TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[MADDOG]

I remember when they used to make jokes and laugh about Turkish drone programs. We got footage of our drones striking targets in libya, syria, iraq, azerbaijan and now ukraine, maybe tomorrow it will be greece.

Hopefully not. But they really are ignorant. It's amazing actually. It has gotten to a point where it's no longer frustrating, it's outright funny. Anyway, let them do their thing. Hopefully we will get some updates on the assembly soon. We will probably be given fewer pics due to the nature of the program.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Mr. Akşit does not say the technology they are using only enables that much. He only says with the cooling measures they took they operating the blades at up to 1800°K. You can not the make inference from his statement that a working temperature of only 1327°C is achieved. You can very well use the blades closer to their upper limits at the cost of reduced operational life. Without knowing their service life an educated guess can not be made. A whole range of new technologies including additive manufacturing is being trialed and possibly outstanding outcomes can be expected when they are done experimenting. When there is a will there is a way, what others have achieved we can very well match. There are still years that we can take trying.

You are trying to distort what I am actually saying to create an argumentative case. If you are an engineer you will undrestand what I mean.
If the bottom and top limit is between 1400K and 1800K, then usually the mean temperature is where the engine works at optimum conditions. When you are an engineer you produce a part that will operate at higher specs than needed to give consistency and longer life to that part. That turbine blade may withstand 1800Kelvin. But at that temperature it’s life will be shorter. You test the part you have produced and set a spec for optimum usage.
They must have checked this and found that to achieve a long life with the turbine blades at top power level, 1400Degrees Celcius (which is 1573Kelvin) gives the 1600HP this engine delivers. Hence, they have been quoting the top 1400degrees Celsius as turbine temperature level to the media. When the engine coasts at cruising speeds under minimum load and power output, the turbine temperatures would be much lower. Ask any pilot how much life they take out of an engine’s life each time they do a somersault. This is when they push the blades way beyond their limits.

 

[Yasar_TR]

What I don’t understand is, this guy is crying out and saying he can manufacture a 35000lbf thrust level turbofan engine that can power TFX with super cruise and infrared suppression. In short a stealth engine.
Why no one is not taking him at his word and giving him the job? He has already proven himself with TS1400.
Give him the job for gods sake!
We are running out of time. Why are we still faffing around with RR and TR Motor?
In fact let them both have a go at it. If both are successful then use both by splitting orders accordingly. Or let them join forces to make it more economical. But the more we delay this the worse it will be for us.

 

[Zafer]

You are trying to distort what I am actually saying to create an argumentative case. If you are an engineer you will undrestand what I mean.
If the bottom and top limit is between 1400K and 1800K, then usually the mean temperature is where the engine works at optimum conditions. When you are an engineer you produce a part that will operate at higher specs than needed to give consistency and longer life to that part. That turbine blade may withstand 1800Kelvin. But at that temperature it’s life will be shorter. You test the part you have produced and set a spec for optimum usage.
They must have checked this and found that to achieve a long life with the turbine blades at top power level, 1400Degrees Celcius (which is 1573Kelvin) gives the 1600HP this engine delivers. Hence, they have been quoting the top 1400degrees Celsius as turbine temperature level to the media. When the engine coasts at cruising speeds under minimum load and power output, the turbine temperatures would be much lower. Ask any pilot how much life they take out of an engine’s life each time they do a somersault. This is when they push the blades way beyond their limits.

I never said you said something so there is no distortion. I only said Mr. Akşit did not put a limit to what the technology they are employing can do.

SSB want to forge the efforts of several parties into one combined effort to make sure the outcome is a satisfactory one similar to how the bald boy in our literature poures the contents of several glasses into one to point to one single glass where the poison surely is. Probably within weeks we will know what RR are thinking and take it from there. I would say 50-50 chance between solo with TR Motor or a consortium of all parties. TR Motor is there to dilute GM involvement.

 

[Tornadoss]

View attachment 46560

Sore losers are at it again!

Honestly if I were Greek, I would genuinely feel ashamed...

