TR Propulsion Systems

[Lonewolf]

Be careful with the words you choose while expressing your issues you want to talk about and the defficiencies you imagine. On this platform, members communicate with respect and good conversation but you are speaking completely imaginary, provocative and with false thoughts without knowing about Turkey's works. Nobody said that they will develop a turbofan in 5-6 years. Turkey has been working on this engine for 2-3 years and many metallurgical projects are running together. There is a partnership with Ukraine on engine design too. The targeted date for mass production is 2030-2031. Connecting all your assumptions to the subject of time, you are not aware of even the simplest issues but when it is time to talk, you make very assertive statements with such generalizations. I don't think you are a well-intentioned member regarding these matters. You don't ask anything to reach the truths, you're just judging without knowing the truths.

I am basing my argument on statement that production model will be powered by domestic engine . So for that engine needs to complete it's development in 2027 , so that multiple flight test can be done for certification .

 

[Yasar_TR]

Appreciation is all fine ,till it is for tyrboshaft of 1500 kw class , above that blades will melt .

You talk as if no one knows what you are talking about. TEI is currently producing 238 T700 helicopter engines for GE. More than 60% of this engine is being produced locally including the turbine blades. This is is a 2000shp engine and the TEI engines carry GE badges on them. So they know what they are doing.
MD of TEI is an ex GE guy. Educated in MIT and a professor in his field. He personally said that at TEI, they have the capability of producing complete F110GE129 and 132 engines including all the hot parts. (They have previously produced these engines in house albeit with imported turbine blades. But now they are at a level of competence to go it alone) .
GE knows this so can’t afford to let TEI go it alone in engine manufacturing with their 49% stake in TEI.
Before you make unsubstantiated claims about what TEI can do and can’t do, please look in to it in detail.

 

[iceream]

Gökbey Utility Helicopter is as I recall it going to be flying with domestic TS engine. I think it was the TS1400.

Gökbey Utility Helicopter - Google Search

This?
What engines attack helicopters will use?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Gökbey Utility Helicopter - Google Search

This?
What engines attack helicopters will use?

T129 is using CTS800 Honeywell. But the proposed replacement , T626 probably will use militarised TS1400.
T929 will initially be using Ukrainian MotorSich engine shown here two days ago. In serial production though a 3000hp engine (TS3000) will be flying this helicopter.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Very good interview with Prof Aksit.
He explains about the mid section of the 2000shp T700 engine. How TEI engineers managed to produce a 300+ piece mid section unit with a 3D printer as a single piece. This in it’s own right is a groundbreaking technological advancement of Turkish turbine engine building. Current Turkish T700 helicopters are having their engines with this mid section.

@Lonewolf for your benefit: He once again reiterates that as TEI they can manufacture much larger engines. And that they know the difficulties that come with when manufacturing larger engines.

 

[Lonewolf]

I

Very good interview with Prof Aksit.
He explains about the mid section of the 2000shp T700 engine. How TEI engineers managed to produce a 300+ piece mid section unit with a 3D printer as a single piece. This in it’s own right is a groundbreaking technological advancement of Turkish turbine engine building. Current Turkish T700 helicopters are having their engines with this mid section.
View attachment 28897
@Lonewolf for your benefit: He once again reiterates that as TEI they can manufacture much larger engines. And that they know the difficulties that come with when manufacturing larger engines.

It's turboshaft buddy , and they aren't single crystal blade ,the main challenge is SCBs .

They know difficulties ,means they know what to do ,but they haven't done it yet , it will take time to reach the level required and lots and lots of money , whole rnd and production can reach 6 billion+ easily ,not including any issue propping up (hope it don't happen ) , which might means back to square one if issue is big .

These things take time and efforts , this will be litmus test of whole turkish aerospace ecosystem involved in this project

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I

It's turboshaft buddy , and they aren't single crystal blade ,the main challenge is SCBs .

They know difficulties ,means they know what to do ,but they haven't done it yet , it will take time to reach the level required and lots and lots of money , whole rnd and production can reach 6 billion+ easily ,not including any issue propping up (hope it don't happen ) , which might means back to square one if issue is big .

These things take time and efforts , this will be litmus test of whole turkish aerospace ecosystem involved in this project

Turkish turboshaft engine TS1400 have single crystal blades. Those are the serial production SCB delivered to TEI.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I

It's turboshaft buddy , and they aren't single crystal blade ,the main challenge is SCBs .

They know difficulties ,means they know what to do ,but they haven't done it yet , it will take time to reach the level required and lots and lots of money , whole rnd and production can reach 6 billion+ easily ,not including any issue propping up (hope it don't happen ) , which might means back to square one if issue is big .

