TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Radonsider]

Just a few reasons are:
1. They don’t have enough power to sustain a 5th generation plane’s power requirements (Aesa Radar, avionics and energy weapons like microwave/ laser weapons etc)
2. They are noisy. Stealth planes’ noise levels should be low
3. IR signature too high. Optimisation of nozzle geometry has not been done. Therefore more detectable than a 5th generation plane engine.
4. Air intake has not been optimised to give less RCS .

1- electric generation is not much of a problem, at least for now, and there are also APU's. But yeah in the future an engine with more power gen would be good

2- Noise is not a big problem for now, at least when the F110 TF-X will be around

3-IR signature is not too high, yes it is higher compared to F-22 or F-35 but that's mainly because of lack of secondary air walls. TF-X' still going to have air scoops(F-35) and various other thermal absorbers over the body to achieve IR reduction.

4-Yes, Radar reflection from the back would be a problem, but does this make it "unstealthy"? You can still have refractions from turbines itself in F-35 etc, but radar reflections are reduced there, that's a fact.

5- intake has little to nothing with engine.
+Stealth Wedge intake is still stealth, F-22 has it you know

(If you think about DSI, it limits performance over Mach 1.6
But regardless of TF-X not using it (I suppose), seems like we don't really have the tech to do it, because Kızılelma is not a high speed platform and still has classic stealth wedge, or they plan on making Kızılelma a high speed platform on the future with better engines, who knows)


By this given info, I won't classify this jet as 4.5 gen but a 5th gen with reduced IR performance

 

[Afif]

I don't know if guys know that, there is a new classification for su57 as 4.7 gen fighter. I think, it can be applied for tfx block 0s too!

 

[Afif]

Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.

 

[Tonyukuk]

Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.

To be fair, by the time TFX enters full production, I think Aselsan will have it all figured out. If there's one thing that the Turkish defence industry excels at, its electronic sub systems. I think our only concern with the TFX project should be engines.

 

[Yasar_TR]

1- electric generation is not much of a problem, at least for now, and there are also APU's. But yeah in the future an engine with more power gen would be good

2- Noise is not a big problem for now, at least when the F110 TF-X will be around

3-IR signature is not too high, yes it is higher compared to F-22 or F-35 but that's mainly because of lack of secondary air walls. TF-X' still going to have air scoops(F-35) and various other thermal absorbers over the body to achieve IR reduction.

4-Yes, Radar reflection from the back would be a problem, but does this make it "unstealthy"? You can still have refractions from turbines itself in F-35 etc, but radar reflections are reduced there, that's a fact.

5- intake has little to nothing with engine.
+Stealth Wedge intake is still stealth, F-22 has it you know

(If you think about DSI, it limits performance over Mach 1.6
But regardless of TF-X not using it (I suppose), seems like we don't really have the tech to do it, because Kızılelma is not a high speed platform and still has classic stealth wedge, or they plan on making Kızılelma a high speed platform on the future with better engines, who knows)


By this given info, I won't classify this jet as 4.5 gen but a 5th gen with reduced IR performance

With all due respect to what you have written here, how do you know that electric generation, noise issue, IR signature and sound performance of the F110 engine won’t be any problem? Do you have concrete figures that support your suppositions to share with us?
If what you suppose were the case, there would be no need to develop a 5th generation engine specific to this plane. There would be no mention of 5th generation class engines.

Another point I have not included among the list would be the engine’s thrust potential to be high enough to support plane’s high supercruise capability.

Those guys in TEI and TAI and those guys in P&W and GE must see these points as lacking and not up to 5th generation requirements in the F110 as is. Hence they see the need to develop an engine that is suitable to provide above 5th generation properties.

Regarding engine fan design/inlet of turbofan with respect to stealth properties and electromagnetic scattering;

Quote:
With the continuous advancement of rotor dynamic electromagnetic scattering research, the radar cross-section (RCS) of turbofan engines has attracted more and more attention. In order to solve the electromagnetic scattering characteristics of a biaxial multirotor turbofan engine, a dynamic scattering method (DSM) based on dynamic simulation and grid transformation is presented, where the static RCS of the engine and its components is calculated by physical optics and physical theory of diffraction. The results show that the electromagnetic scattering of the engine is periodic when the engine is working stably, while the rotors such as fans and turbines are the main factors affecting the dynamic electromagnetic scattering and the ducts greatly increase the overall RCS level of the engine. The proposed DSM is effective and efficient for studying the dynamic electromagnetic scattering characteristic of the turbofan engine.