This account in twitter constantly shares flaming tweets, just a pure troll.

 

[Khagan1923]

This account in twitter constantly shares flaming tweets, just a pure troll.

This is off-topic but we are entering the "make fun to hide the pain and fear" stage for the greeks. The stage before that was "ignore its existence". Once it rolls-out the stage will advance to "it is fake and can't even fly". Once it flies it will be "go around the world and cry to the US and EU to try and somehow sabotage Turkey's TF-x program".

The same happens over and over again. They never learn, to be honest it is mostly a coping mechanism they have adopted.

 

[Fairon]

What I don’t understand is, this guy is crying out and saying he can manufacture a 35000lbf thrust level turbofan engine that can power TFX with super cruise and infrared suppression. In short a stealth engine.
Why no one is not taking him at his word and giving him the job? He has already proven himself with TS1400.
Give him the job for gods sake!
We are running out of time. Why are we still faffing around with RR and TR Motor?
In fact let them both have a go at it. If both are successful then use both by splitting orders accordingly. Or let them join forces to make it more economical. But the more we delay this the worse it will be for us.

There is something odd happening with Mr Aksit and TEI. During the TS1400 first ignition presentation lots of weird things happened and at some point Mr Aksit says someone sabotaging the presentation. (something along this line)

He is doing and saying everything to be stay relevant. I guess he belives some people try to sideline TEI or try to replace him.(with even sabotaging the projects or undermine and ignore the achivements)

And it seems like either this is true or Mr Aksit try to hide failures with popular statements. There is a reason MMU engine project isn't given to TEI and I hope that reason is for benefit of Turkiye and not just some people.

 

[Huelague]

What I don’t understand is, this guy is crying out and saying he can manufacture a 35000lbf thrust level turbofan engine that can power TFX with super cruise and infrared suppression. In short a stealth engine.
Why no one is not taking him at his word and giving him the job? He has already proven himself with TS1400.
Give him the job for gods sake!
We are running out of time. Why are we still faffing around with RR and TR Motor?
In fact let them both have a go at it. If both are successful then use both by splitting orders accordingly. Or let them join forces to make it more economical. But the more we delay this the worse it will be for us.

I said it multiple times. We need a giant company. Merge Kale and TEI and maybe 1-2 smaller supply companies to form one. If necessary they can take a foreign company like GE or RR for support consultation.

 

[Zafer]

Current composition of the industry is not bad, there is nothing to fix.

 

[Mustafa27]

I said it multiple times. We need a giant company. Merge Kale and TEI and maybe 1-2 smaller supply companies to form one. If necessary they can take a foreign company like GE or RR for support consultation.

How are you planning to do that, when both are joint venture companies. Why would GE and P&W sell their shares?

Edit:
Also this would result in profit loss due to them getting alot work because both of the companies profit from sending work to their Joint ventures.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Valid idea. But like every other country we need good healthy competition in this area too.
Kale has two joint ventures. With P&W and with RR.
TEI, although produce parts for CFM and P&W, has a partnership agreement with GE. But due to their much more advanced know how base and wider experience, they can dabble in engine manufacturing as a sideline, free from GE (like they did with TS1400 turbo shaft).
To allow Kale grow on it’s own is healthier for our jet engine industry.
But I agree with you that in national issues like TFX, there should be more synergy applied between the two companies to get them to work together for the common goal.

 

[Huelague]

Current composition of the industry is not bad, there is nothing to fix.

Is that your opinion?

 

[Huelague]

How are you planning to do that, when both are joint venture companies. Why would GE and P&W sell their shares?

Edit:
Also this would result in profit loss due to them getting alot work because both of the companies profit from sending work to their Joint ventures.

That’s indeed a difficult issue. A case for lawyers.

I don’t think it would result in profit loss. Bigger companies have more capabilities and of course capacities. For more contracts and bigger production lines. Just look at foreign companies.

