TR Propulsion Systems

[TR_123456]

What is the source of this information? As far as I know, the TS-1400 engine will be 20-30 kg heavier than the competitor engine, not 30-40 kg.

So why is it heavier then?
Why should it be heavier?

 

[Merzifonlu]

So why is it heavier then?
Why should it be heavier?

The TEI TS-1400 engine is 20-30 kg heavier than the LHTEC CTS800 engine that was used as a basis when the project started. Because Western countries did not sell us the top notch super alloys that they used. We used super alloys that were lower quality but sold as "off the shelf" products. And to compensate for this situation, they designed the engine 160 HP more powerful than originally requested.

This is how Prof. Akşit explained it in the video I gave the link to.

 

[Saithan]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

 

[begturan]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

Once the engine enters mass production and the embargoes on us are lifted, this extra weight will probably disappear, and I do not think that a 30 kg load will be a problem for a cargo helicopter, and the engine produces more power than its other equivalents, so ?

Of course, experts on the subject can provide clearer information on this subject.

 

[TR_123456]

The TEI TS-1400 engine is 20-30 kg heavier than the LHTEC CTS800 engine that was used as a basis when the project started. Because Western countries did not sell us the top notch super alloys that they used. We used super alloys that were lower quality but sold as "off the shelf" products. And to compensate for this situation, they designed the engine 160 HP more powerful than originally requested.

This is how Prof. Akşit explained it in the video I gave the link to.

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?
@Yasar_TR abi?

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

In aviation, every pound matters.

 

[Saithan]

I hope someone can actually answer my question to the limitations. And not throw a jargon we all have heard before.

 

[Zafer]

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?

As TEI have been working on several project that will use the super-alloy technology one can consider that they are working on these alloys day and night. They will probably not be advertising what the latest achievement is however helicopter engines actually may not be using the latest alloys either. So the latest of TEI probably already matches the already not the cutting edge helicopter alloys.

The latest we heard about the alloy works is TEI can do a better job with additive manufacturing than that can be done with traditional casting or crystal growth. I believe they should be in a phase where they are optimizing their powder production for their additive efforts as of now. Until we hear again from the officials this is where we are likely to be standing.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?
@Yasar_TR abi?

simple answer to your question is : Yes! Mostly.

detailed answer is:

At the time when we were producing the TS1400 engine, there were parts that needed to be outsourced. Also there were materials that needed to be outsourced. The top notch, first tier quality materials and parts that were being supplied, were by countries that we could not depend on. So we chose lower tier quality materials which caused the 20-30kg weight deficiency (not 30-40kg as per @Merzifonlu clarified) to compensate for the achievement of end use performance.

Prof Aksit does not give the details of the parts where the lower class materials were used. But a lot of water has flown under the bridge since those days.

Nickel Super Alloys are used in the manufacturing of hot parts of a jet turbine engine due to their high temperature performance. For example, the combustion chamber itself is such a part. We also know how proud Prof Aksit was when he produced a uniblock combustion chamber with additive technologies whereby previously, the same part needed 13 different parts to be cast. He mentioned that the additive technologies were able to give almost the same performance levels of a cast part.

High pressure turbine blades are made from Nickel Super alloys. TEI uses locally produced single crystal turbine blades. The materials used in the manufacturing of these parts, are essentially not any different than any top grade turbine blade. We can manufacture 3rd generation single crystal super alloy blades. So really there is no limitation as such about the production of high quality super alloys.
There are also drive shafts that run along the length of the engine that go near hot parts. These are made from special steel alloys, titanium-Aluminium and Nickel super alloys. They have to have very high heat endurance and low metal fatigue properties.

When producing an engine, there are certain parts like the engine casing where normal materials like aluminium are used.
To prepare a cast for limited number of production run is uneconomical and takes time even in serial production. It is easier and cheaper to outsource it. Probably, what Prof Aksit was pointing out as being heavier, was something like this.

Account Suspended

https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/kantha/sites/default/files/attached-files/73549-116619_-_takehiro_okura_-_dec_17_2015_1027_am_-_asen_5063_2015_final_report_okura.pdf

 

[Zafer]

A look at TEI Piston Diesel engine performance. Power to weight ratio matters but fuel consumption per unit of power matters for endurance in the air and TBO hours matters for ease of maintenance.

 

[Strong AI]

We have become the first company in Turkey and one of the few in the world in the defense and aviation sector to receive the ISO 22301 Business Continuity Certificate!

The ISO 22301 Business Continuity Management System Certificate, which we obtained to take our commitment to business continuity across all our operations one step further and which covers all processes, was certified by BSI (British Standards Institution), one of the world’s leading audit and certification organizations, and was presented to our General Manager in a formal ceremony.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1925916102820802692

 

[Zafer]

Hard to tell if some of the TR Motor parts' images are photographed or computer generated. Seems like some of the accessory parts are already manufactured.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Image does not belong to me
@Tr_Tech

 

[mTT]

TEI (@TEI_TUSAS) General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Akşit:

It has been a while since we started the TS1400 GÖKBEY engine. We are completing the certification processes. This engine will be an internationally civilian certified engine. This means the following: It goes through the same processes as a passenger plane engine goes through.