Unquote

PS
APU of all jet planes are there for starting power for the main engines, Pneumatic power for cabin air conditioning systems, Shaft power for other pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Back up and emergencies, Electric and pneumatic power for ground operations with the engines shut down.
Nothing to do with 5th generation power requirements.

 

[Radonsider]

Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.

From Anatolian Eagle 2021/2, it was stated that BEOS will have greatly better quality than ASELPOD, so I don't think that there will be problems with BEOS,
So about IRST, I need to check what they offer, but the chances are I can't find anything.
But with given experience of ASELSAN in thermal sights (which is top tier), I don't think that they would create a bad one, and having both BEOS and IRST is because of cooling and performance iirc.
And the new IRST hub is stealthy, just like BEOS and EOTS.
DASS (FSS) is also a branch of thermals, but I am not so sure about how they gather image and produce it, but as I said before, ASELSAN has good experience for these on ground.

Also, even if we know, we can't give you the stats.

 

[Radonsider]

With all due respect to what you have written here, how do you know that electric generation, noise issue, IR signature and sound performance of the F110 engine won’t be any problem? Do you have concrete figures that support your suppositions to share with us?
If what you suppose were the case, there would be no need to develop a 5th generation engine specific to this plane. There would be no mention of 5th generation class engines.

Another point I have not included among the list would be the engine’s thrust potential to be high enough to support plane’s high supercruise capability.

Those guys in TEI and TAI and those guys in P&W and GE must see these points as lacking and not up to 5th generation requirements in the F110 as is. Hence they see the need to develop an engine that is suitable to provide above 5th generation properties.

Regarding engine fan design/inlet of turbofan with respect to stealth properties and electromagnetic scattering;

Quote:
With the continuous advancement of rotor dynamic electromagnetic scattering research, the radar cross-section (RCS) of turbofan engines has attracted more and more attention. In order to solve the electromagnetic scattering characteristics of a biaxial multirotor turbofan engine, a dynamic scattering method (DSM) based on dynamic simulation and grid transformation is presented, where the static RCS of the engine and its components is calculated by physical optics and physical theory of diffraction. The results show that the electromagnetic scattering of the engine is periodic when the engine is working stably, while the rotors such as fans and turbines are the main factors affecting the dynamic electromagnetic scattering and the ducts greatly increase the overall RCS level of the engine. The proposed DSM is effective and efficient for studying the dynamic electromagnetic scattering characteristic of the turbofan engine.

Unquote

PS
APU of all jet planes are there for starting power for the main engines, Pneumatic power for cabin air conditioning systems, Shaft power for other pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Back up and emergencies, Electric and pneumatic power for ground operations with the engines shut down.
Nothing to do with 5th generation power requirements.

1- I said they are not an issue for now, they will be a problem when TAI/Havelsan decides to increase AI etc. And keep in mind that 2 of these F110s also keep F-15EX at the sky, yeah TF-X will probably consume more power, but at least for IOC, it should be enough.

I didn't said F110 won't have IR problems, but it won't be a great difference, as IR performance hugely depends on air scoops and thermal isolation of the body, you can't really achieve IR stealth with only engine or only body, that's why I said it will have worse IR, but this doesn't mean that it is going to shine

As you can see, in non IR stealth jets, body around the engine shines while in F-22, only where the engine is situated shines, and that's the result of body and engine combined.

For noise, at least for now, or for the limited time it is going to be used, there are no noise triangulation method to find enemy aircraft, there will definetly be in the future, but not for now.


Yes you are right about supercruise, it wont be around 1.5-1.6 Mach with F110 for sure, but I didn't list it either because most of 5th gens don't have high supercruise capability.

Hmm, so you were talking about "fan" inlet and blades, yes you are right, but how much is it going to affect and we just dump down all geometric stealth and call it a 4.5?

And yes you are right, I confused it with electric generation on ground to electric generation on air.


PS: I never said we don't need an engine, I just stated the reason why it can't be 4.5th gen with it, for it to be 4.5, it must lack VLO geometry+RAM, and KF-21 lacks:
Serrated edges, RAM (to some extent), canopy coating and various other stealth features, that's why it is not a true 5th gen but something in between 4.5 and 5


TF-X is like J-20 with older engines, it is still 5th gen because VLO and subsystems but lacks IR stealth of engine and has worse performance than what it should have

 

[Radonsider]

I don't know if guys know that, there is a new classification for su57 as 4.7 gen fighter. I think, it can be applied for tfx block 0s too!

