Russian Geopolitics and Economy Discussions

Glass🚬

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Why?

Yes, I think Swedes are ungrateful people who forget the past quickly. Especially for the last 20 years, they've been barking louder and louder at us with sheer liberal-left bigotry.

Therefore, I think it is no longer our concern to defend Scandinavia and the Baltic states against Russia. We defend those who do business with us, not those who bark at us!
^this, also the swedes are pkk supporters, they need to be punished.

However, preventing them from joining NATO would create unnecessary tensions. There's no need for that, it's best to step aside and calmly watch what's going on.

Because them joining NATO would mean creating more unnecessary tensions for us, I agree as well with watching calmly what unfolds there, we need to be careful to not being sucked in that upcoming conflict.
 

RogerRanger

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What the Russian ruling class wants is for NATO to leave the former Soviet Union. So if the NATO does that, by that I mean stops doing drills and sending for troops and equipment into those places. Its more of a demilitary zone that Russia wants, then to expend into those places.
 

blackjack

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Cant tell if this forum hates Russia or wants Russia to invade everyone because they love Russia and they want that country to rule over everyone because they know Putin gets shit done. If someone wants a more fun shit-flinging thread they would say what if russia invades turkey thread next. Either way it must suck being close to Russia anyways for invasions.
 

RogerRanger

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Cant tell if this forum hates Russia or wants Russia to invade everyone because they love Russia and they want that country to rule over everyone because they know Putin gets shit done. If someone wants a more fun shit-flinging thread they would say what if russia invades turkey thread next. Either way it must suck being close to Russia anyways for invasions.
Here I am trying to big up the war between Britain and France in the English channel and nobody here cares. Hahaha. Its just Russia, Russia, Russia, oh you have China and Turkey on the outside. Haha.
 

Glass🚬

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Here I am trying to big up the war between Britain and France in the English channel and nobody here cares. Hahaha. Its just Russia, Russia, Russia, oh you have China and Turkey on the outside. Haha.

I guess Turkey would be team UK on a possible stand off between UK and france lel

--

 

xizhimen

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China is very keen to form an alliance with Russia, but it's up to Russia to make up their mind on it, China knows she is the primary target of the west in the long run and we need Russia to be on our side.
China controls the global supply chain, if a war broke out, we can at least keep Russia well supplied.

Lyle-March-26_FINAL.jpg
 
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McCool

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The west would only have to wait long enough until the Chinese and Russians start stabbing each other. In a hypothetical Sino-Russian alliance there could be only one leader. We all know how neither China or Russia treat its "partners" as equal. Both wont want to be sitting in 2nd place. This is very different from NATO-US or US-Japan alliance where all sides agree that the US is the undisputed de-facto leader of the bloc.
 

xizhimen

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The west would only have to wait long enough until the Chinese and Russians start stabbing each other. In a hypothetical Sino-Russian alliance there could be only one leader. We all know how neither China or Russia treat its "partners" as equal. Both wont want to be sitting in 2nd place. This is very different from NATO-US or US-Japan alliance where all sides agree that the US is the undisputed de-facto leader of the bloc.
The problem is, with this neck breaking speed of China's development and growth, does the west still have time to wait for another decade or two? By then China could be comfortably and easily handle the west all by herself. After China becomes No.1, the western alliance will quickly break up, no one would bet their future on weaklings.
 

McCool

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The problem is, with this neck breaking speed of China's development and growth, does the west still have time to wait for another decade or two? By then China could be comfortably and easily handle the west all by herself.
Oh yes they do, people tend to forget that every US adversary have this "neck breaking speed" of development. From the USSR during the space race, Japan in the 70s etc etc, all lost in the end. China wont be any different. China's growth happens in a period of western cooperation, might want to remember that as well. Now every one is slowly aligning their interests with that of the US.

Just because you can type the word "development' and "breakneck" doesn't hide the fact of the growing problem China will have to face to continue growing. In fact the west would only need to watch how China's demography kills its own growth.
 

xizhimen

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Oh yes they do, people tend to forget that every US adversary have this "neck breaking speed" of development. From the USSR during the space race, Japan in the 70s etc etc, all lost in the end. China wont be any different. C
USSR and Japan had never managed to become the world biggest trading nation, industrial nation and manufacturing nation, never got the domestic retail market as big as China's, never produced and consumed over half of the world raw materials, never been surpassed US in global wealth share, overtook US in PPP, Back in the 1970's and 1980's, US still held the world No. 1 title in most economic and industrial metrics, now it holds none. What esle can US do besides printing US dollars now. Only fools would equate China with USSR and Japan.
 
