TR Propulsion Systems

[Zafer]

Ukrainian aero-derivative marine engines are a viable alternative. LM2500 and LM500 are no doubt the best but it is not critical as in the aircraft development. Aircraft have limited space and you are flying and should achieve a certain aerodynamic performance. You want the best performance, best fuel efficiency because aircraft can carry a limited weight and you want to be mission-ready every time. The worst thing that can happen to a destroyer is to design a bigger fuel tank or it can have a slightly lower range with the same fuel load. You have a vast space. Ships don't need to be combat-ready at every time. Ships go under a cycle of maintenance every year or two. Most of the time you won't even turn on gas turbines and travel with diesel engines at 15-16 knots travel speed.

UGT 25000 | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

Ukrainian engines have 36% whereas GE has 38% efficiency.
Edit: GE claims 38.5%

GAS TURBINE UNITS FOR SURFACE SHIPS | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

 

[nakaFH]

We should not leave working with Ukrainians for aero-derivative marine engines even if GE owned licenced production permited.
Ukrainian engines may not be best effective ones but Ukrainians better partner than Americans.

 

[Sinan]

2019: The kt3200 is in its final stages.
2020: on the last straight.
2021: at the end of the straight.
2022: approached the final line.
2023: we will integrate it into the som missile.
2024: missile test firings.
2025: bla bla
.
.
.
∞

kale failed to do so. I have no more confidence. new engine projects should continue with tei. big or small, it doesn't matter.

Project started back in 2012 and was supposed to finish in 2016.
https://www.invest.gov.tr/tr/news/n...12-turkish-kale-aero-turbojet-production.aspx

The year is 2021, 9 years passed and still there is no deadline for the project. May finish in 2 years or 10 years, only Allah knows.

 

[Quasar]

I belive TEI-TUSAŞ's most important achievement is becoming a part of world wide aerospace industry supply chain which simply provided economic self sufficiency - being a part of almost all major aerospace projects - being a part of contemporary production infrastructure - accessibility to accumulated knowledge .

if there is a question of Ukrainian engines or GE Marine? we should also look the issue from this perspective as well. which one them potanialy allows us to be a part of world wide supply chain? so the issue is never just the engine or its performance.

 

[nakaFH]

Project started back in 2012 and was supposed to finish in 2016.
https://www.invest.gov.tr/tr/news/n...12-turkish-kale-aero-turbojet-production.aspx

The year is 2021, 9 years passed and still there is no deadline for the project. May finish in 2 years or 10 years, only Allah knows.

At that time we were unskilled inexperienced beginner. As though we were driving uphill.
Now got so much experience and geared up. And time to berry the fruits...

 

[Lool]

Project started back in 2012 and was supposed to finish in 2016.
https://www.invest.gov.tr/tr/news/n...12-turkish-kale-aero-turbojet-production.aspx

The year is 2021, 9 years passed and still there is no deadline for the project. May finish in 2 years or 10 years, only Allah knows.

What are you talking about dear friend?
Kale already finished the KTJ 3200 this year and mass production will soon begin this year with the supply of 13 engines at the end of this year; probably December
It is also worth noting that it is 100% domestic; thus, it wont be imposed to embargoes or restrictions
Furthermore, Kale had to develop an engine all by themselves without any support. On the other hand, TEI had GE behind it to provide it with basic know how.... so give the poor souls some consideration for their unwavering will in the past 9 years and millions that were spent in R&D. They did also state that they are developing 2 more engines based on the KTJ 3200 so it should be faster to produce

Turkish firm to produce domestic missile engines | Local News

Kale to start mass production of engines this year

m.yenisafak.com

 

[Lonewolf]

Ukrainian aero-derivative marine engines are a viable alternative. LM2500 and LM500 are no doubt the best but it is not critical as in the aircraft development. Aircraft have limited space and you are flying and should achieve a certain aerodynamic performance. You want the best performance, best fuel efficiency because aircraft can carry a limited weight and you want to be mission-ready every time. The worst thing that can happen to a destroyer is to design a bigger fuel tank or it can have a slightly lower range with the same fuel load. You have a vast space. Ships don't need to be combat-ready at every time. Ships go under a cycle of maintenance every year or two. Most of the time you won't even turn on gas turbines and travel with diesel engines at 15-16 knots travel speed.

UGT 25000 | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

One thing i would like to add is maintenance , rr and ge are famous for low maintenance ,as a old customer of zorya ,india knows the havoc maintenance issues can cause .

