India Army Small Arms

[crixus]

Its good enough,better then those damn G3's.

You guys are doing pretty good in armaments ...... I can say your drones have even changed the war philosophy of this century

 

[TR_123456]

You guys are doing pretty good in armaments ...... I can say your drones have even changed the war philosophy of this century

Wait for the MIUS.

The Turkish under secretariat for Defence (SSB) and the Turkish UAV producer Baykar has announced that the Turkish unmanned fighter jet aircraft MIUS will conduct this year his first inauguration. It’s estimated that it will be in 2022 in the air and participate in operations.

This aircraft which will work at an altitude of at least 40,000 feet with a weapon payload of 1,5 tons (able to carry air-to-air missiles, high load precision bombs, cruise missiles) will be also able to fly at 1,4 Mach speeds for which the Turkish UAV company Baykar and the Ukrainian engine company Ivchenko Progress will work together and integrate an upgraded version of the AI 25 Turbofan engines. Baykar has announced that the next generation of this aircraft will possess also an internal weapon bay, special RAM coatings, and different type of nozzles with the necessary design shapes to have also stealth features. It will be able to conduct operations on its own with AI features and also fly with the existing F-16s and later the 5th gen. fighter jet MMU together for operations, but at the same time as false targets to overcome enemy SAM systems.

MIUS will be the first step in the Turkish aviation industry to enter the unmanned fighter jet era which is the aim of BAYKAR to bring an unmanned stealth fighter jet in this decade until 2030.

 

[crixus]

Wait for the MIUS.

View attachment 16087

The Turkish under secretariat for Defence (SSB) and the Turkish UAV producer Baykar has announced that the Turkish unmanned fighter jet aircraft MIUS will conduct this year his first inauguration. It’s estimated that it will be in 2022 in the air and participate in operations.

This aircraft which will work at an altitude of at least 40,000 feet with a weapon payload of 1,5 tons (able to carry air-to-air missiles, high load precision bombs, cruise missiles) will be also able to fly at 1,4 Mach speeds for which the Turkish UAV company Baykar and the Ukrainian engine company Ivchenko Progress will work together and integrate an upgraded version of the AI 25 Turbofan engines. Baykar has announced that the next generation of this aircraft will possess also an internal weapon bay, special RAM coatings, and different type of nozzles with the necessary design shapes to have also stealth features. It will be able to conduct operations on its own with AI features and also fly with the existing F-16s and later the 5th gen. fighter jet MMU together for operations, but at the same time as false targets to overcome enemy SAM systems.

MIUS will be the first step in the Turkish aviation industry to enter the unmanned fighter jet era which is the aim of BAYKAR to bring an unmanned stealth fighter jet in this decade until 2030.

The model looks promising, Such projects will definitely give a boost to local R&D, hopefully, one day India and Turkey have some joint projects

 

[Jackdaws]

Army to equip all infantry battalions, not just frontline troops, with US Sig Sauer rifles​

At least 2 companies — about 100 soldiers each — in all infantry battalions are being given Sig 716, irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.​

SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP 15 March, 2021 11:53 am IST


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An Indian Army soldier with the Sig 716 rifle | Photo: Snehesh Alex Philip | ThePrint
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Chaubatia (Uttarakhand): With the much awaited deal for AK 203 getting delayed, the Army is equipping its over 400 infantry battalions with the American Sig Sauer assault rifles, procured under fast-tracked process (FTP), as against the original plan to arm only its frontline troops with the latest weapon.
The Army had initially bought the Sig 716 G2 Patrol assault/battlefield rifles, chambered for the 7.62×51 mm rounds, in 2019 under FTP for frontline soldiers — posted at the borders and involved in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations.


However, all infantry battalions are now getting equipped with the American rifles, sources in the defence establishment said.
This will replace some of the obsolete Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) 5.56×45 mm rifles in use for over two decades.
According to the plan, at least two companies (about 100 soldiers each) in all the infantry battalions are being given the Sig 716 — irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.



The quantity will, however, differ with some of the battalions getting more weapons and the others.
Each infantry battalion of the Army has four companies, commonly referred to as the Alfa, Bravo, Charlie and Delta companies.

