Defence Q&A S-400 or F-35 for Turkey ? |Debate and Discussion

[what]

Another embarassing and probably futile step by Hulusi Akar in Hürriyet. He proposed a Cyprus-Crete S300 kind of scenario to solve the S400 issue. The government fucked up so bad, they are now offering putting the 2bln € system somewhere else, in another place to get rid of the sanctions and access to F35.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359050404454137856

 

[Manomed]

We don't need F35B. we will operate our UCAVs from our runway ships instead.

Navy wanted F-35Bs UCAVs won't be good as a single F-35B don't fool yourself

 

[Zafer]

Navy wanted F-35Bs UCAVs won't be good as a single F-35B don't fool yourself

The navy that wanted the F35 is no more.
F35 is an American plane and will not work against America's wishes.
We want a plane that will fulfill every wish of ours.

 

[Barry]

look you can want the F35 as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that you'll never be able to fly them against your enemies because those same enemies are pawns of your "allies." Man look how Russia and the USA colluded in Syria to keep you in a quagmire against the regime and the Syrian PKK.

They'd have no problems if F35s were used against you, though.

 

[Lool]

Navy wanted F-35Bs UCAVs won't be good as a single F-35B don't fool yourself

Again, another misconception
Have you ever wondered why would the Navy opt for the F35B
The idea was in the desire to have aircraft carriers
However, aircraft carriers that carry actual strong warplanes are big, expensive and require advanced technologies; especially in the engine department..... it has to be nuclear powered or would be useless. Such pointers indicate that for Turkey to possess an actual aircraft carrier is at least 10 years away
However, the F35B made it possible to have an aircraft carrier using a cheap LHD ship which would reduce the cost and make the wish of the Navy to fly jets a true reality

But now you guys are developing MIUS which is a fighter jet capable of deploying air to air missiles and air to ground missiles while being half the price or less in terms of operational costs and all of this in just 2 more years. What more could you ask for?

And your idea that ppl are bitching about the F35 because they cant get it is wrong. Many US Army officials have already called the project a massive failure
The British army is planning to cut their orders of the F35 jets by about half or more so that they can concentrate on their 6th generation jet Tempest
There are rumors that the Italian army just wants to equip one LHD rather than the initially planned 2+ ships because of the jet massive operational costs
Rumors that even Japan wants to cut its order of 100 fighter jets but are scared from antagonising the US
Like looooool...... even the US Army itself stated that they will cut their F35 orders by nearly half and concentrate on their 6th generation fighter jets
Like what more proof do you need to know that it sucks; all armies of the world are shying away from it

 

[TR_123456]

Again, another misconception
Have you ever wondered why would the Navy opt for the F35B
The idea was in the desire to have aircraft carriers
However, aircraft carriers that carry actual strong warplanes are big, expensive and require advanced technologies; especially in the engine department..... it has to be nuclear powered or would be useless. Such pointers indicate that for Turkey to possess an actual aircraft carrier is at least 10 years away
However, the F35B made it possible to have an aircraft carrier using a cheap LHD ship which would reduce the cost and make the wish of the Navy to fly jets a true reality

But now you guys are developing MIUS which is a fighter jet capable of deploying air to air missiles and air to ground missiles while being half the price or less in terms of operational costs and all of this in just 2 more years. What more could you ask for?

And your idea that ppl are bitching about the F35 because they cant get it is wrong. Many US Army officials have already called the project a massive failure
The British army is planning to cut their orders of the F35 jets by about half or more so that they can concentrate on their 6th generation jet Tempest
There are rumors that the Italian army just wants to equip one LHD rather than the initially planned 2+ ships because of the jet massive operational costs
Rumors that even Japan wants to cut its order of 100 fighter jets but are scared from antagonising the US
Like looooool...... even the US Army itself stated that they will cut their F35 orders by nearly half and concentrate on their 6th generation fighter jets
Like what more proof do you need to know that it sucks; all armies of the world are shying away from it

Hmm,you stop calling the F-35 a faiilure really.
We need 16 of those,urgently for the Anadolu and Trakya,8 each.
Forget MIUS and TB3 on both.
The UK and Italy will use them on their AC's,you know why?

 

[LegionnairE]

After discussing this issue in detail for months I am sad to see that nobody learned anything.

First of all F35 is a very capable platform that combines stealth, electronic warfare, strike and ai-to-air duties while maintaining the same range as F22 so @Lool you're wrong. It's not a failure. And we need it, the situation in eastern mediterranean demands it.

F35 is an American plane and will not work against America's wishes.

They said the same thing about F16 and we used F16 in every operation without trouble so you're wrong too

@T-123456

We need F35A not B as TCG Anadolu is a LHD not an aircraft carrier.