Su-57 lacks VLO geometry, what about 4.9?

 

[Yasar_TR]

PS: I never said we don't need an engine, I just stated the reason why it can't be 4.5th gen with it, for it to be 4.5, it must lack VLO geometry+RAM,

TF-X is like J-20 with older engines, it is still 5th gen because VLO and subsystems

I hate these abbreviations. They mean so many different things.
Predominantly VLO in aviation is the maximum Velocity for Landing-gear Operation.
But I suppose you meant Very Low Observable?

 

[Radonsider]

I hate these abbreviations. They mean so many different things.
Predominantly VLO in aviation is the maximum Velocity for Landing-gear Operation.
But I suppose you meant Very Low Observable?

Yes D

 

[Afif]

From Anatolian Eagle 2021/2, it was stated that BEOS will have greatly better quality than ASELPOD, so I don't think that there will be problems with BEOS,
So about IRST, I need to check what they offer, but the chances are I can't find anything.
But with given experience of ASELSAN in thermal sights (which is top tier), I don't think that they would create a bad one, and having both BEOS and IRST is because of cooling and performance iirc.
And the new IRST hub is stealthy, just like BEOS and EOTS.
DASS (FSS) is also a branch of thermals, but I am not so sure about how they gather image and produce it, but as I said before, ASELSAN has good experience for these on ground.

Also, even if we know, we can't give you the stats.

Of course, BEOS will have better quality than aselpod! ( I mean aselpod is 3rd Gen targeting pod with no hd MWR or SWR. ) however, how do you know that BEOS was tested in Anatolian eagle? I mean it not a targeting pod that can be fitied with f16 of f4, it is an integrated EOTS in tfx main air frame! And also aselsan doesn't have the aselflir 500/600 yet, which is supposed to be all around hd like wescam mx15/25. ( so it is not seems very realistic that, BEOS already in testing ) And 'f35's dass is not just bunch of thermals!' it is the world most sophisticated IR sensor operating in ultra violate wavelength, Devoloped by Northrop as one and only in its class. And aselsan doesn't have any experience in that area or in IRST. As the tfx's IRST will be the aselsan's first IRST product. Last but not the least, if you were important enough to know the classified specs, you wouldn't be here on that forum with bunch of amateurs like us ( no offense )

 

[Radonsider]

Of course, BEOS will have better quality than aselpod! ( I mean aselpod is 3rd Gen targeting pod with no hd MWR or SWR. ) however, how do you know that BEOS was tested in Anatolian eagle? I mean it not a targeting pod that can be fitied with f16 of f4, it is an integrated EOTS in tfx main air frame! And also aselsan doesn't have the aselflir 500/600 yet, which is supposed to be all around hd like wescam mx15/25. ( so it is not seems very realistic that, BEOS already in testing ) And 'f35's dass is not just bunch of thermals!' it is the world most sophisticated IR sensor operating in ultra violate wavelength, Devoloped by Northrop as one and only in its class. And aselsan doesn't have any experience in that area or in IRST. As the tfx's IRST will be the aselsan's first IRST product. Last but not the least, if you were important enough to know the classified specs, you wouldn't be here on that forum with bunch of amateurs like us ( no offense )

Haha, I just said that ASELSAN has experience in IR field before, so they wouldn't bring a bad product.

Also, I didn't want to make DAS look easy to do neither

 

[Afif]