However, certain battalions have their own unique names. For example, 1 Mahar as the Whiskey, X Ray, Yankee and Zulu company. 13 Kumaon does not have a Charlie company but is called Rezang La company in honour of the fallen soldiers of C company.


ThePrint had in December 2020 reported that while the initial lot of the modern assault rifles from the US was sent to those guarding the Line of Control with Pakistan and for counter-terrorism operations in Kashmir, troops at the LAC in the northern sector in Ladakh are also being equipped with it now.
In December, the Defence Acquisition Council had accorded approval for the procurement of additional 72,400 Sig 716 rifles for approximately Rs 780 crore. This was also done under FTP and is part of the option clause of the original deal signed in 2019.

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Also read: From next week, troops at LoC and LAC to get new & more lethal Israeli Light Machine Guns

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Shoot to kill​

The Sig 716 rifles are more accurate and lethal than the INSAS because it has a higher caliber — 7.62 mm as against 5.56 mm.

It was in the 1980s that the Indian Army sought a lighter assault rifle chambered to fire the 5.56×45 mm cartridge. It was meant to provide relief to the Indian soldiers who fought the Siachen battle and the LTTE in Sri Lanka with the 5.1 kg Ishapore 7.62×51 mm rifle, but the INSAS has faced constant issues since its introduction in 1998.
At that time, the Army’s logic was that the rifle should injure an enemy soldier. This meant at least 2-3 other soldiers will be required to take away the injured soldier. However, with warfare tactics changing and the Army getting involved in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency operations too, the force wanted a high caliber weapon that is a “shoot to kill system”.

SiG 716 an instant hit with soldiers​

Weighing just 3.82 kg without the magazine, the American rifles were welcomed by the infantry soldiers that ThePrint spoke to.
They explained the rifle has an effective kill range of 600 metres and with greater accuracy than that of the INSAS.
With corking from behind than the side, which is the case in most of the small arms, the rifle becomes ambidextrous.
Even though the butt of the rifle is not collapsible, it comes with six adjustable positions, and hence comes handy in operations.
While the 2019 order for the Sig rifles included a limited set of ammunition, the Army is now using the Ordnance Factory Board rounds meant for the SLR rifles of the late 1980s.
“The Sig 716 is good for operations at the border and also in CI/CT. With a shorter barrel than that of the INSAS, it is good for room intervention operation and for urban warfare,” an officer explained.

AK 203 to be the mainstay of Army​

The formal process to replace the INSAS began over a decade ago, but never saw the light of the day. Among the many reasons was the fact that the Army changed specifications for the replacement twice.
It first wanted a dual-caliber rifle which could shoot two types of cartridges — the AK-47 bullet and the INSAS bullet, much to the dismay of every small arms manufacturer in the world. The Army eventually scrapped the process and then demanded a modified INSAS.
However, in 2018, India and Russia announced a deal to jointly manufacture the AK 103, which was then upgraded to AK 203.
On 3 March 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated an Indo-Russian joint venture, under which AK-203 will be manufactured at the Korwa Ordnance Factory in Uttar Pradesh’s Amethi district.
However, cost negotiations for the over 6 lakh rifles got stuck. This forces the Army to go in for emergency procurement of the SiG 716 rifles in 2019 and again in 2020.
Under the deal, the first 20,000 AK 203 rifles, which will be the mainstay of the armed forces for years to come, will be imported from Russia at a cost of about $1,100 (or Rs 80,000) a piece, depending on the conversion rate.
(Edited by Sanghamitra Mazumdar)

Army to equip all infantry battalions, not just frontline troops, with US Sig Sauer rifles

At least 2 companies — about 100 soldiers each — in all infantry battalions are being given Sig 716, irrespective of whether they are in the field or at peace stations.

theprint.in

Have they signed a ToT agreement?

 

[kaykay]

So we are looking at 2 different assault rifles(Sig sauer 716 G2 and Ak-203) within same battalions. Won't this create logistic problems?

 

[Zapper]

We have one of the most stupid planners in India , they bought the same product three times most probably at 3 three different rates
@UkroTurk 🚬 which rifle your army uses?

