TR Propulsion Systems

[Anmdt]

Zorya vs GE in a nutshell:

Both companies are contacted by a respactable Turkish company for possible use of their engines on a platform to be introduced that has already caught attention of some countries, possible orders exceeding 20. (Totaling 60+ engines including spares)

GE:
Returned in a few days, assigned a senior engineer and one representative without even an MoU and shared all necessary details in a cooperative manner, going through meetings weekly.
Signed MoU with TEI later.

Zorya:
Ignoring their earlier failures to negotiate some deals, this is how they handled the request.

No response in a week (nothing at all)
High level online meeting to discuss and deliver the required information sets.
A month passes, no response at all. Contacted and the reply was "working on that"
2 months have passed still no replies. Meanwhile integration of GE is done and moving on with detailing procedures.

Not even going deep into technical matters, moreover the fact they havent made a solid plan for ToT and local production in Turkey. Discussed a year ago and they havent advanced an inch and dragging a leg for meetings.

Meanwhile all DzKK, SSB and design companies are assured by GE's performance and Zorya being reluctant on inviting Turkish representative in a live demonstration to prove their claims.

I am not detailing this further, informations are from first hand and pretty much known in the circle of marine industry and naval forces.

Guesses on why, mostly based on open source data with only knowledge of one of the possible export destination:
The export destination is hostile to one of the main Zorya customer, thus either they are trying to keep that customer or under pressure by them (the chances are high with the first option).
That possible export destination of the Turkish platform is also interested in use or Zorya engine to cut the costs in their larger platforms.
At the moment Zorya has chance to penetrate into two markets through Turkish products, one of them is not introduced with gas turbines as of now and intrigued by the idea of having them as the supplier.

 

[Zafer]

Turkish builders' market is probably large enough to start a national marine turbine engine program. Our industry needs to act faster, perhaps needs some push from higher levels.

 

[TheInsider]

how could that be? One is turboshaft, the other is turbofan

Both can be developed from the same core.

 

[Spook]

Zorya vs GE in a nutshell:

Both companies are contacted by a respactable Turkish company for possible use of their engines on a platform to be introduced that has already caught attention of some countries, possible orders exceeding 20. (Totaling 60+ engines including spares)

GE:
Returned in a few days, assigned a senior engineer and one representative without even an MoU and shared all necessary details in a cooperative manner, going through meetings weekly.
Signed MoU with TEI later.

Zorya:
Ignoring their earlier failures to negotiate some deals, this is how they handled the request.

No response in a week (nothing at all)
High level online meeting to discuss and deliver the required information sets.
A month passes, no response at all. Contacted and the reply was "working on that"
2 months have passed still no replies. Meanwhile integration of GE is done and moving on with detailing procedures.

Not even going deep into technical matters, moreover the fact they havent made a solid plan for ToT and local production in Turkey. Discussed a year ago and they havent advanced an inch and dragging a leg for meetings.

Meanwhile all DzKK, SSB and design companies are assured by GE's performance and Zorya being reluctant on inviting Turkish representative in a live demonstration to prove their claims.

I am not detailing this further, informations are from first hand and pretty much known in the circle of marine industry and naval forces.

Doing business with Russians also like this. Lack of documentation. Visiting engineers for providing design assistance etc. not common. Not to forget the companies are state-owned and not performing financially well. They try to offer useless things before even going forward, in search for operating money, internal consumption material etc.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Zorya vs GE in a nutshell:

Both companies are contacted by a respactable Turkish company for possible use of their engines on a platform to be introduced that has already caught attention of some countries, possible orders exceeding 20. (Totaling 60+ engines including spares)

GE:
Returned in a few days, assigned a senior engineer and one representative without even an MoU and shared all necessary details in a cooperative manner, going through meetings weekly.
Signed MoU with TEI later.

Zorya:
Ignoring their earlier failures to negotiate some deals, this is how they handled the request.

No response in a week (nothing at all)
High level online meeting to discuss and deliver the required information sets.
A month passes, no response at all. Contacted and the reply was "working on that"
2 months have passed still no replies. Meanwhile integration of GE is done and moving on with detailing procedures.

Not even going deep into technical matters, moreover the fact they havent made a solid plan for ToT and local production in Turkey. Discussed a year ago and they havent advanced an inch and dragging a leg for meetings.

Meanwhile all DzKK, SSB and design companies are assured by GE's performance and Zorya being reluctant on inviting Turkish representative in a live demonstration to prove their claims.