TCG Anadolu doesn't even need MIUS, just helicopters and drones will be enough to support a landing operation.

"kedi ulaşamadığı ete mındar dermiş" You made my argument right lol

Exactly.

"Sour grapes"

 

[Manomed]

Again, another misconception
Have you ever wondered why would the Navy opt for the F35B
The idea was in the desire to have aircraft carriers
However, aircraft carriers that carry actual strong warplanes are big, expensive and require advanced technologies; especially in the engine department..... it has to be nuclear powered or would be useless. Such pointers indicate that for Turkey to possess an actual aircraft carrier is at least 10 years away
However, the F35B made it possible to have an aircraft carrier using a cheap LHD ship which would reduce the cost and make the wish of the Navy to fly jets a true reality

But now you guys are developing MIUS which is a fighter jet capable of deploying air to air missiles and air to ground missiles while being half the price or less in terms of operational costs and all of this in just 2 more years. What more could you ask for?

And your idea that ppl are bitching about the F35 because they cant get it is wrong. Many US Army officials have already called the project a massive failure
The British army is planning to cut their orders of the F35 jets by about half or more so that they can concentrate on their 6th generation jet Tempest
There are rumors that the Italian army just wants to equip one LHD rather than the initially planned 2+ ships because of the jet massive operational costs
Rumors that even Japan wants to cut its order of 100 fighter jets but are scared from antagonising the US
Like looooool...... even the US Army itself stated that they will cut their F35 orders by nearly half and concentrate on their 6th generation fighter jets
Like what more proof do you need to know that it sucks; all armies of the world are shying away from it

MİUS can't even get to mach 1 It has no chance against fighter jets stop fooling yourself drones can't replace fighter jets omg Why turks are acting always like this If you can't have something that does not make that product bad.

 

[Manomed]

I think MIUS will be supersonic, from what I understand, motorSICH will be providing an afterburning engine.

But it still doesn't make it F35.

Right now Turkish Air Force needs more planes immediately due to the situation in eastern mediterranean and MIUS only exists in 3d renders, development will take years. Even then MIUS is no F35.

They won't understand this We should have bought the EF-2000 now our hands are tied

 

[Lonewolf]

They won't understand this We should have bought the EF-2000 now our hands are tied

Well you have other options .

Collaboration with any non nato country for program which is in a later phase of development for joint production for 4.5 gen capability fighter .

American are not blocking engine for you now , you can easily get force upgradation .

 

[TheInsider]

We shouldn't buy anything at all until MMU. We don't need anything more against Greece and challenging Russia or Israel seems unrealistic. We should make sure that HAF can't be utilized in a war and we have enough assets for this. What we should do is to restructure F-16 squadrons into A-A roles and support them with long-range air-defense systems(Siper+S400). We don't need a lot of F-16s squadrons for ground attack roles UAVs and F4s can take over that job. IMO 3 squadrons for SEAD/DEAD and ground attack roles should be enough. This leaves us with 9 squadrons for A/A missions and that is a lot. Greece has to use its fleet for SEAD/DEAD, ground attack, anti-ship attack, and A-A missions. And HAF has to do this while protecting its bases from every stand-off asset we have that will be launched from inside our air defense umbrella.

 

[LegionnairE]

We shouldn't buy anything at all until MMU. We don't need anything more against Greece and challenging Russia or Israel seems unrealistic. We should make sure that HAF can't be utilized in a war and we have enough assets for this. What we should do is to restructure F-16 squadrons into A-A roles and support them with long-range air-defense systems(Siper+S400). We don't need a lot of F-16s squadrons for ground attack roles UAVs and F4s can take over that job. IMO 3 squadrons for SEAD/DEAD and ground attack roles should be enough. This leaves us with 9 squadrons for A/A missions and that is a lot. Greece has to use its fleet for SEAD/DEAD, ground attack, anti-ship attack, and A-A missions. And HAF has to do this while protecting its bases from every stand-off asset we have that will be launched from inside our air defense umbrella.

Unfortunately there's a joint force of Greece, France and Israel conducting drills and posturing against Turkey in eastern mediterranean.
Most people don't realize the severity of this situation due to it not being in the news. But it's real. We urgently need new fighter jets.

I want Gripen NG, it's the best option.