I understand! Now, greek f35s propably wouldn't be that much of a big problem as they are in small number 18/24. TAF probably would be able to take out some of them on the ground. However, It is the israeli f35 fleets ( 75) I think is the real strategic challenge for TAF. And from my personal reading and research i think the decisive factor between the f35 block 4 and TFX will the the sensor fusion and passive detection capabilities ( systems like dass and EOTS. ) most people are keen to compare the main radar of the fighter! Is It GaS or GaN based? Or how many transmitter modules it has? But in reality the fifth gen fighter's primary detection system (unlike the 4.5 gen fighter) are it's passive systems like ew suite, EOTS and dass. When two fifth gen fighter ended up on the opposite side in a combat senario they use their main radar very selectively or not use it at all ( 100 percent stealth with all kind RF silence much like the morden submarine that only listen and doesn't use the active sonar ) it becouse the latest generation ESMs are very sensitive that they can even pick up the morden LPI aesa radar from a considerable distance ( for exapmle, in 2009 in a exercise f35's baracuda was able pick up the f22's apg77 which in it self can change the pulse 1000 time in just one second to keep the LPI ! However, f35 ew suite is deeply integrated with the central computer which give it massive amount of processing and filtering power. it is believed that a very morden esm can pick up just 1 watt from more than 20 km. Now every single GaS based aesa transmitter has usually 10 watt transmitting power ( So if a radar has 1000 T/R modules it power peak would be more or less10 kw. ) So even you are using the only 4/10 or 5/10 time transmitting power of aesa radar to keep the LPI, very morden highly sensitive ESM can still pick you up from a considerable distance.( and that's another reason why America is not that much interested in putting a GaN based aesa radar on f35. As more power peak doesn't have that much practical use except for electronic attack capability. ) So in the end it is come down to the sensor fusion capability EOTS and dass like systems. So I think that's the area where TFX need to excell in order to compete with f35. Last but not the least TFX need a good BVR missile. It seems, people are very excited about the combination of the liquid ramjet powered gokhan with the TFX, however gokhan is not a very ideal choice for tfx! a new gokdogan ER even with shortar range than gokhan will be much better for tfx. If Anyone find this reading interesting, let me know if you have more questions!

 

[Radonsider]

I understand! Now, greek f35s propably wouldn't be that much of a big problem as they are in small number 18/24. TAF probably would be able to take out some of them on the ground. However, It is the israeli f35 fleets ( 75) I think is the real strategic challenge for TAF. And from my personal reading and research i think the decisive factor between the f35 block 4 and TFX will the the sensor fusion and passive detection capabilities ( systems like dass and EOTS. ) most people are keen to compare the main radar of the fighter! Is It GaS or GaN based? Or how many transmitter modules it has? But in reality the fifth gen fighter's primary detection system (unlike the 4.5 gen fighter) are it's passive systems like ew suite, EOTS and dass. When two fifth gen fighter ended up on the opposite side in a combat senario they use their main radar very selectively or not use it at all ( 100 percent stealth with all kind RF silence much like the morden submarine that only listen and doesn't use the active sonar ) it becouse the latest generation ESMs are very sensitive that they can even pick up the morden LPI aesa radar from a considerable distance ( for exapmle, in 2009 in a exercise f35's baracuda was able pick up the f22's apg77 which in it self can change the pulse 1000 time in just one second to keep the LPI ! However, f35 ew suite is deeply integrated with the central computer which give it massive amount of processing and filtering power. it is believed that a very morden esm can pick up just 1 watt from more than 20 km. Now every single GaS based aesa transmitter has usually 10 watt transmitting power ( So if a radar has 1000 T/R modules it power peak would be more or less10 kw. ) So even you are using the only 4/10 or 5/10 time transmitting power of aesa radar to keep the LPI, very morden highly sensitive ESM can still pick you up from a considerable distance.( and that's another reason why America is not that much interested in putting a GaN based aesa radar on f35. As more power peak doesn't have that much practical use except for electronic attack capability. ) So in the end it is come down to the sensor fusion capability EOTS and dass like systems. So I think that's the area where TFX need to excell in order to compete with f35. Last but not the least TFX need a good BVR missile. It seems, people are very excited about the combination of the liquid ramjet powered gokhan with the TFX, however gokhan is not a very ideal choice for tfx! a new gokdogan ER even with shortar range than gokhan will be much better for tfx. If Anyone find this reading interesting, let me know if you have more questions!

well all the things about LPI, most of the cliams are, claims. The problem with intercepting LPI is modern LPI radars can mix and match their signals with background noise, they are nearly undetectable. So thats why both sides will be using radar and EW. And intercepting radars are usually not about power but wavelength itself, with better output you can get better width, tho this also needs a change on T/R modules.
And keep in midn that TF-X is going to also have these systems, they might be not that F-35 good but it is not like it cant use these systems.
Yes, IOC TF-X will need a lot of things "fixed" by the experience gained, but the biggest plus would be also that. Greece would need to wait a lot of time to upgrade their F-35s while we can do it easily by the info we have gathered. This also happned with drone systems we have made. Especially EW systems they have.
Now, the challenge is to do a bigger EW suite compared to smaller EW suites on UCAVs. Kızılelma will be a good test platform for that as it also is going to have internal EW. It would have been very good if it had a system like FSS, maybe they are planning to do something like that with the later models.