That's why dealing with Ukraine for co deveolpment , turkey should focus only and only on maintenance issues , it should reliable as ge or rr .

 

[nakaFH]

One thing i would like to add is maintenance , rr and ge are famous for low maintenance ,as a old customer of zorya ,india knows the havoc maintenance issues can cause .

That's why dealing with Ukraine for co deveolpment , turkey should focus only and only on maintenance issues , it should reliable as ge or rr .

Maybe the production method changed from super alloy to single crystal turbine blade. And also better shaft bearing with resistance to heat and high quality lubrication.

 

[Spook]

Chinese Type 052 is the best case study for Zorya, GE comparison. They got embargoed, only able to fit 2 Type 052s with LM2500. Preceding ships used UGT-25000 and QC280, UGT variant assembled in China. There is articles comparing engines. Issues of UGT etc. If we have someone who knows Chinese can get us some better articles from better source. Google translate limits. Try using Baidu if you want to look yourself. India is an biggest Zorya engine user. So Indian articles would be good too.

 

[Sinan]

At that time we were unskilled inexperienced beginner. As though we were driving uphill.
Now got so much experience and geared up. And time to berry the fruits...

Engineering is no such thing. It's not like a driver getting experience with driving thousands of miles. It's about establishing test rigs and doing tests on the materials you produced (like TEI does, KaleAero doesn't have such capabilities). To recruit key people and plan a good organization scheme. To establish a managable calender for the project. Establishing production chain and developing necessary process technology.
To date, Kale failed badly.

What are you talking about dear friend?
Kale already finished the KTJ 3200 this year and mass production will soon begin this year with the supply of 13 engines at the end of this year; probably December
It is also worth noting that it is 100% domestic; thus, it wont be imposed to embargoes or restrictions
Furthermore, Kale had to develop an engine all by themselves without any support. On the other hand, TEI had GE behind it to provide it with basic know how.... so give the poor souls some consideration for their unwavering will in the past 9 years and millions that were spent in R&D. They did also state that they are developing 2 more engines based on the KTJ 3200 so it should be faster to produce

Turkish firm to produce domestic missile engines | Local News

Kale to start mass production of engines this year

m.yenisafak.com

Forget yenişafak a.k.a. government propaganda for shallow minds.

Here read this. It's also from government media AA.

Milli turbojet motora yenileri eklenecek

Türk savunma sanayisinin ihtiyaçları için KTJ-3200 Milli Turbojet Motoru'nu geliştiren Kale Arge, kazandığı bilgi birikimi ve tecrübeyle yeni turbojet motor projeleri için kolları sıvadı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

They say they have done "internal qualifications". Which means that they have tested the engine on a rig to see if they are complying with the project requirements. After that there will be a qualification phase for the Army and SSB on a rig. After that they will integrate engine to the missile and do another qualification phase. If everything goes well, development phase will end and SSB will open a procurement tender for the engine, after that they will go into serial production phase.

And I'm not giving a tiny consideration to them. If my company had done work like them we would have gone bankrupt. A 5+ years delay in a 4 year project is not acceptable any where in the world.

Let this be a lesson for SSB. IMO, for the next engine. They should give R&D money to both TEI and Kale. Give them 2 years and after 2 years evaluate their advance and award the project to the one that made the most advancement.

Maybe the production method changed from super alloy to single crystal turbine blade. And also better shaft bearing with resistance to heat and high quality lubrication.

Bro..... you mishmashed everything.....

 

[nakaFH]

Engineering is no such thing. It's not like a driver getting experience with driving thousands of miles. It's about establishing test rigs and doing tests on the materials you produced (lie TEI does, KaleAero doesn't have such capabilities). To recruit and plan a good organization scheme. To establish a managable calender for the project. Establishing production chain and developing necessary process technology.
To date, Kale failed badly.

Forget yenişafak a.k.a. government propaganda for shallow minds.

Here read this. It's also from government media AA.

Milli turbojet motora yenileri eklenecek

Türk savunma sanayisinin ihtiyaçları için KTJ-3200 Milli Turbojet Motoru'nu geliştiren Kale Arge, kazandığı bilgi birikimi ve tecrübeyle yeni turbojet motor projeleri için kolları sıvadı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

They say they have done "internal qualifications". Which means that they have tested the engine on a rig to see if they are complying with the project requirements. After that there will be a qualification phase for the Army and SSB on a rig. After that they will integrate engine to the missile and do another qualification phase. If everything goes well, development phase will end and SSB will open a procurement tender for the engine, after that they will go into serial production phase.