We got pretty much the same price for the first two tranches around $950 per rifle and I expect the third contract to cost the same. The dumbest aspect of this is to procure them in 3 different contracts all manufactured in the US. Assuming the 3rd order to be 72k rifles as well, that totals 216k Sig-716s with IA which could've license produced in India and we could've gotten em at a much cheaper rate and would've been a great learning experience for some private Indian defence firm. For instance, despite AK-203 costing around $1.1k, the royalty paid to Kalshnikov is only $82 per rifle

Expect the same dumb move for the carbines contract as well

 

[Zapper]

So we are looking at 2 different assault rifles(Sig sauer 716 G2 and Ak-203) within same battalions. Won't this create logistic problems?

Both rifles are being procured in enough numbers (atleast 216k Sigs and 600k+ AK-203s) which gives us the benefit of volume eliminating logistical issues. As stated above, AK-203s are entirely being manufactured in India with OFB receiving all the funds while only $82 per rifle goes to Russia. OFB is also responsible for manufacturing of spares and after sales maintenance/service which'll all be sourced locally

 

[Zapper]

Have they signed a ToT agreement?

No ToT for the Sigs...only for the AKs which is sorta foolish since AK design is the most copied in the world be it licensed or unlicensed

 

[Zapper]

The model looks promising, Such projects will definitely give a boost to local R&D, hopefully, one day India and Turkey have some joint projects

Very unlikely given pakistan will be relying on Turkey and China for it's defence needs

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397076209637363715

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397076209637363715

I think even SF is moving away from Tavors. Though IA recently received Negev LMGs, SF was looking to procure SCAR-L/H assault rifles, Barrett M107 snipers, MK48 machine guns, M249 LMGs along with Browning 50 cal HMGs to be mounted on Para SF's new Force Motors LSV

Infact, most of the later iterations and improvements on Tavors have been made after input from Indian SF since it's a standard issue to Para SF, Marcos & Garuds ever since their very beginning versions. Even the Israeli SF for instance doesn't use Tavors but M4s instead

 

[Nilgiri]

I think even SF is moving away from Tavors. Though IA recently received Negev LMGs, SF was looking to procure SCAR-L/H assault rifles, Barrett M107 snipers, MK48 machine guns, M249 LMGs along with Browning 50 cal HMGs to be mounted on Para SF's new Force Motors LSV

Infact, most of the later iterations and improvements on Tavors have been made after input from Indian SF since it's a standard issue to Para SF, Marcos & Garuds ever since their very beginning versions. Even the Israeli SF for instance doesn't use Tavors but M4s instead

In any case it all shows what a clunker OFB is. Govt should not do any production for something so common use and vital....to security of all things. i.e guns, ammo, munitions, protective gear you name it....the bread and butter stuff.

It (govt) can act as maybe RnD pooler + dispenser given India is still firmly developing country (and open doors, shake hands with whomever internationally to get that started and going etc)....but it needs actual competent corporate to do production side (hire competent management, machinery, labour etc)....and let our security forces RFP and choose from competitive ecosystem.

Bunch of dunderheads always learning everything 30 years too late and only half-learning it still.

 

[Zapper]

In any case it all shows what a clunker OFB is. Govt should not do any production for something so common use and vital....to security of all things. i.e guns, ammo, munitions, protective gear you name it....the bread and butter stuff.

It (govt) can act as maybe RnD pooler + dispenser given India is still firmly developing country (and open doors, shake hands with whomever internationally to get that started and going etc)....but it needs actual competent corporate to do production side (hire competent management, machinery, labour etc)....and let our security forces RFP and choose from competitive ecosystem.

Bunch of dunderheads always learning everything 30 years too late and only half-learning it still.

Couldn't agree more. I was actually checking out some HD pics of Amogh & JVPC carbines which were procured by some state police forces...the finish was so shoddy that cheap chinese crap 30 years ago was far better

The AK-203 deal which is stuck indefinitely though should've been given to Adani or L&T

 

[Nilgiri]

Thoughts? @Zapper @Kartal1 @FalconSlayersDFI @crixus et al. ?