And for BVR, Gökdoğan is good enough, for now.

I think that a Gökdoğan mini would be better than Gökdoğan ER or Gökhan to carry more BVR missiles. Like Peregrine. 8 instead of 4. Or Gökdoğan-ER and Gökhan should have foldable fins.
But I would like to have a Peregrine like missile to carry 10 BVR (they can probably fit inside side stations). or 2 SOM-Js with 2 BVR ready while now it can carry 2 BVR with 1 SOM-J.

Oh and a massive advantage of TF-X over other 5th gen air dominance aircraft is it can crry cruise missiles. The others dont have the depth to carry them

 

[Zafer]

We can always upgrade the TFX. Whenever there is a new capability acquisition we can deploy it on the TFX fleet witout delay.

 

[Heartbang]

@Afif @Radonsider call me an optimist if you will but i dont think Greece is going to be able to get their F35s. it looks like they are dragging into the quagmire that is the EU energy crunch.

 

[Radonsider]

@Afif @Radonsider call me an optimist if you will but i dont think Greece is going to be able to get their F35s. it looks like they are dragging into the quagmire that is the EU energy crunch.

Well i do agree with you, even if they, it wouldnt be before 2030s because of the production queue

 

[Afif]

Morden aesa LPI nearly undetectable is not very accurate discritption ( no offense ) what is true is morden aesa are nearly immune to jamming . And blending the singnal with background noise only work against old ESM. The new ESM are far more sensitive as they can pick 1 watt from 20km away. And when it comes to background noise it mostly about power output! Most of the noise are below the 1 or 2 watt ( for example data links ) And also you can't detect small object from a considerable distance with very low output like 1 or 2 watt. You have to at least transmitt 3 /4 watt per transmitter. But as I said frequency changing doesn't work against f35 EW suite as apg 77 can change frequency thousend time per second randomly ( which is a significant capability to keep LPI profile, as by changing frequency the wavelength will also change by definition) and yet baracuda was able picked it up. However even if you can pick it up it is not practically possible process the signals fast enough to mimick every single with your own radar to perform an DRFM jamming. However, it may possible to get an passive firing solution. Anyway radar wouldn't be that much of issue as both jet (f35 and tfx) stealth enough to be not being picked up by the opponent before 40/50 km. And At that range, other sensors will already likely to pick up the other. Last but not the least a mini gokdogan doesn't seem to be a very good idea as it will put the aircraft in dangerously close spot from the opponent. Also us airforce doesn't seems to very interested in peregrine . And no, tfx not the only 5th gen to carry cruise missile f35 can to .

 

[Radonsider]

Morden aesa LPI nearly undetectable is not very accurate discritption ( no offense ) what is true is morden aesa are nearly immune to jamming . And blending the singnal with background noise only work against old ESM. The new ESM are far more sensitive as they can pick 1 watt from 20km away. And when it comes to background noise it mostly about power output! Most of the noise are below the 1 or 2 watt ( for example data links ) And also you can't detect small object from a considerable distance with very low output like 1 or 2 watt. You have to at least transmitt 3 /4 watt per transmitter. But as I said frequency changing doesn't work against f35 EW suite as apg 77 can change frequency thousend time per second randomly ( which is a significant capability to keep LPI profile, as by changing frequency the wavelength will also change by definition) and yet baracuda was able picked it up. However even if you can pick it up it is not practically possible process the signals fast enough to mimick every single with your own radar to perform an DRFM jamming. However, it may possible to get an passive firing solution. Anyway radar wouldn't be that much of issue as both jet (f35 and tfx) stealth enough to be not being picked up by the opponent before 40/50 km. And At that range, other sensors will already likely to pick up the other. Last but not the least a mini gokdogan doesn't seem to be a very good idea as it will put the aircraft in dangerously close spot from the opponent. Also us airforce doesn't seems to very interested in peregrine . And no, tfx not the only 5th gen to carry cruise missile f35 can to .

TF-X is the only 5th gen air *dominance*

 

[Afif]

TF-X is the only 5th gen air *dominance*

What about f22 j20 and su57 aren't they air dominance fighter's?