 

[Huelague]

Valid idea. But like every other country we need good healthy competition in this area too.
Kale has two joint ventures. With P&W and with RR.
TEI, although produce parts for CFM and P&W, has a partnership agreement with GE. But due to their much more advanced know how base and wider experience, they can dabble in engine manufacturing as a sideline, free from GE (like they did with TS1400 turbo shaft).
To allow Kale grow on it’s own is healthier for our jet engine industry.
But I agree with you that in national issues like TFX, there should be more synergy applied between the two companies to get them to work together for the common goal.

I don’t want to eliminate competition. Just create a giant company in the first place. Second part could be done to force a second one.

 

[Zafer]

Is that your opinion?

Of course it is and there is no sign that the industry have complaints about it.

 

[TheInsider]

First of al you need to learn to be polite when you post. Offensive language has no place in our forum. For that I am afraid you have earned yourself a warning.
Secondly you need to listen to Dr Aksit’s words carefully. He doesn’t say anything contrary to what I have been saying. He clearly says the high pressure blades are going to have special air channels to be cut in to them and air blown to cool them. Also he clearly says that these are blades that have not yet been covered with heat resistant finish. They will be covered with that finish before being used. Not as you claimed they would be used as they were. But in this post you seem to have changed your views a little. Which means you are learning.
1400Kelvin = 1124 degrees Celsius
1800Kelvin = 1527 degrees Celsius.
He says they have an operational range between these two temperatures. You never operate at your top limit.
So from engineers’ point of view we are looking at 1327 degrees Celsius operational temperatures. So previous comments about turbine entry temperatures of 1400Celsius still stands.
But to have blades that can withstand up to 1500degrees Celsius are very encouraging. However as the size of blades increase there will be more difficulties.

Turbine section of TS1400 is made out of 2 stages:
1 x High pressure turbine stage (Stg1) : air cooling and heat resistant ceramic finish
1 x Low pressure turbine stage (Stg2) must have special surface finish to stop corrosion.
In engineering we call them turbine stages. Now you know them too.

Today I took the time and directly asked an expert who works in the turbine engine design team at TEI.

First of all let me announce here that the Turkish single crystal superalloy is a second-generation SX superalloy. The chemical properties of the alloy are obviously secret but according to him, it is at a sweet spot where mechanical, thermal, and production costs are optimized. Everyone is happy with how the SX blades perform. There are no huge gains between the second and third-generation SX blades real gains come from cooling optimizations and thermal barriers. In that sense, according to him, our current SX technology is good enough up to 2000 K depending on
1)Cooling solutions (holes/canals and how you place and optimize them)
2)Thermal barriers (multiple barriers will be used for an advanced engine, chemical and mechanical (like thickness etc) properties of all of them will be secret)
3)Design of the engine (how good is your compressor, how much cooling air can you divert from the compressor to cooling holes/canals in SX blades, a single-piece compressor is a huge bonus in that regard)

Blades of the TS-1400 are designed to operate at 1350-1400 degrees celsius and therefore have a minimum amount of processes that can enable them to work in that temperature range. A small cooling canal and ceramic thermal barrier. The same SX blades CAN EASILY BE USED FOR THE ENGINE OF TFX WITH MORE SOPHISTICATED COOLING SOLUTIONS AND THERMAL BARRIERS.
Turkiye won't be developing a third-generation single crystal technology for the TFX engine and will be switching to CMC composite blades in the (far) future. The studies are concentrated on cooling holes/canals, advanced thermal barriers, and advanced production processes like additive manufacturing.

 

[Mustafa27]

People just need to calm down, We still don't know who is going to be chosen, proposal were submitted. Its up to the government to decide which proposal they are going to go with but regardless of the proposal everybody is going to have a share in building the engine.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Today I took the time and directly asked an expert who works in the turbine engine design team at TEI.