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HaZZan

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Not blaming Russia for this tbh, having Nato military bases in Ukraine Finland and Sweden would be like Russia having military bases in Mexico, think about the Russian military optimizing the cartels trades in Mexico and taking it to the next lvl, imaging a pro-Russian government in Mexico, or even Russian warships in the Gulf of Mexico how would the US react to that?
 

Huelague

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Why?

Yes, I think Swedes are ungrateful people who forget the past quickly. Especially for the last 20 years, they've been barking louder and louder at us with sheer liberal-left bigotry.

Therefore, I think it is no longer our concern to defend Scandinavia and the Baltic states against Russia. We defend those who do business with us, not those who bark at us!

However, preventing them from joining NATO would create unnecessary tensions. There's no need for that. It's best to step aside and calmly watch what's going on.
We should demand much in return.
 

Glass🚬

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We should demand much in return.

Dont demand anything, block their application and let them get annexed.

--

The Outlier: What if Putin’s Real Target isn’t Ukraine?​

FEBRUARY 4TH, 2022 BY TIM WILLASEY-WILSEY

Tim Willasey-Wilsey served for over 27 years in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office. He is now Visiting Professor of War Studies at King's College, London. His first overseas posting was to Angola during the Cold War followed by Central America during the instability of the late 1980s. He was also involved in the transition to majority rule in South Africa and in the Israel/Palestine issue. His late career was spent in Asia including a posting to Pakistan in the mid 1990s.
View all articles by Tim Willasey-Wilsey

EXPERT PERSPECTIVE — We have a long history of misreading Russian intentions. The classic example was the judgement by the British Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) that Russia would not invade Czechoslovakia in 1968; based on a westernised view that it would not be in Moscow’s interests. Similar misjudgements were made in the prelude to Putin’s annexation of the Crimea in 2014.
Vladimir Putin calculated this winter as the ideal time to confront the West over those parts of the former Soviet Union which he believes should still be in Moscow’s sphere of influence. Winter inevitably puts Europe’s energy market under stress. Meanwhile NATO has just made a humiliating and chaotic exit from Afghanistan led by a United States president who is struggling in the polls.
Having identified the best moment Putin followed up by mobilising an army of some 130,000 troops in midwinter, distributed in pockets along Ukraine’s borders with Russia and Belarus. Putin never places great belief in diplomacy but he is willing to go through the motions because he does set store by assembling retrospective justification for any future action. In the unlikely event of a major Western concession, he would be willing to stand down the army but the strong probability is that he will use it to facilitate a tangible political and military result.
The assumption of everyone in the West is that Ukraine is the target for either an invasion or an incursion. However, none of the options looks particularly good. Yes, Russian troops could probably dash the 240 miles from Belarus to Kiev and seize the capital. But they would be unable to subjugate the whole of Ukraine, especially west of Kiev, and the invasion could lead to a long and costly insurgency. Alternatively, Putin could try and capture Ukraine’s coast and the port of Odessa but it would leave a long strip of land to defend against future Ukrainian counter-attacks.
The other problem with attacking Ukraine is that it lets NATO and the West off too lightly. President Biden made it very clear at an early stage of this crisis that NATO would not fight to defend Ukraine. Instead, all the talk has been of economic and financial sanctions. This approach has made it easier for Western countries to show a reasonably united front against Putin, although differences exist over supplying weapons to Ukraine and the exact nature of the sanctions.
So, the focus on Ukraine has not worked for Putin. Although some of the responses have been divisive the overall tendency has been to unite Western leaders. It has also enabled them to undertake some showboating with Macron engaging directly with Putin in diplomatic talks and others making high-profile trips to Kiev.
But Ukraine may not be Putin’s main target. Putin’s beef is with NATO which, he believes, has made more inroads into central and eastern Europe than was ever agreed following the collapse of the Soviet Union. In fact the two draft treaties which Russia published on 17th December last year demanded that NATO withdraw its forces and weapons from any country which joined NATO since 1997. That would include Hungary, Poland, Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia. It also embraces the three Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) whose secession from the old Soviet Union particularly rankles with Putin.
There are two operations which Russia could launch against the Baltic States which would send NATO into a tailspin. Article V of the NATO treaty stipulates that “an armed attack against one [member] shall be considered an attack against them all” In other words NATO would be obliged to employ armed force. If any Russian incursion were deft, limited in scope and did not kill too many NATO soldiers or local inhabitants this would undoubtedly lead to severe divisions in the Western alliance. Any subsequent failure by NATO to deploy armed force would undermine faith in the alliance and would send a powerful message to aspirant members like Ukraine and Georgia.