And I'm not giving a tiny consideration to them. If my company had done work like them we would have gone bankrupt. A 5+ years delay in a 4 year project is not acceptable any where in the world.

Let this be a lesson for SSB. IMO, for the next engine. They should give R&D money to both TEI and Kale. Give them 2 years and after 2 years evaluate their advance and award the project to the one that made the most advancement.



Bro..... you mishmashed everything.....

It seems that you know everthing better than everbody.

 

[Sinan]

Okay forum members , I think you know basics about SCBs , thrrr are first generation , then second generation ( with cooling vanes and about 1200°c + temp bearing ) , then thrid gen ( likes of used in ej 200 ,ge 414 with temperature bearing in range of 1450-1750°c ,) coated with ceramic , cooled with vanes and edge cooling ) .

Fourth gen are the likes of used in f135 , 119 ,136 ,136 . Having temperature in range of 2000°c , material used are quite superior , sometimes ceramic based , top notch tech , only usa have it (but won't be hard to develop for any experienced player like RR , etc ) .

Then comes ceramic composite matrix with crramic composite fibres ,with a fixed graim size (used for f xx engine , by modifying f 135 engine , adaptive cycle engine ) ace engine increase temperature in core due to increased airflow on requirements .





.turkey is on second gen , reaching third gen almost , you need to reach 4 gen atleast . And if goal is 5th gen tech ,then get ready to spend 15 +years and 10 billion plus , as except ge no one has accomplished that feat , not European nor japanese , leave alone ruskies .

You were not aware that Turkey was producing SCBs a few posts ago and now you are making bold statements about Turkey's production capabilities... Nobody in this thread will take you for serious with this attitude.

 

[Sinan]

It seems that you know everthing better than everbody.

Nope, i just don't talk about the subjects that i don't know and try to learn about them. That's all.

 

[nakaFH]

Engineering is no such thing. It's not like a driver getting experience with driving thousands of miles. It's about establishing test rigs and doing tests on the materials you produced (lie TEI does, KaleAero doesn't have such capabilities). To recruit and plan a good organization scheme. To establish a managable calender for the project. Establishing production chain and developing necessary process technology.
To date, Kale failed badly.

Forget yenişafak a.k.a. government propaganda for shallow minds.

Here read this. It's also from government media AA.

Milli turbojet motora yenileri eklenecek

Türk savunma sanayisinin ihtiyaçları için KTJ-3200 Milli Turbojet Motoru'nu geliştiren Kale Arge, kazandığı bilgi birikimi ve tecrübeyle yeni turbojet motor projeleri için kolları sıvadı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

They say they have done "internal qualifications". Which means that they have tested the engine on a rig to see if they are complying with the project requirements. After that there will be a qualification phase for the Army and SSB on a rig. After that they will integrate engine to the missile and do another qualification phase. If everything goes well, development phase will end and SSB will open a procurement tender for the engine, after that they will go into serial production phase.

And I'm not giving a tiny consideration to them. If my company had done work like them we would have gone bankrupt. A 5+ years delay in a 4 year project is not acceptable any where in the world.

Let this be a lesson for SSB. IMO, for the next engine. They should give R&D money to both TEI and Kale. Give them 2 years and after 2 years evaluate their advance and award the project to the one that made the most advancement.



Bro..... you mishmashed everything.....

Have you ever use or being system engineer on any turbine engine? Do you know performance problems?
Have you ever heard lubrication heat problem originating from bearings and seals and insufficient cooling and trouble shootings? And detail blade abrasion limits and repair? Have you ever seen any turbine engine in pieces?
Have you ever inspect any crashed craft and prepare technical report?
Please feel free here is fullfill of valuable staff...

 

[Nilgiri]

1% better efficiency is not something to get stuck on too much.

The meantime between overhaul should be considered first (as this shows what the total realised resistance to creep in hot section etc is like).

For Zorya family it is around 30,000 hours

For LM2500 family it is around 50,000 hours.

(For hot section only, I believe its around half of each respectively, i.e needs to be looked at specifically about twice as much...overall works out to be the same phenomenon).

Also bearing in mind MTBO is the largest number (of hours)....below it are things like times between failure and times between anomalies etc....that may or may not require downtimes at higher frequency....that can be inferred relatively speaking from the MTBO larger threshold.