First of all let me announce here that the Turkish single crystal superalloy is a second-generation SX superalloy. The chemical properties of the alloy are obviously secret but according to him, it is at a sweet spot where mechanical, thermal, and production costs are optimized. Everyone is happy with how the SX blades perform. There are no huge gains between the second and third-generation SX blades real gains come from cooling optimizations and thermal barriers. In that sense, according to him, our current SX technology is good enough up to 2000 K depending on
1)Cooling solutions (holes/canals and how you place and optimize them)
2)Thermal barriers (multiple barriers will be used for an advanced engine, chemical and mechanical (like thickness etc) properties of all of them will be secret)
3)Design of the engine (how good is your compressor, how much cooling air can you divert from the compressor to cooling holes/canals in SX blades, a single-piece compressor is a huge bonus in that regard)

Blades of the TS-1400 are designed to operate at 1350-1400 degrees celsius and therefore have a minimum amount of processes that can enable them to work in that temperature range. A small cooling canal and ceramic thermal barrier. The same SX blades CAN EASILY BE USED FOR THE ENGINE OF TFX WITH MORE SOPHISTICATED COOLING SOLUTIONS AND THERMAL BARRIERS.
Turkiye won't be developing a third-generation single crystal technology for the TFX engine and will be switching to CMC composite blades in the (far) future. The studies are concentrated on cooling holes/canals, advanced thermal barriers, and advanced production processes like additive manufacturing.

View attachment 46568

View attachment 46569

1. Great your TEI engineer has explained exactly what I have been saying. I agree with everything he has said.
2. you can’t tell me to shut up. This is a forum. I am free to express my views; Especially if I have to correct wrongs.
3. This is not a pissing contest. True! But you are trying your best to do that. You need to learn to be wrong and accept you are wrong when you are.

 

[fire starter]

Today I took the time and directly asked an expert who works in the turbine engine design team at TEI.

First of all let me announce here that the Turkish single crystal superalloy is a second-generation SX superalloy. The chemical properties of the alloy are obviously secret but according to him, it is at a sweet spot where mechanical, thermal, and production costs are optimized. Everyone is happy with how the SX blades perform. There are no huge gains between the second and third-generation SX blades real gains come from cooling optimizations and thermal barriers. In that sense, according to him, our current SX technology is good enough up to 2000 K depending on
1)Cooling solutions (holes/canals and how you place and optimize them)
2)Thermal barriers (multiple barriers will be used for an advanced engine, chemical and mechanical (like thickness etc) properties of all of them will be secret)
3)Design of the engine (how good is your compressor, how much cooling air can you divert from the compressor to cooling holes/canals in SX blades, a single-piece compressor is a huge bonus in that regard)

Blades of the TS-1400 are designed to operate at 1350-1400 degrees celsius and therefore have a minimum amount of processes that can enable them to work in that temperature range. A small cooling canal and ceramic thermal barrier. The same SX blades CAN EASILY BE USED FOR THE ENGINE OF TFX WITH MORE SOPHISTICATED COOLING SOLUTIONS AND THERMAL BARRIERS.
Turkiye won't be developing a third-generation single crystal technology for the TFX engine and will be switching to CMC composite blades in the (far) future. The studies are concentrated on cooling holes/canals, advanced thermal barriers, and advanced production processes like additive manufacturing.

View attachment 46568

View attachment 46569

2nd gen SCB can withstand temp upto 1120° C, with every generation there is gain of upto 30°c.

• SC casted blade, with a decently designed blade cooling techniques, would allow this advantage to go upto ~400 deg C.

• Thermal Barrier Coating (TBC) application - Generally, the 7-8 wt% Yttria Stabilized Zirconia (8YSZ) TBC provides 150 deg C advantage.

A bilayer top-coat consisting of Lanthanum Zirconate (LZ) over 8YSZ applied over "traditional" bond coat of say NiCrAlY enhances the temperature capability of the coating by >100deg.

But developing these technologies especially film cooling and double layer TBC is a challenge it takes more than a decade of consistent efforts. Let's not even talk about rotor CMC blades.

 

[Zafer]

With 3D printing of turbine blades a whole lot of new cooling design possibilities open up.
I wonder if liquid cooling can become possible.