India Army Small Arms

[Nilgiri]

The thing I am most impressed about are the SIG-716 battle rifles which are probably the best rifles out there for the role. Looks like they are also equipped with local (?) thermal sights and Israeli made Meprolight holographic sights which are proven and are very good.

When it comes to personal equipment I am not particularly impressed and I think there is a room for more improvement.

When we talk about the protection equipment I can comment on the design the choice of design but can't properly comment on the protection levels.

Looks like the Indian Army came a couple of steps closer for sorting out a problem with the lack of protection. When it comes to the helmet it is very good that it haves a helmet cover. Helmet cover can help a lot in terms of disguise and blending with the surroundings. The problem I have with the helmet is with its design. I think front mount and side rails would fit it nicely and add a bit more versatility and capability of using equipment like night vision goggles or micro lights easily. If we want to make it even better the helmet cover would be good fitted with velcro so additional equipment like batteries (for the NVGs), IR strobes for identification, identification patches (including IR patches) and also very importantly protective eyewear can be optionally mounted.

When we talk about the vest we should note that the particular design is not very modern but there are at least some nice touches to it. Looking at the front side we see a zipper going from top to bottom who is most probably used for getting in and out of the vest. I think this is liability in terms of protection. One of the most important areas which that kind of protection gear should secure is the Aorta artery and it is running like trough the center of the body and such a zipper could jeopardize protection if bullet hits in the middle. Good think about the vest is that they managed to make it lighter by removing a lot of weight from the side and implemented a multifunctional adjustment system which allows for the soldier to control the fit of the vest and also add the capability for mounting additional MOLLE equipment including side panels carrying ballistic plate. they also managed to implement MOLLE webbing at the back allowing the soldier to attach different kinds of equipment including a water bladder which is a good addition in the hard terrain and the heat. I also can see a fast drop system functioning with buckles but in order to work the front zipper should be opened first.

What I don't like about it is the whole concept of using a ballistic vest in that mountainous environment. Judging by the weight (3.5kg) I have doubts in its protective properties and most probably it is capable of stopping small calibers but if place for that is made (some ballistic vests come with that option) additional ballistic plates could be mounted to increase protection level but also with that the weight will increase. I think that better choice for that environment would have been plate carriers which both offer a good amount of protection, better comfort, higher mobility, a perfect level of modularity and also are lower on weight. The main difference between ballistic vests and plate carriers are that the first are made by bulletproof materials and are categorized as soft armor in their nature but they are usually more bulky, heavy and uncomfortable while the plate carriers are made to carry ballistic plates mainly at the front and back side with additional options in the most cases of mounting ballistic plates also on the sides. Additionally in order to increase protection and lessen the traumatic effect of a possible hit a plate carrier can also be fitted with soft armor. In my opinion the better option for mountain warfare is a plate carrier and for urban operations a ballistic vest. Even if the choice was a ballistic vest again I would not argue about that because the Indian Army knows its needs best I would criticize the design and would advice moving onto a design with a velcro front panel used to pinch the ends of the sides which results in successfully mounting the vest and also adjusting it but also would feature uninterrupted MOLLE webbing on the front resulting in better and more comfortable pouch mounting.

Another good addition to the safety gear is the usage of open finger type protection gloves and also an "X" shape elbow and knee pads. While these are very good additions I see a piece of protection equipment with critical importance missing. I don't see eyewear. I think ballistic eyewear usage is piece of equipment that is neglected by many soldiers even if it is present in their gear. They just don't put the eye protection out of laziness but don't realize that even micro projectile, sand, wall putty can seriously damage the eyesight or even result in blindness. With high quality eyewear the soldier's sight can be protected and even after impacts that would usually damage their eyesight they can recover and come back to the fight fast.