Of course it can be mitigated by having a number of spare gas turbines on the ready but of course it doesnt change the overall frequency of the ship being in the MRO facility.

i.e for every 5 downtimes Zorya faces, its only 3 for LM2500 (in the overhaul context, but lot more frequent for the minor issues). How does that impact readiness for the platforms (and their respective relative crucial nature to overall force level you want to have).

It needs to be considered especially when efficiency (and thrust/weight etc) are basically the same more or less and not too crucial in marine setting compared to aviation.

Both for (direct) use and for the reference threshold you want to develop indigenously.

 

[Sinan]

Have you ever use or being system engineer on any turbine engine? Do you know performance problems?
Have you ever heard lubrication heat problem originating from bearings and seals and insufficient cooling and trouble shootings? And detail blade abrasion limits and repair? Have you ever seen any turbine engine in pieces?
Have you ever inspect any crashed craft and prepare technical report?
Please feel free here is fullfill of valuable staff...

Are you going to offer me a job?

"method changed from super alloy to single crystal turbine blade" bro, if you are saying this, it shows that your knowledge is not good.

Instead of questioning my knowledge (which would add nothing to you) it would be better if you read the article below.

The Noble Quran - Quran.com

The Quran translated into many languages in a simple and easy interface

defence.pk

 

[nakaFH]

Are you going to offer me a job?

"method changed from super alloy to single crystal turbine blade" bro, if you are saying this, it shows that your knowledge is not good.

Instead of questioning my knowledge (which would add nothing to you) it would be better if you read the article below.

The Noble Quran - Quran.com

The Quran translated into many languages in a simple and easy interface

defence.pk

Gentlemen, I meant to manufacture power turbine blade by the method of used old eastern block countries using forged super alloys with a special method excluding single crystal blade. And we achieved single crystal turbine blade increasing heat and creep resistance wrt Super alloys esp. in TS1400 engine by TUBITAK MAM till to aprox. 1400 °C that is not best but good enough for begining.

And when we come to subject of driving car uphill is only simile for begining of difficult projects with less knowledge and experience has small accelereration maybe zero or minus.
Then after getting basic experience rest is not frightining and generaly fluidy.

Anyway way of speaking is important. Should not behave like nude soldiers respect all friends opinions and have right the expectance from the dear counterparts.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It is a well known fact that apart form the propeller cavitation noise, the engine noise is one of the main sources of noise generated by warships. In the world of stealthy and silent ships, it is imperative that we have to design and produce our naval vessels so that we have as quiet a ship as we can get.
Diesel engines are big noise creators. Gas turbines are much quieter, compared to their diesel counterparts. GE gas turbines are probably the quietest in the market. So when building a ship these parameters need to be addressed as well.

 

[Anmdt]

It is a well known fact that apart form the propeller cavitation noise, the engine noise is one of the main sources of noise generated by warships. In the world of stealthy and silent ships, it is imperative that we have to design and produce our naval vessels so that we have as quiet a ship as we can get.
Diesel engines are big noise creators. Gas turbines are much quieter, compared to their diesel counterparts. GE gas turbines are probably the quietest in the market. So when building a ship these parameters need to be addressed as well.

GE has a special enclosure made for the turbine itself that minimizes the airborne noise, and they ship it with a foundation that is equipped with absorbers known to best isolate the engine from the hull. They also follow the installation and they work with tight tolerances during installation of the shaft.
Also GE ensures, within the tolerance of a shock wave the engine remains unaffected.
So in overall, GE does anything to make the silence and operation possible, however for Zorya i doubt this, most of the job is left to the operator. If operator is willing to use the gas turbine for long term like China or India, they invest in, create their own solutions as much as possible.

Also in applications that involve single gas turbine a wise operator wouldn't use an engine with double chance to encounter a failure and almost double maintenance interval. If you carefully look those turbines are always used in dual or 2+2 configuration to minimize the risk.

So in the end you don't know what happens at the sea, you are always prepared for the worst of the worst that includes a war breaking out at once and using gas turbine or going beyond a speed becomes a necessity, unlike an aircraft carrying a single or two pilots at most, a ship carries a hundred by at least 20 being creme de la creme officers. You can abandon a jet, you can not abandon a warship with that kind of ease.*

A warship operators for a year sometimes,uniterrupted, a fighter jet at most for 12 -16 hours, at most. Now combine the chances of encountering a risk.

*You would notice in some documents there is a note attached " high survivability ". This term includes a load of situations and cross/cumulative combinations of them.

 

[mulj]

as layman person i can conclude, ukraina bad, ge good, ditch the ukrainians. as nothing happened before with usa supply chain...