The easier of the two options for Putin would be to annex Narva on Russia’s border with Estonia. It is a majority Russian-speaking town and there has, in the past, been some cultural tension with the government in Tallinn. Putin would ask his intelligence agencies to manufacture a plea for Russian intervention. The annexation could be undertaken by Russian Special Forces. Post facto the Russian line would be that Narva was an exceptional case which should never have been located in Estonia and certainly not worth an armed conflict with NATO. Several European capitals would doubtless agree. But Britain would be in a particularly difficult position as the “lead nation” of NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence (EFP) with some 1,100 troops based at Tapa 100 miles to the west.
The second option would be riskier but potentially more valuable to Moscow. An attempt to link Belarus with the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad through the so-called Suwalki Corridor would sever any land border between NATO and EU countries and the three Baltic States. The EFP in Lithuania is led by the Germans who would be reluctant to contest a Russian incursion for reasons which Chancellor Scholz has already outlined. Troops from Kaliningrad could complete the task supported from Belarus. Again, the post facto justification would be about the unfairness of Kaliningrad’s separation from the motherland. This too might be enough for some European nations to argue for negotiations rather than combat, especially if Russia’s incursion were only in the Lithuanian portion of the Corridor and not in Poland.
Many Western commentators will argue that Putin would not be so foolish as to attack a NATO member. Actually, it makes far more sense than invading Ukraine. It would divide NATO and would serve as yet another of Putin’s unresolved conflicts which become valuable bargaining chips for the future. His key calculation seems correct; that Europe (and the US) has no appetite for war with Russia.


 

GoatsMilk

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Not blaming Russia for this tbh, having Nato military bases in Ukraine Finland and Sweden would be like Russia having military bases in Mexico, think about the Russian military optimizing the cartels trades in Mexico and taking it to the next lvl, imaging a pro-Russian government in Mexico, or even Russian warships in the Gulf of Mexico how would the US react to that?

Russians where they can put bases around their enemies. Lets not feel sorry that the communists lost out. They are no victim. They placed bases in Crimea against Turkey, they placed bases in armenia against Turkey, they placed bases in Syria against Turkey. If they could they would place more.

Don't confuse russian weakness with russian innocence.

Even today the russians have certain strategic land within europe itself using it as a threat against europe like transnistria or Khalingrad.
 

Ryder

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I havent seen the Baltics engage in Anti Turkish policy.

But Scandinavia on the other I could careless if Russia invades them. Not our problem.
 

Anastasius

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Dont demand anything, block their application and let them get annexed.

--

The Outlier: What if Putin’s Real Target isn’t Ukraine?​

FEBRUARY 4TH, 2022 BY TIM WILLASEY-WILSEY

Tim Willasey-Wilsey served for over 27 years in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office. He is now Visiting Professor of War Studies at King's College, London. His first overseas posting was to Angola during the Cold War followed by Central America during the instability of the late 1980s. He was also involved in the transition to majority rule in South Africa and in the Israel/Palestine issue. His late career was spent in Asia including a posting to Pakistan in the mid 1990s.
View all articles by Tim Willasey-Wilsey