 

[Kartal1]

Thoughts? @Zapper @Kartal1 @FalconSlayersDFI @crixus et al. ?

The thing I am most impressed about are the SIG-716 battle rifles which are probably the best rifles out there for the role. Looks like they are also equipped with local (?) thermal sights and Israeli made Meprolight holographic sights which are proven and are very good.

When it comes to personal equipment I am not particularly impressed and I think there is a room for more improvement.

When we talk about the protection equipment I can comment on the design the choice of design but can't properly comment on the protection levels.

Looks like the Indian Army came a couple of steps closer for sorting out a problem with the lack of protection. When it comes to the helmet it is very good that it haves a helmet cover. Helmet cover can help a lot in terms of disguise and blending with the surroundings. The problem I have with the helmet is with its design. I think front mount and side rails would fit it nicely and add a bit more versatility and capability of using equipment like night vision goggles or micro lights easily. If we want to make it even better the helmet cover would be good fitted with velcro so additional equipment like batteries (for the NVGs), IR strobes for identification, identification patches (including IR patches) and also very importantly protective eyewear can be optionally mounted.

When we talk about the vest we should note that the particular design is not very modern but there are at least some nice touches to it. Looking at the front side we see a zipper going from top to bottom who is most probably used for getting in and out of the vest. I think this is liability in terms of protection. One of the most important areas which that kind of protection gear should secure is the Aorta artery and it is running like trough the center of the body and such a zipper could jeopardize protection if bullet hits in the middle. Good think about the vest is that they managed to make it lighter by removing a lot of weight from the side and implemented a multifunctional adjustment system which allows for the soldier to control the fit of the vest and also add the capability for mounting additional MOLLE equipment including side panels carrying ballistic plate. they also managed to implement MOLLE webbing at the back allowing the soldier to attach different kinds of equipment including a water bladder which is a good addition in the hard terrain and the heat. I also can see a fast drop system functioning with buckles but in order to work the front zipper should be opened first.

What I don't like about it is the whole concept of using a ballistic vest in that mountainous environment. Judging by the weight (3.5kg) I have doubts in its protective properties and most probably it is capable of stopping small calibers but if place for that is made (some ballistic vests come with that option) additional ballistic plates could be mounted to increase protection level but also with that the weight will increase. I think that better choice for that environment would have been plate carriers which both offer a good amount of protection, better comfort, higher mobility, a perfect level of modularity and also are lower on weight. The main difference between ballistic vests and plate carriers are that the first are made by bulletproof materials and are categorized as soft armor in their nature but they are usually more bulky, heavy and uncomfortable while the plate carriers are made to carry ballistic plates mainly at the front and back side with additional options in the most cases of mounting ballistic plates also on the sides. Additionally in order to increase protection and lessen the traumatic effect of a possible hit a plate carrier can also be fitted with soft armor. In my opinion the better option for mountain warfare is a plate carrier and for urban operations a ballistic vest. Even if the choice was a ballistic vest again I would not argue about that because the Indian Army knows its needs best I would criticize the design and would advice moving onto a design with a velcro front panel used to pinch the ends of the sides which results in successfully mounting the vest and also adjusting it but also would feature uninterrupted MOLLE webbing on the front resulting in better and more comfortable pouch mounting.

Another good addition to the safety gear is the usage of open finger type protection gloves and also an "X" shape elbow and knee pads. While these are very good additions I see a piece of protection equipment with critical importance missing. I don't see eyewear. I think ballistic eyewear usage is piece of equipment that is neglected by many soldiers even if it is present in their gear. They just don't put the eye protection out of laziness but don't realize that even micro projectile, sand, wall putty can seriously damage the eyesight or even result in blindness. With high quality eyewear the soldier's sight can be protected and even after impacts that would usually damage their eyesight they can recover and come back to the fight fast.

In conclusion I would like to say that for me the most important things for one soldier on the battlefield are his psychical strength, the ability of the body to deal with high amounts of physical stress, his knowledge base accumulated trough training and practice, his intuition and the quality of his weapon. With exception of the quality weapon all these qualities can be trained and improved in Indian military training and military academies. The personal equipment is important on the modern battlefield but I think that it is rather a luxury to have it and it is not a decisive factor in the calculation of winning or losing a battle or even a whole war. In the case of the Indian Army while there is a place for improvement in the personal and protective equipment I am impressed by the awesome choice for their standard battle rifle and the usage of high quality electronic sights.