These things take time and efforts , this will be litmus test of whole turkish aerospace ecosystem involved in this project

What you are writing clearly shows that you are stuck like record player on the same thing and don’t seem to understand or don’t want to understand that TEI uses single crystal blades on both TS1400 and T700.
By the way ; I am not you “buddy” !

 

[Lonewolf]

What you are writing clearly shows that you are stuck like record player on the same thing and don’t seem to understand or don’t want to understand that TEI uses single crystal blades on both TS1400 and T700.
By the way ; I am not you “buddy” !

Okay forum members , I think you know basics about SCBs , thrrr are first generation , then second generation ( with cooling vanes and about 1200°c + temp bearing ) , then thrid gen ( likes of used in ej 200 ,ge 414 with temperature bearing in range of 1450-1750°c ,) coated with ceramic , cooled with vanes and edge cooling ) .

Fourth gen are the likes of used in f135 , 119 ,136 ,136 . Having temperature in range of 2000°c , material used are quite superior , sometimes ceramic based , top notch tech , only usa have it (but won't be hard to develop for any experienced player like RR , etc ) .

Then comes ceramic composite matrix with crramic composite fibres ,with a fixed graim size (used for f xx engine , by modifying f 135 engine , adaptive cycle engine ) ace engine increase temperature in core due to increased airflow on requirements .





.turkey is on second gen , reaching third gen almost , you need to reach 4 gen atleast . And if goal is 5th gen tech ,then get ready to spend 15 +years and 10 billion plus , as except ge no one has accomplished that feat , not European nor japanese , leave alone ruskies .

 

[Zafer]

Okay forum members , I think you know basics about SCBs , thrrr are first generation , then second generation ( with cooling vanes and about 1200°c + temp bearing ) , then thrid gen ( likes of used in ej 200 ,ge 414 with temperature bearing in range of 1450-1750°c ,) coated with ceramic , cooled with vanes and edge cooling ) .

Fourth gen are the likes of used in f135 , 119 ,136 ,136 . Having temperature in range of 2000°c , material used are quite superior , sometimes ceramic based , top notch tech , only usa have it (but won't be hard to develop for any experienced player like RR , etc ) .

Then comes ceramic composite matrix with crramic composite fibres ,with a fixed graim size (used for f xx engine , by modifying f 135 engine , adaptive cycle engine ) ace engine increase temperature in core due to increased airflow on requirements .





.turkey is on second gen , reaching third gen almost , you need to reach 4 gen atleast . And if goal is 5th gen tech ,then get ready to spend 15 +years and 10 billion plus , as except ge no one has accomplished that feat , not European nor japanese , leave alone ruskies .

We never settle.

 

[Anmdt]

Okay forum members , I think you know basics about SCBs , thrrr are first generation , then second generation ( with cooling vanes and about 1200°c + temp bearing ) , then thrid gen ( likes of used in ej 200 ,ge 414 with temperature bearing in range of 1450-1750°c ,) coated with ceramic , cooled with vanes and edge cooling ) .

Fourth gen are the likes of used in f135 , 119 ,136 ,136 . Having temperature in range of 2000°c , material used are quite superior , sometimes ceramic based , top notch tech , only usa have it (but won't be hard to develop for any experienced player like RR , etc ) .

Then comes ceramic composite matrix with crramic composite fibres ,with a fixed graim size (used for f xx engine , by modifying f 135 engine , adaptive cycle engine ) ace engine increase temperature in core due to increased airflow on requirements .





.turkey is on second gen , reaching third gen almost , you need to reach 4 gen atleast . And if goal is 5th gen tech ,then get ready to spend 15 +years and 10 billion plus , as except ge no one has accomplished that feat , not European nor japanese , leave alone ruskies .

Are you aware you somehow started to talk about TF engines while trying to talk about TS engines?
Moreover are you aware the T700 is in fact not a Turkish engine but an engine which is origination from a source you have glorified and TEI is producing a portion of it?
We all know where are we at, at least we know we are not on 2nd grade as you have claimed and we all know it takes time, again if you spared sometime and read forum you would happen to realize the engine (TS1400) has a schedule for certification for about 4-5 years while other engines has a longer span + there is a certain amount allocated for R&D.

Imo, just cool down. Take your time, read the forum, see Turkey is not aiming to make F414 next year and make it fly, in fact there is a sound schedule with a sound background prepared by experienced advisors from Tubitak & SSB & TEI.

SCB project dates back, at least, 10 years if i can recall correctly, it did mature 3 years ago and they have jumped to next step already. So there is a track and it is going on.