I am not detailing this further, informations are from first hand and pretty much known in the circle of marine industry and naval forces.

Jus to add to you comments:
If one looks at on line about what Zorya shows for their gas turbine and what GE shows, it is clear who is superior to whom.
GE clearly knows the importance of quiet running and makes a point of specifying it as 85dbA and that with their latest products they have improved on it by 60%.
Yet Zorya doesn’t even bother to mention it. GE houses their turbines in special sound proofed compact containers. Zorya equivalent is in the open.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/whitepaper/Competing%20Manufacturers%20of%20Marine%20Gas%20Turbines.pdf

Industrial equipment platform for buyers, suppliers and service providers

Linquip is an equipment-based, industrial platform that brings experts, manufacturers, service providers, and customers together to create an equipment centered network.

www.linquip.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

 

[Combat-Master]

Jus to add to you comments:
If one looks at on line about what Zorya shows for their gas turbine and what GE shows, it is clear who is superior to whom.
GE clearly knows the importance of quiet running and makes a point of specifying it as 85dbA and that with their latest products they have improved on it by 60%.
Yet Zorya doesn’t even bother to mention it. GE houses their turbines in special sound proofed compact containers. Zorya equivalent is in the open.

View attachment 34974

View attachment 34975

https://www.forecastinternational.com/whitepaper/Competing%20Manufacturers%20of%20Marine%20Gas%20Turbines.pdf

Industrial equipment platform for buyers, suppliers and service providers

Linquip is an equipment-based, industrial platform that brings experts, manufacturers, service providers, and customers together to create an equipment centered network.

www.linquip.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

I don't think this is any indicator of who is superior in this sector; GE is a world-renowned producer of turbine products they hire the best because they can afford the best - doesn't matter how old tech their gas turbines are.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I don't think this is any indicator of who is superior in this sector; GE is a world-renowned producer of turbine products they hire the best because they can afford the best - doesn't matter how old tech their gas turbines are.

When we buy a car we look at the brand and what that brand is offering to us. At the end of the day a Ford Focus takes you from A to B the same time on a speed limited street as an S-Class Mercedes. But the comfort and safety wise we prefer the latter.
When it comes to warships, the importance of propulsion is not just how cheap it is or it’s pure power. Important point is, how dependable and sustainable the power delivery is. More importantly how much emphasis the propulsion manufacturer is giving on modern warship requirements like quietness of propulsion to help ship’s survivability. For the end user it is also most important how much the manufacturer is behind it’s product.
Do you think if China had access to GE gas turbines they would still be interested in Zorya Mashproekt products?
Both China and India have an advantage though; they both have licenses to produce these turbines in house. They could easily overcome some of the shortcomings by adding their own design and technical inputs.
Zorya had the opportunity with Turkey too. But it seems that they weren’t professional enough to further the joint venture we were looking to achieve with them. Had that become a reality the definition of superiority would change too!

 

[Combat-Master]

When we buy a car we look at the brand and what that brand is offering to us. At the end of the day a Ford Focus takes you from A to B the same time on a speed limited street as an S-Class Mercedes. But the comfort and safety wise we prefer the latter.
When it comes to warships, the importance of propulsion is not just how cheap it is or it’s pure power. Important point is, how dependable and sustainable the power delivery is. More importantly how much emphasis the propulsion manufacturer is giving on modern warship requirements like quietness of propulsion to help ship’s survivability. For the end user it is also most important how much the manufacturer is behind it’s product.
Do you think if China had access to GE gas turbines they would still be interested in Zorya Mashproekt products?
Both China and India have an advantage though; they both have licenses to produce these turbines in house. They could easily overcome some of the shortcomings by adding their own design and technical inputs.
Zorya had the opportunity with Turkey too. But it seems that they weren’t professional enough to further the joint venture we were looking to achieve with them. Had that become a reality the definition of superiority would change too!

You're placing emphasis on two methods of which both companies are marketing their gas turbines; whether one has a cover and the other does not - when that cover has more to do with safety & operation. Furthermore, if you were to do some research there are images of how Ukrainian gas turbines are integrated into naval vessels;

This is DT-59 gas turbines power plant for Indian Delhi Class Destroyer in operation since 1987.

GE has settled in Turkey, they have R&D facilities and have own 49% of Turkish Engine Industries. Ofcourse they'll come up on top.