In conclusion I would like to say that for me the most important things for one soldier on the battlefield are his psychical strength, the ability of the body to deal with high amounts of physical stress, his knowledge base accumulated trough training and practice, his intuition and the quality of his weapon. With exception of the quality weapon all these qualities can be trained and improved in Indian military training and military academies. The personal equipment is important on the modern battlefield but I think that it is rather a luxury to have it and it is not a decisive factor in the calculation of winning or losing a battle or even a whole war. In the case of the Indian Army while there is a place for improvement in the personal and protective equipment I am impressed by the awesome choice for their standard battle rifle and the usage of high quality electronic sights.

Thank you bro for spending this quality time for a long answer... I was expecting a quick coffee but you give us a full dinner....

....Christmas arrives in july sometimes hehe.

 

[Gessler]

Some pics of the new 716s in service

^^ Helmet-mounted Arjun-H thermal imager from Tonbo Imaging

 

[Gessler]

A 716 being tested with a new magnifier developed at Ordnance Factory Dehradun

 

[Gessler]

Two makes of thermal imagers were seen on Indian 716s in recent times, both indigenous:

RAJAK TI by Tata Advanced Systems (TAS):

ARJUN LR-X7 by Tonbo Imaging:

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426429472706756612

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426429472706756612

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430128710183645190

Are you kidding me @Gessler @Zapper ?

 

[Saithan]

India and Russia recently signed an agreement for the “off-the-shelf” procurement of 70,000 7.62×39 mm AK203 infantry rifles, ThePrint reported, citing Indian defense industry sources.

These rifles will be replaced with India’s indigenous rifle INSAS, which uses 5.56x45mm ammunition.

The weapons are expected to delivered to India as of November.

The AK-203 is a modernized version of the Kalashnikov AK-103 rifle.

The infantry rifle uses 7.62x39mm ammunition.

Weighing 3.8 kg without ammunition, the rifle has Picatinny (MIL-1913-STD) rail on the top and side for a variety of optical vision devices and tactical accessories, unlike previous Kalashnikov models.

India Buys 70,000 AK203s from Russia - C4 Defence

India and Russia recently signed an agreement for the "off-the-shelf" procurement of 70,000 7.62×39 mm AK203 infantry rifles, ThePrint reported, citing Indian defense industry sources.

www.c4defence.com

 

[Saithan]

With the production of 7.62×39 mm Russian weapons yet to start at the Korwa Ordnance Factory in Uttar Pradesh (UP), Indian Army has decided to buy off the shelf 70,000 AK-203 assault rifles from Russia.

“The deal for these assault rifles was inked recently and soon after the first tranche of payment is made, the deliveries will follow within three months,” confirmed a source. As has been reported by Financial Express Online, the Indian Army is keen to procure over 7.5 lakh AK-203 rifles.

In 2019, the two countries India and Russia have already signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) after which a joint venture — Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited (IRRPL) — was set up at Korwa, Pradesh for the manufacturing of these rifles.

More about the joint venture It is between the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) from India and from Russian side it is Rosoboronexports and Kalashnikov. And to ensure timely execution and deliveries of the rifles as and when it starts the Indian Army has also appointed a Major General as the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of IRRPL. While the OFB is holding a majority stake of 50.5 percent, the Kalashnikov Group is holding a 42 percent share and Rosoboronexport; state owned agency of Russia is holding the remaining 7.5 percent. Meanwhile, a Request for Proposal (RFP) has been floated by the Ministry of Defence to the JV for the supply of 6.71 lakh rifles.

More about the AK-47 203 It is considered to be the latest and most advanced version of the AK-47 rifle. And this is expected to replace the Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) 5.56x45 mm assault rifle, which according to officers is now having problems at high altitude.

The AK200 series rifles have retained all the benefits of the original AK classics: reliability, durability and easy maintenance. Compared to earlier Kalashnikov rifles, AK203 has better ergonomics, accuracy and density of fire. Robust mechanics and simplicity of operation.

The gun has been tested under the conditions of extreme heat and cold. High degree of versatility, adjustability and customizability of AK203 - mostly due to the presence of Picatinny rail which enables easy installment on the basic rifle of various additional equipment depending on the nature of the mission: night and day gun sights, handles, flashlights, laser designators etc.