 

[Nilgiri]

I

It's turboshaft buddy , and they aren't single crystal blade ,the main challenge is SCBs .

They know difficulties ,means they know what to do ,but they haven't done it yet , it will take time to reach the level required and lots and lots of money , whole rnd and production can reach 6 billion+ easily ,not including any issue propping up (hope it don't happen ) , which might means back to square one if issue is big .

These things take time and efforts , this will be litmus test of whole turkish aerospace ecosystem involved in this project

This is deja-vu, its all been discussed before at length in this thread.

Point is Turkey has the capital machinery, understanding of the process flow and the higher management to handle it.

Results are bearing fruit in the pyramid process to get to apex (as it relates to the big 3 there) at their scale they want to take forward this decade.

i.e all the elements of the ecosystem and there has been debate here already on the timelines and what basis it has.

They have number of advantages and leverages regarding this compared to non-NATO countries....stretching back manner of decades even.

This is not some amateur speculation forum.

Things are not omnipresent to make judgement calls to some extreme to begin with.

Hence this thread and others are to piece together the information and let people reference/debate in relevant way....rather than come in with too much tone either way (fail or success).

Its sometimes best to simply see how it goes...and give benefit of any doubt to people that have participated longer in the debate (if you do not want to read through it yourself).

I don't see your point to throw cold water on this like you are doing here and in TFX thread.

 

[what]

Very good interview with Prof Aksit.
He explains about the mid section of the 2000shp T700 engine. How TEI engineers managed to produce a 300+ piece mid section unit with a 3D printer as a single piece. This in it’s own right is a groundbreaking technological advancement of Turkish turbine engine building. Current Turkish T700 helicopters are having their engines with this mid section.
View attachment 28897
@Lonewolf for your benefit: He once again reiterates that as TEI they can manufacture much larger engines. And that they know the difficulties that come with when manufacturing larger engines.

What projects and engines is he not allowed to speak about?

Which engines will go into serial production for which products? That video made me feel good but you know, now I need to know.

 

[Profchaos]

What projects and engines is he not allowed to speak about?

Which engines will go into serial production for which products? That video made me feel good but you know, now I need to know.

PG 50 and PG 115 are two of the three i guess. For Kargi and Herons respectively

 

[Abdelaziz]

PG 50 and PG 115 are two of the three i guess. For Kargi and Herons respectively

Pd170

 

[Yasar_TR]

Okay forum members , I think you know basics about SCBs , thrrr are first generation , then second generation ( with cooling vanes and about 1200°c + temp bearing ) , then thrid gen ( likes of used in ej 200 ,ge 414 with temperature bearing in range of 1450-1750°c ,) coated with ceramic , cooled with vanes and edge cooling ) .

Fourth gen are the likes of used in f135 , 119 ,136 ,136 . Having temperature in range of 2000°c , material used are quite superior , sometimes ceramic based , top notch tech , only usa have it (but won't be hard to develop for any experienced player like RR , etc ) .

Then comes ceramic composite matrix with crramic composite fibres ,with a fixed graim size (used for f xx engine , by modifying f 135 engine , adaptive cycle engine ) ace engine increase temperature in core due to increased airflow on requirements .





.turkey is on second gen , reaching third gen almost , you need to reach 4 gen atleast . And if goal is 5th gen tech ,then get ready to spend 15 +years and 10 billion plus , as except ge no one has accomplished that feat , not European nor japanese , leave alone ruskies .

Maximum temperatures in a gas turbine are seen in the flame tube of the combustor and then at the turbine inlet. State-of-the- art is about 1800 K which is 1527 degrees Celsius.
If you are working with 1500 degrees Class turbines you are at the top level.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries managed to achieve 1600 degrees Celsius which was classed as the highest ever in 2011.
It is a fact that the higher the temperature of turbines the more efficient they are. But with it comes the problems.
Yes F135 turbine inlet temperatures reach 1980 degrees Celsius. But just look at the engine troubles they are having. Look at the number of F35 planes waiting for new engines because P&W can’t produce enough blades in time to supply all the problem F135’s.
Same goes for 40+ Boeing Dreamliner planes grounded because RR can’t produce enough blades to fit on to the Trent-1000 engines that work at up to 2200Kelvin (1920 degrees C) .
So too high a temperature is not always good news and it definitely is not a sign of superlative engine. Sustainability of high temperatures on demand is the key.
Russian AL31F has max turbine inlet temperatures of 1472 degrees C.
AL41F has 1642 degrees C maximum turbine inlet temperatures.
Yet these two engines use directionally solidified super alloy turbine blades. OK their engine life cycles are shorter than western counterparts’. So what? They power some of the most formidable fighter planes in the world.
So horses for courses.
We are not aiming for a F135 or F136
If TEI can produce a f110GE132 equivalent with a thrust level of 32-35000lbf , that will suffice. TFX for the time being doesn’t need more. TEI Managing Director has said they can produce this engine in the given timeframe. So the rest of the argument is unnecessary.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. Global Website | MHI Achieves 1,600°C Turbine Inlet Temperature in Test Operation of

Tokyo, May 26, 2011 - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. (MHI) has achieved the world's highest turbine inlet temperature of 1,600 degrees Celsius (°C), with the company's most advanced

www.mhi.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

What projects and engines is he not allowed to speak about?