 

[Zapper]

The thing I am most impressed about are the SIG-716 battle rifles which are probably the best rifles out there for the role. Looks like they are also equipped with local (?) thermal sights and Israeli made Meprolight holographic sights which are proven and are very good

Our procurement process is disgustingly flawed that there is no clear sight on how to replace INSAS and AK rifles currently in use. We've procured a total of 144k Sig-716s in two tranches and there is a good chance IA might procure an additional 72k. Only if we had the foresight to induct Sig-716s to majority of the frontline troops, we could've license manufactured those using a private Indian firm for a relatively cheaper price given both the AK-203 and Car-816 deals are likely to be scrapped

While the Sig-716 is a great rifle, the sights used on em are not the most efficient and are often times bulky. Looking at the video, there are a ton of sights used from various firms like MKU, TATA, Eotech, Trijicon, FALKE, Mepro etc reflecting that this is more for photo ops

This soldier uses a regular local made holographic sight
View attachment 26361

But here you can see an extremely bulky sight (with an in-built magnifier though) but he isn't a sniper. The nullifies the 716's lighter weight. Additionally, most 716 are still vanilla with no attachments/night vision/IR or foregrips which are all important for CI ops

View attachment 26362

Looks like the Indian Army came a couple of steps closer for sorting out a problem with the lack of protection. When it comes to the helmet it is very good that it haves a helmet cover. Helmet cover can help a lot in terms of disguise and blending with the surroundings. The problem I have with the helmet is with its design. I think front mount and side rails would fit it nicely and add a bit more versatility and capability of using equipment like night vision goggles or micro lights easily. If we want to make it even better the helmet cover would be good fitted with velcro so additional equipment like batteries (for the NVGs), IR strobes for identification, identification patches (including IR patches) and also very importantly protective eyewear can be optionally mounted.

While it is an evolving process, majority of IA deployed in Kashmir still uses the age old "Patka" which is an obsolete design, not to mention it cannot house any rails for helmet attachments

View attachment 26363

On the brighter side, IA procured the following helmets for the frontline troops from MKU. Fun fact, IA got to know about MKU (based out of Lucknow, UP) during a joint exercise with a NATO unit when foreign troops were seen using MKU helmets. IA never had a concept of looking inwards for tactical equipment since they don't offer kickbacks

- MKU Mukut ACH - Standard Issue, Full Cut + MACS integrated + Integrated Comms. variant (for Commander, 2IC, Squad Leaders...)

- Also High Cut helmets by SRG Tactical

- Other troops have SDRs with separate earwear

In regards to Helmet Mounted Accessories, most troops use
BEL Gen 3 devices, AN/PVS -7 and Tonbo dual-tube NVGs

Unless there is no uniformity in the procurement process, our troops would continue to look shoddy. Most equipment is mission dependent with many reserve units not being trained on usage of certain equipment

 

[FalconSlayersDFI]

Thoughts? @Zapper @Kartal1 @FalconSlayersDFI @crixus et al. ?

Only thoughts that this is most probably fake, or just photo-op. Do all infantry guys get it? I don’t think so, only frontline guys have it.

 

[FalconSlayersDFI]

capable of stopping small calibers

In the LoC, threat is by shrapnel not small arms.

 

[Zapper]

Only thoughts that this is most probably fake, or just photo-op. Do all infantry guys get it? I don’t think so, only frontline guys have it.

Not even all of frontline guys are equipped with that gear. Clearly from the video, their CO must've asked em to grab wateva they could for the photo ops which is why you see atleast 3 different rifles (Sig, INSAS & AK), multiple sights etc...heck the gloves and helmets they're using are not even uniform

 

[Nilgiri]

Only thoughts that this is most probably fake, or just photo-op. Do all infantry guys get it? I don’t think so, only frontline guys have it.

I suppose LoC definition can be quite frontline heh.