 

[AVCI]

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyacı yerli olarak karşılanacak​

Cumhurbaşkanlığına bağlı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı İsmail Demir, lansmanı yapılan ARAT projesi için Kale Ar-Ge ile bir protokol imzaladı. Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı (SSB) öncülüğünde Türk Silahlı Kuvvetlerinin gücüne güç katması hedeflenen seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyaçlarının yerli olarak karşılanması amacıyla SSB adına İsmail Demir ve Kale Ar-Ge adına Yönetim Kurulu Başkan Yardımcısı Osman Okyay protokole imza attı. SSB Başkanı Demir, Türkiye'nin küresel bir güç olma vizyonunda kararlılıkla yürümek zorunda olduğunu belirterek, "Projelerimizi yaparken de bazıları ilk, bazıları ilkin bir ötesi geliştirmeler oldu. Bunlar da çok zahmet çektiğimiz konular oldu. Belirli ürünler dışarıdan belki hala tedarik edilebilir. Bu yolumuza devam edebiliriz ama uzun vadede Türkiye'nin kendi göbeğini kesme yolunda ilerlemeliyiz. Bu konforu çok uzun yıllar önce Türkiye bunu yaşadı ve bu mentalitenin rahatını gördü ama artık küresel güç olmak istiyorsak, Türkiye'ye empoze edilmek istenen yaptırım uygulama ve kısıtlamalara karşı direnmek istiyorsak bu yolculuğa çıkmak zorundayız" dedi.

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyacı yerli olarak karşılanacak

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyaçlarının yerli ürünlerle karşılanması amacıyla Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı ile Kale Ar-Ge arasında iş birliği protokolü imzalandı

www.savunmasanayiidergilik.com

Translation:

Engine needs of cruise missiles will be met locally

İsmail Demir, President of Defense Industries affiliated to the Presidency, signed a protocol with Kale R&D for the ARAT project that was launched. Under the leadership of the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB), İsmail Demir on behalf of the SSB and Osman Okyay, Deputy Chairman of the Board of Directors of Kale R&D, signed the protocol in order to meet the engine needs of cruise missiles, which are aimed to strengthen the power of the Turkish Armed Forces. SSB President Demir stated that Turkey had to walk resolutely in its vision of becoming a global power, and said, "While we were carrying out our projects, some of them were first and some were beyond the first. These were also issues that we had faced. Certain products may still be outsourced. We can go on, but in the long run, we must move forward on the path of being self-sufficient. Turkey experienced this comfort many years ago and saw the comfort of this mentality, but if we want to become a global power now, if we want to resist the sanctions and restrictions that are imposed on Turkey, we will embark on this journey. We have to be on the road" ,he stated.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyacı yerli olarak karşılanacak​

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyacı yerli olarak karşılanacak

Seyir füzelerinin motor ihtiyaçlarının yerli ürünlerle karşılanması amacıyla Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı ile Kale Ar-Ge arasında iş birliği protokolü imzalandı

www.savunmasanayiidergilik.com

İsmail Demir Head of Defense Industries affiliated to the Presidency, signed a protocol with Kale R&D for the ARAT project, which was launched.

ARAT engine will also meet an important need of cruise missiles

With the ARAT project, which means 'death fish', it is aimed to meet the engine needs of platforms with similar thrust levels, especially cruise missiles, with domestic and national resources. The ARAT engine, which has a design and qualification that can operate at high altitudes and harsh environmental conditions, also fulfills an important need of cruise missiles.

 

[Combat-Master]

İsmail Demir Head of Defense Industries affiliated to the Presidency, signed a protocol with Kale R&D for the ARAT project, which was launched.

ARAT engine will also meet an important need of cruise missiles

With the ARAT project, which means 'death fish', it is aimed to meet the engine needs of platforms with similar thrust levels, especially cruise missiles, with domestic and national resources. The ARAT engine, which has a design and qualification that can operate at high altitudes and harsh environmental conditions, also fulfills an important need of cruise missiles.

Iste Buuuu!

From being so distraught in developing KTJ-3200 because of the setbacks in development, they wanted to focus on APUs and leave the jet engines behind them. Now Kale R&D is being supported with a secondary project! GEZGIN LACM you're going to be a beast

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Iste Buuuu!

From being so distraught in developing KTJ-3200 because of the setbacks in development, they wanted to focus on APUs and leave the jet engines behind them. Now Kale R&D is being supported with a secondary project! GEZGIN LACM you're going to be a beast

probably this will be a very special engine like its name. We don't know yet what will be its features but it's probably aimed to be one of the longest burning engines in its class.