EXPERT PERSPECTIVE — We have a long history of misreading Russian intentions. The classic example was the judgement by the British Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) that Russia would not invade Czechoslovakia in 1968; based on a westernised view that it would not be in Moscow’s interests. Similar misjudgements were made in the prelude to Putin’s annexation of the Crimea in 2014.
Vladimir Putin calculated this winter as the ideal time to confront the West over those parts of the former Soviet Union which he believes should still be in Moscow’s sphere of influence. Winter inevitably puts Europe’s energy market under stress. Meanwhile NATO has just made a humiliating and chaotic exit from Afghanistan led by a United States president who is struggling in the polls.
Having identified the best moment Putin followed up by mobilising an army of some 130,000 troops in midwinter, distributed in pockets along Ukraine’s borders with Russia and Belarus. Putin never places great belief in diplomacy but he is willing to go through the motions because he does set store by assembling retrospective justification for any future action. In the unlikely event of a major Western concession, he would be willing to stand down the army but the strong probability is that he will use it to facilitate a tangible political and military result.
The assumption of everyone in the West is that Ukraine is the target for either an invasion or an incursion. However, none of the options looks particularly good. Yes, Russian troops could probably dash the 240 miles from Belarus to Kiev and seize the capital. But they would be unable to subjugate the whole of Ukraine, especially west of Kiev, and the invasion could lead to a long and costly insurgency. Alternatively, Putin could try and capture Ukraine’s coast and the port of Odessa but it would leave a long strip of land to defend against future Ukrainian counter-attacks.
The other problem with attacking Ukraine is that it lets NATO and the West off too lightly. President Biden made it very clear at an early stage of this crisis that NATO would not fight to defend Ukraine. Instead, all the talk has been of economic and financial sanctions. This approach has made it easier for Western countries to show a reasonably united front against Putin, although differences exist over supplying weapons to Ukraine and the exact nature of the sanctions.
So, the focus on Ukraine has not worked for Putin. Although some of the responses have been divisive the overall tendency has been to unite Western leaders. It has also enabled them to undertake some showboating with Macron engaging directly with Putin in diplomatic talks and others making high-profile trips to Kiev.
But Ukraine may not be Putin’s main target. Putin’s beef is with NATO which, he believes, has made more inroads into central and eastern Europe than was ever agreed following the collapse of the Soviet Union. In fact the two draft treaties which Russia published on 17th December last year demanded that NATO withdraw its forces and weapons from any country which joined NATO since 1997. That would include Hungary, Poland, Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia. It also embraces the three Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) whose secession from the old Soviet Union particularly rankles with Putin.
There are two operations which Russia could launch against the Baltic States which would send NATO into a tailspin. Article V of the NATO treaty stipulates that “an armed attack against one [member] shall be considered an attack against them all” In other words NATO would be obliged to employ armed force. If any Russian incursion were deft, limited in scope and did not kill too many NATO soldiers or local inhabitants this would undoubtedly lead to severe divisions in the Western alliance. Any subsequent failure by NATO to deploy armed force would undermine faith in the alliance and would send a powerful message to aspirant members like Ukraine and Georgia.



The easier of the two options for Putin would be to annex Narva on Russia’s border with Estonia. It is a majority Russian-speaking town and there has, in the past, been some cultural tension with the government in Tallinn. Putin would ask his intelligence agencies to manufacture a plea for Russian intervention. The annexation could be undertaken by Russian Special Forces. Post facto the Russian line would be that Narva was an exceptional case which should never have been located in Estonia and certainly not worth an armed conflict with NATO. Several European capitals would doubtless agree. But Britain would be in a particularly difficult position as the “lead nation” of NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence (EFP) with some 1,100 troops based at Tapa 100 miles to the west.
The second option would be riskier but potentially more valuable to Moscow. An attempt to link Belarus with the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad through the so-called Suwalki Corridor would sever any land border between NATO and EU countries and the three Baltic States. The EFP in Lithuania is led by the Germans who would be reluctant to contest a Russian incursion for reasons which Chancellor Scholz has already outlined. Troops from Kaliningrad could complete the task supported from Belarus. Again, the post facto justification would be about the unfairness of Kaliningrad’s separation from the motherland. This too might be enough for some European nations to argue for negotiations rather than combat, especially if Russia’s incursion were only in the Lithuanian portion of the Corridor and not in Poland.
Many Western commentators will argue that Putin would not be so foolish as to attack a NATO member. Actually, it makes far more sense than invading Ukraine. It would divide NATO and would serve as yet another of Putin’s unresolved conflicts which become valuable bargaining chips for the future. His key calculation seems correct; that Europe (and the US) has no appetite for war with Russia.


That's the stupidest possible action Turkey could take. Just think for a moment, Turkey gains nothing from this and loses much.

Also, Estonia is the least likely place for Russia to attempt any military action in. It's by far the most valuable of the 3 Baltic states (Latvia being the least valuable and Lithuania dropping in importance recently) and Western nations have a lot invested in it.
 

GoatsMilk

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Also worth pointing out to the Muslims that seem to dislike Israel for their treatment of Palestinians while at the same time having a fetish for Russia, that it was the Russians who ethnically cleansed Crimea and Ukraine of Muslims. Ukraine used to be Crimean Khanate, Crimea itself was 90% Tatar Muslim.

5dceb51b15e9f942ea2cc3f5.jpg
 

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