 

[Huelague]

We shouldn't buy anything at all until MMU. We don't need anything more against Greece and challenging Russia or Israel seems unrealistic. We should make sure that HAF can't be utilized in a war and we have enough assets for this. What we should do is to restructure F-16 squadrons into A-A roles and support them with long-range air-defense systems(Siper+S400). We don't need a lot of F-16s squadrons for ground attack roles UAVs and F4s can take over that job. IMO 3 squadrons for SEAD/DEAD and ground attack roles should be enough. This leaves us with 9 squadrons for A/A missions and that is a lot. Greece has to use its fleet for SEAD/DEAD, ground attack, anti-ship attack, and A-A missions. And HAF has to do this while protecting its bases from every stand-off asset we have that will be launched from inside our air defense umbrella.

"They" are arming Egypt to the teeth. Against whom you think? What about Iran? Armenia? Many questionmarks.

 

[Huelague]

Unfortunately there's a joint force of Greece, France and Israel conducting drills and posturing against Turkey in eastern mediterranean.
Most people don't realize the severity of this situation due to it not being in the news. But it's real. We urgently need new fighter jets.

I want Gripen NG, it's the best option.

France and Israel will never fight us on an open battlefield.

 

[TheInsider]

France and Israel will never fight us on an open battlefield.

True. And Egypt is not a problem unless we are invading Egypt.

 

[Huelague]

True. And Egypt is not a problem unless we are invading Egypt.

"They" force al Sisi to intervene in Libya and the dispute over Nil is not closed.

 

[TheInsider]

"They" force al Sisi to intervene in Libya and the dispute over Nil is not closed.

It is Libya's problem. Libyans will fight that war, not us. We will aid them. Do you think the Egyptian air force will bomb Trablus? And how will that go I wonder?

You see there is a big problem with combined forces. No one wants to fight.

 

[PatrioticTÜRK]

NONE OF THEM F35 OR S-400 A FEW YEARS TIME WE LL HAVE LONG RANGE ADS SIPER,HISAR
WE SEEN HOW USELESS IS RUSSIAN DEFENCE SYSTEM S-300 ,PANTSIR
SO NO NEED NONE OF THEM
F-35 IS RIP OFF

 

[TheInsider]

F_35 is a good product but it is expensive to operate requires a lot of effort to keep them operational and the most important thing is it will come with a lot of strings attached to it. We can't use it freely as much as we want we can't deploy it on Cyprus or Libya. Modernizing them will be a pain so is national weapon integration when the time comes.

 

[the]

No point in discussing "what if......"

You have to look at it from today's standpoint.

1) Turkey keeps the s-400 unactivated, potentially purchases a second set of systems --> leads to more sanctions. Either way, they sit there not being used - $2.5 billion gone to waste.

2) Turkey sells its s-400 batteries to an ally (Azerbaijan? Libya?). The issue here is that, I'd assume you would need permission from Russia - who would likely reject any deal. Addittionally, any country that does purchase the batteries will want a significant discount or potentially future political favours. The benefits of this outcome will likely be immediate removal of US sanctions - and therefore an positive sign for the economy (likely to see the Lira gain value) if it means clearing tension with Turkey's natural allies.

- Turkey was going to purchase a total of 120 F35A/Bs for $12.4 billion. Whilst this is a substantial cost, one has to consider that the Turkish defence industry would have benefitted from sales of the fighter, given that Turkey had been given permission to manufacture components of its own F-35 engines. Furthermore, there would have been the opportunity to export the Som-J ammunition to other users of the F-35. Finally, Turkey would have held the European F-35 maintenance facility- providing further economic stimulus.

Anyway, Its hard to imagine the US suddenly re-accepting Turkey back into the F-35 programme, let alone with the perks of being a tier 3 partner.

Essentially, Turkey shot itself in the foot the minute it purchased the s-400 system.

The only real positive way of getting out of this scenario would be option 2, and hope that the US allows Turkey to return back to the programme as a gesture of goodwill and to show 'co-operation' between allies at a time where, lets just say, US leadership on the international stage has been lacking.

Perhaps an alternative route would be purchasing the Eurosam SAMP-T air defence system with a set of Eurofighters to bridge the gap until MMU and Hurjet are introduced. (Though this would rely on Turkey losing the s-400s and perhaps stopping "provocative actions" in the Eastern Med i.e. cutting down on the Mavi Vatan doctrine .

 

[LegionnairE]

@the

I agree that we shot ourselves in the foot. F-35 deal was sweet. Losing that, on top of losing the plane's capabilities at a time of need and spending billions of dollars on a system we'll likely never going to use. These are terrible losses.

But, we have come this far, I say the path forward is to accelerate. We should start negotiations with Russia over Su-57 or Su-75 cite being kicked out of F35 program as reason. Either they will respond with more sanctions or they will fold and allow Turkey back into F-35 program. Either way we get a 5th generation fighter.

We must make it absolutely clear that every action will be met with an equal and opposite reaction.
There's no backing down.