TEI and Kale R&D duo are developing 3 different turbine engines for 3 different missile systems.

• OMGSF anti-ship missiles
• SOM B/C/J, AtmacaKara, Atmaca missile systems
• Gezgin family ultra long range missiles

Idealab is developing turbojet engine for the Kuzgun-TJ.

When the development of these missiles is completed, Turkey will have no gap of subsonic class cruise missiles.

 

[Combat-Master]

probably this will be a very special engine like its name. We don't know yet what will be its features but it's probably aimed to be one of the longest burning engines in its class.

TEI and Kale R&D duo are developing 3 different turbine engines for 3 different missile systems.

• OMGSF anti-ship missiles
• SOM B/C/J, AtmacaKara, Atmaca missile systems
• Gezgin family ultra long range missiles

Idealab is developing turbojet engine for the Kuzgun-TJ.

When the development of these missiles is completed, Turkey will have no gap of subsonic class cruise missiles.

I'm glad SSB has put in a support mechanism for these critical programs. I expect TEI, Tubitak and KALE to work in co-operation with each other and develop engines quicker.

Features are as follows;
-Enhanced Turbojet Engine Technology
-High Thrust - Low Fuel Consumption
-Increased performance at high altitude
-Increased Engine Lifespan

 

[Trakya_forever]

ARAT is coming baby I think it is not only for GEZGİN. A new ALCM (maybe SOM-ER or something with a new name)

 

[Combat-Master]

ARAT is coming baby I think it is not only for GEZGİN. A new ALCM (maybe SOM-ER or something with a new name)

It'll be the same dimensions as KTJ-3200, so they can slap it onto SOM for sure

TR40>TR50
KTJ3200>ARAT (KTJ3500(?)

 

[Zafer]

ARAT is a turbojet, Gezgin was supposed to be powered by a turbofan. So it is likely that ARAT is like a matured version of KTJ-3200. This simply means longer range. Still not the turbofan for Gezgin. Gezgin's engine will likely come from Ukraine until a Turkish maker makes a new one.

On the other hand Gezgin is likely to have several models with various ranges. So ARAT maybe the engine for a shorter range Gezgin or an extended range SOM which will be followed by a longer range Gezgin powered by a turbofan. Ranges for the Gezgin missile are cited as 800 km and 1400, AFAIK.

 

[Combat-Master]

ARAT is a turbojet, Gezgin was supposed to be powered by a turbofan. So it is likely that ARAT is like a matured version of KTJ-3200. This simply means longer range. Still not the turbofan for Gezgin. Gezgin's engine will likely come from Ukraine until a Turkish maker makes a new one.

On the other hand Gezgin is likely to have several models with various ranges. So ARAT maybe the engine for a shorter range Gezgin or an extended range SOM which will be followed by a longer range Gezgin powered by a turbofan. Ranges for the Gezgin missile are cited as 800 km and 1400, AFAIK.

SCALP Naval is powered by a Turbojet engine that was developed from TR40, range of SCALP naval is said to be over 1000km. It is not a necessity for a turbofan engine if a turbojet engine has similar performance margins - and at this small scale, there aren't many gains.

 

[Zafer]

SCALP Naval is powered by a Turbojet engine that was developed from TR40, range of SCALP naval is said to be over 1000km. It is not a necessity for a turbofan engine if a turbojet engine has similar performance margins - and at this small scale, there aren't many gains.

1000 km is a respectable range however %40 percent longer range maybe attainable by using a turbofan instead of a turbojet (depending on the bypass ratio of the engine). You can only make a turbofan engine once you have mastered the turbojet.

 

[Hexciter]

With the power in the KTJ-3200, ARAT will come:
• With the knowledge in KaleArge KTJ-3200, a turbojet engine with high efficiency, low fuel consumption and high thrust will be developed.
• It will meet the needs of cruise missiles and platforms that need similar thrust levels.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456685281801908227

 

[Hexciter]

SCALP Naval is powered by a Turbojet engine that was developed from TR40, range of SCALP naval is said to be over 1000km. It is not a necessity for a turbofan engine if a turbojet engine has similar performance margins - and at this small scale, there aren't many gains.

I read somewhere that SCALP’s range is 1000 km if fired from a submarine which is 1400 km if fired from a ship.