When the certification process of the GÖKBEY engine is completed, we will have demonstrated that we can now make a passenger aircraft engine and certify it.

Civil certification is a very difficult process. Because it involves human life and has very strict rules. The engine has to pass some very difficult stages by proving it, and it has to do so in the presence of an international arbitrator.

'I did it, just sign here...' There is no such thing. You perform those tests one by one in the presence of the arbitrator, you show that the engine has successfully passed those difficult tests, and at the end they give a certificate saying 'This engine can carry civilian passengers'.

The process is almost over, we are almost there. We have exceeded 1740 horsepower in the engine. The maximum continuous power required by the helicopter is 1298 horsepower... In other words, we are in a position to fly the helicopter very comfortably.

We have also successfully completed the life tests stipulated by international standards, and our engine is still running. God forbid.

Once the civil certification process is completed, this engine will be sold together with GÖKBEY. Otherwise, our engine is already ready.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1932002321858236659

 

[Yasar_TR]

Image does not belong to me

Bro, I know the image is not yours. But I would like to add and comment on few of those engines and planes:

1. Akinci TP1400 engine is non existent. Yes TS1400 can be developed in to a turboprop engine. However they are not common place. Almost all good turboprops are axial flow. This is because Axial Flow turbines are more efficient and compact for turboprop engines, especially for larger engines where high thrust is needed.

2. TEI-TS3000 engine is also non existing. There may be a design of it. But to develop one now will take too long. We need engines now to fly those heavy helicopters. It has to be remembered that the TS3000 will have not much common with TS1400 as it will be an axial flow engine with multi compressor stages. When TEI has to manufacture TF35000 and TF10000 as a matter of national urgency and national pride, any other developments will have to wait.

3. Baykar’s 20000lbf class turbofan too is a long winded project. For a start, Baykar doesn’t have the know how and the set up to produce such a high powered and intricate turbofan engine. If they are counting on their Ukranian partners, that could also be a non starter as Motor Sich is heavily damaged in the war and doubtful they can produce anything new. Also in their past they have never produced anything even close to that thrust level. 6000lbf dry and 10000lbf wet is the maximum they have achieved in fighter jet turbofans using Soviet Era tech.
That means they may be counting on their new acquisition of Piaggio. But Piaggio is like TEI. They produce engine parts for RR, Honeywell and Pratt&Whitney. It will take a long time to develop a working engine, unless they buy one directly from these companies or licence produce one at Piaggio. Then, will they be allowed to use them on their Turkish production line?
That leaves TEI doing the work for Baykar. But what has precedence? TF35K or TF20K?
Listen to the man who knows what he is talking about! Prof Dr Aksit says 10-14 years needed to develop a turbofan.
I am sure someone like Seljuk Bayraktar is not bullshitting when he says they are going to produce a 20000lbf class turbofan. But there is a time limit about how quickly you may do that. So these pictures are a little too early to be of significance.

4. TF6000 and TF10000 may look like essentially the same. But as mentioned by Dr Aksit, the TF10000 need to be produced to a higher specification than it’s non AB brother. As the AB kicks in the sudden jolt on parts of the engine can be damaging and catastrophic if parts can not withstand it. So TF10000 is a very high spec version of the TF6000.
Also, although one could think that Anka3 is a flying wing and flying wings don’t go supersonic and TF6000 should suffice; But Anka 3 being a deep strike weapon and designed to carry a number of heavy bombs, it needs to have a lot of thrust at take off. Hence the after burner complement. (A bit like Concorde; afterburner assisted take-off and non AB flight)

 

[Merzifonlu]

I have a question. Approximately how long would it take to derive a turboprop engine from the TS-1400? I assume there are no problems with financial resources and trained manpower.

 

[mTT]

I have a question. Approximately how long would it take to derive a turboprop engine from the TS-1400? I assume there are no problems with financial resources and trained manpower.

4-5 years

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have a question. Approximately how long would it take to derive a turboprop engine from the TS-1400? I assume there are no problems with financial resources and trained manpower.

Radial flow turboprops are only good if you are using them for low rate loading. When you need high load handling and require high thrust , then axial flow turboprop is the way.

If we look at a PT6 engine lay out, it is very different to our TS1400.

There is a 4th compressor that is radial flow. This is to regulate the incoming compressed air in to the combustion chamber. Most turboshaft engines have this too (like the T700)

Graphically:

Yet, it is possible to produce a turboprop from TS1400 for a low power turboprop.

But you can’t just take TS1400 and attach a propeller to it.
It needs extensive work. And at the end of it it may not be worth the hassle.
It is anybody’s guess how long it would take to produce a turboprop from TS1400.

However, it is certain that it would take shorter to develop our T700 with 3000HP output from the GE’s T700, as we did with CTS800 to TS1400; and call it TS3000
Similarly it can be downsized to a TP1500.

 

[Zafer]

Every engine you make halves the time to the next new engine.

TEI made the TS1400 of which certification is almost complete. TEI made the TF6000 engine into an employable state for prototype planes. TF10000 is not far away. TF35000 is less than 2 years to ignition. There is lots of know how learned along the way. So first ignition of a new turboprop should not be any more than 3 years away. Considering especially that you will employ it on unmanned and military aircraft.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Thank you for answers.