Thus can quickly be adapted to the utilization of varied components of the security agencies as well as the armed forces. Financial Express Online has already reported that under the JV IRPL, around 100,000 Ak-203s were expected to be bought off the shelf and the remaining 6, 50,000 rifles are to be manufactured here in India under Technology Transfer.

Will the restructuring of the OFB impact the JV? No. According to reports, the recent restricting of the OFB is not going to have any impact on the JV between India and Russia for the production of the AK 203 rifles. Once the contract is finalized the complete Transfer of Technology (ToT) will take more than three years.

What are the issues behind the delay? The final deal for the joint production is stuck to the high cost which has been quoted by the Russian side which is asking for high royalty per rifle produced in India under the JV.

Indian Army to buy AK-203 off the shelf from Russia

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430128710183645190

Are you kidding me @Gessler @Zapper ?

This was expected. We bought Sig-716s in 3 different tranches numbering 72k rifles each totaling 216k rifles which although costed us $1k each, would've been much cheaper if we license manufactured all 216k of em thru a private Indian defence firm like L&T or the likes. We would've gained some valuable expertise, not to mention much faster delivery timelines (L&T delivered all K9 Vajras 1yr prior to commit date)

While the 72k OTS AKs being procured are vanilla 103s, the rest OFB is supposed to manufacture are a hybrid of 103 & 203 while still costing the same $1-1.1k. OFB did claim the royalty being paid to Ruskies is around $80 per rifle but I highly doubt that

 

[Nilgiri]

This was expected. We bought Sig-716s in 3 different tranches numbering 72k rifles each totaling 216k rifles which although costed us $1k each, would've been much cheaper if we license manufactured all 216k of em thru a private Indian defence firm like L&T or the likes. We would've gained some valuable expertise, not to mention much faster delivery timelines (L&T delivered all K9 Vajras 1yr prior to commit date)

While the 72k OTS AKs being procured are vanilla 103s, the rest OFB is supposed to manufacture are a hybrid of 103 & 203 while still costing the same $1-1.1k. OFB did claim the royalty being paid to Ruskies is around $80 per rifle but I highly doubt that

Just want to beat me head into the wall each time I hear something about the basics for our soldiers. Vast bulk of our grunts are stuck in WW2 equipment with bunch of incompetent corrupt higher-ups keeping it that way. Absolutely painful to watch it in slow-motion snail-pace repetition.

 

[Nilgiri]

Further chat about it occuring here:

Small Arms

The thing I am most impressed about are the SIG-716 battle rifles which are probably the best rifles out there for the role. Looks like they are also equipped with local (?) thermal sights and Israeli made Meprolight holographic sights which are proven and are very good. When it comes to...

defencehub.live

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431914383681024004

 

[Turko]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431914383681024004

İ like its midcaliber.

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431914383681024004

The JVPC has horrible build quality...more like a cheap chinese toy you find in a village fair.

If a terrorist manages to kill a soldier holding JVPC, I'm sure the terrorist wouldn't loot the JVPC but will offer condolences instead that the fallen had to face their adversaries with such crappy gun

I like the ASMI way better though it's a 9mm

 

[Nilgiri]

The JVPC has horrible build quality...more like a cheap chinese toy you find in a village fair.

If a terrorist manages to kill a soldier holding JVPC, I'm sure the terrorist would've loot the JVPC but will offer condolences instead that the fallen had to face their adversaries with such crappy gun

View attachment 29893

I like the ASMI way better though it's a 9mm

View attachment 29894

OFB vs anything else. All boils down to does the OFB get its grimy hands on it.

The discussion pretty much ends there heh.

 

[Gessler]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430128710183645190

Are you kidding me @Gessler @Zapper ?

Now its looking like the 70k deal was intended for the IAF (why they need so many assault rifles is anyone's guess) so I guess 'chalta hai'.

I'm secretly hoping this would be a 'biscuit' for the Russian lobby to get them off our backs and maybe steer away from the AK for the regular infantry. A man can dream.

 

[Zapper]

Now its looking like the 70k deal was intended for the IAF (why they need so many assault rifles is anyone's guess) so I guess 'chalta hai'.