Which engines will go into serial production for which products? That video made me feel good but you know, now I need to know.

I want to know too.
But If I were to guess:
TFX and Hurjet motor developments?
MIUS tf6000 development?
A turbofan engine for Gezgin?
pg50 & Pg115 ?
TF141 with Ukraine?

 

[Abdelaziz]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427687028100042752

What is power group used ?
Could this be a solution ?
Could it be tried with altay ?

 

[Lonewolf]

Are you aware you somehow started to talk about TF engines while trying to talk about TS engines?
Moreover are you aware the T700 is in fact not a Turkish engine but an engine which is origination from a source you have glorified and TEI is producing a portion of it?
We all know where are we at, at least we know we are not on 2nd grade as you have claimed and we all know it takes time, again if you spared sometime and read forum you would happen to realize the engine (TS1400) has a schedule for certification for about 4-5 years while other engines has a longer span + there is a certain amount allocated for R&D.

Imo, just cool down. Take your time, read the forum, see Turkey is not aiming to make F414 next year and make it fly, in fact there is a sound schedule with a sound background prepared by experienced advisors from Tubitak & SSB & TEI.

SCB project dates back, at least, 10 years if i can recall correctly, it did mature 3 years ago and they have jumped to next step already. So there is a track and it is going on.

I am well aware what i am talking about , i am talking about technology of blades and core , i didn't said it's bad ,but i said it won't be good for the thrust requirements for tfx with the advertised range .

And the sound schedule you are talking about is on the optimistic side , companies always do that , the schedule in worst case scenario is never revealed , so chill down .

Delays are part of development , and over optimistic nature never helps .

Over praising some achivement is never good .

Turkey did a good job but now on problems will be much higher and timeline might get a bit .... streched sometimes

 

[Lonewolf]

Maximum temperatures in a gas turbine are seen in the flame tube of the combustor and then at the turbine inlet. State-of-the- art is about 1800 K which is 1527 degrees Celsius.
If you are working with 1500 degrees Class turbines you are at the top level.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries managed to achieve 1600 degrees Celsius which was classed as the highest ever in 2011.
It is a fact that the higher the temperature of turbines the more efficient they are. But with it comes the problems.
Yes F135 turbine inlet temperatures reach 1980 degrees Celsius. But just look at the engine troubles they are having. Look at the number of F35 planes waiting for new engines because P&W can’t produce enough blades in time to supply all the problem F135’s.
Same goes for 40+ Boeing Dreamliner planes grounded because RR can’t produce enough blades to fit on to the Trent-1000 engines that work at up to 2200Kelvin (1920 degrees C) .
So too high a temperature is not always good news and it definitely is not a sign of superlative engine. Sustainability of high temperatures on demand is the key.
Russian AL31F has max turbine inlet temperatures of 1472 degrees C.
AL41F has 1642 degrees C maximum turbine inlet temperatures.
Yet these two engines use directionally solidified super alloy turbine blades. OK their engine life cycles are shorter than western counterparts’. So what? They power some of the most formidable fighter planes in the world.
So horses for courses.
We are not aiming for a F135 or F136
If TEI can produce a f110GE132 equivalent with a thrust level of 32-35000lbf , that will suffice. TFX for the time being doesn’t need more. TEI Managing Director has said they can produce this engine in the given timeframe. So the rest of the argument is unnecessary.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. Global Website | MHI Achieves 1,600°C Turbine Inlet Temperature in Test Operation of

Tokyo, May 26, 2011 - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. (MHI) has achieved the world's highest turbine inlet temperature of 1,600 degrees Celsius (°C), with the company's most advanced

www.mhi.com

Nope mitsubishi engine aren't the top of line .

And issues in delivery timeline are not related to engine quality , don't just type anything for sake of reply .

And ds blades can be good for a certain level of scb but they have tgeir limitations , in scb limitations are present too but at higher temperatures .

And f110 is a older design , non stealth engine , good for thrust but not for stealth