I'm secretly hoping this would be a 'biscuit' for the Russian lobby to get them off our backs and maybe steer away from the AK for the regular infantry. A man can dream.

How do you know the 70k rifles are for IAF? The link on that tweet says a batch of AK-15s were recently shipped to India destined for State police special units...more likely for Greyhounds and other SWAT teams

IAF in no way needs 70k rifles since the Garuds only number around 1500 with pretty much all of em equipped with Tavors. Though DSC guys provide security to airbases, DSC is under IA. I believe these 70k vanilla 103s are to replace some of those age old AKs which we've captured from terrorists or defunct Insas

 

[Gessler]

How do you know the 70k rifles are for IAF? The link on that tweet says a batch of AK-15s were recently shipped to India destined for State police special units...more likely for Greyhounds and other SWAT teams

IAF in no way needs 70k rifles since the Garuds only number around 1500 with pretty much all of em equipped with Tavors. Though DSC guys provide security to airbases, DSC is under IA. I believe these 70k vanilla 103s are to replace some of those age old AKs which we've captured from terrorists or defunct Insas

That's what I thought but multiple sources are adamant that they are for IAF (including Neeraj Rajput who I trust).

While the actual number of IAF personnel who use a rifle in day-to-day work is low, the armouries are likely to stock enough rifles for most personnel in case of need. The IAF has nearly 140,000 active personnel in total. Currently they mostly stock INSAS in reserve.

 

[Zapper]

That's what I thought but multiple sources are adamant that they are for IAF (including Neeraj Rajput who I trust).

While the actual number of IAF personnel who use a rifle in day-to-day work is low, the armouries are likely to stock enough rifles for most personnel in case of need. The IAF has nearly 140,000 active personnel in total. Currently they mostly stock INSAS in reserve.

We have a lot more to be replaced on an urgent basis before diverting funds to stock up some armory which maybe used by some reserve units...that too IAF. Also, I doubt IAF would be called in for any ops that warrants the purchase of 70k rifles

Even during the Pathankot attack, the limited number of Garuds stationed in that airbase were of no help and NSG had to come in for the rescue...infact, there were reports that IAF was contemplating on calling up Paras or NSG to tackle the situation and decided on NSG given their experience in 26/11 and Pathankot is also an urban theatre situation. You place 140k rifles in all of the IAF personnel and they'd still end up calling NSG/Para since even Garuds have lately turned out to be instagram poster boys

 

[Gessler]

We have a lot more to be replaced on an urgent basis before diverting funds to stock up some armory which maybe used by some reserve units...that too IAF.

Obviously, but I'm not telling you what we SHOULD be buying and for who - I'm telling you what we ARE buying and for who, as per the sources available.

Why we are doing this? If I have to take a guess, like I said it could be us giving the Russians a biscuit and hopefully avoid buying a larger order for AKs for RR/infantry (which in turn may get something better like additional SIG 716s, indigenous alternatives, or something else).

Also, I doubt IAF would be called in for any ops that warrants the purchase of 70k rifles

Even during the Pathankot attack, the limited number of Garuds stationed in that airbase were of no help and NSG had to come in for the rescue...infact, there were reports that IAF was contemplating on calling up Paras or NSG to tackle the situation and decided on NSG given their experience in 26/11 and Pathankot is also an urban theatre situation. You place 140k rifles in all of the IAF personnel and they'd still end up calling NSG/Para since even Garuds have lately turned out to be instagram poster boys

You're not getting it.

Anti-terrorism is not the job of IAF personnel. But what about war time? What if ~1,000 enemy paratroopers descend on an airfield? How would ~100 Garud or NSG stop them? You expect the personnel stationed there to run around unarmed or given a rifle to at least have a chance of defending themselves if the need arises?

FYI, pistol & rifle qualification is done for Air Force personnel for a reason (whether in India or US or any country). Both AF & Navy maintain several tens of thousands of rifles (currently mostly INSAS, used to be SLR) for such purposes.