TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Rooxbar]

Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.

 

[uçuyorum]

Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.

I mean it starts with a vision. 4th gen had a vision about agility, 5th gen had the idea of stealth. I feel like EU just went we wanna make a 6th gen fighter and one up US in aviation yet didn't have a clear vision. But they couldn't agree with each other because multiple large companies like BAE, Leonardo, Dassault, Airbus etc. too many chefs in the kitchen so we have 2 projects. It feels like US has a far clearer idea of what they are trying to achieve with NGAD with the dominate air with all systems working together and all means necessary concept. There is no other air force with comparable scale and reach, these are what determines practical requirements. But even then as 4th gen went on F16 evolved away from agile dogfighter to something completely else and that's probably why F35 is so fat with so many components.

 

[dBSPL]

In conclusion, the fact that the MMU project will make its first flight at prototype level in 2023 will, if all goes well, give it a distinct advantage over other European projects, which are still 10 years away from their first flight at best and claiming to reach 6th generation probably for another 10 years. There are many important challenges for the Turkish aviation industry to face, the most important of which will be in the area of engine development. We cannot ignore these risk factors, but the fact that we have been able to bring things to this point without going beyond the project schedule is in itself one of the points where our industry has proven its mettle.

In the 2040s, MMU will be one of the most unknown X factors of the European skies and will create a strategic multiplier for TR. Moreover, when we reach those years, we will probably have achieved the first flight experience in our optionally manned combat jet project in the style of the image shared by dear Afif above.

In 20 years, it is more or less predictable where KE and Anka-3 will be and what the new aircraft that will come as the successors of these projects will be. In the last two decades, there has been a significant concentration, will and technological accumulation in the field of combat aviation, from tactical level to front-line fighters. In order to understand the results of this, it is necessary to look at it over a period of ten-to-ten years. Almost all of the work that we are proud of today is based on work that offically started ten years ago. To understand where we are ten years from now, it is necessary to understand the acceleration of the past decade.

I can think of nothing better to symbolize the new century of the Republic than the first flight of the MMU and KE together. This phrase is not a cliché, we could write thousands of pages about it.

 

[Rodeo]

Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.

The problem of 6th gen designation was discussed last year in this thread. You can head to page 280 and read from there.

This was from @Windchime on Dec 9,2022

So, which feature could warrant a fighter jet "6th gen" nameplate? A generational difference indicates a difference that fundamentally cannot be achieved by previous generations. Well, unless you significantly alter the origonal design, which at that point I'll rather call it a different plane.

For example a 1st gen fighter could never achieve supersonuc speeds on level flight or doing combat maneuvers. 2nd gen can't BVR since most of them don't have the provisons for the necessary avionics, nor the generator capacity. 3rd gen distributed avionics cannot be replaced with a federated one. 4th gen isn't stealth. All of those are what I would call a generational difference.

In that sense it is very hard to distinguish a feature that cannot be implemented onto the current 5th generational figthers, or more to be exact the F-35 and J-20 and those which could be. DEW or man-unmanned teaming often gets brought up, but those are things that the USAF are considering for future F-35 blocks. AI is already implemented to a certain degree, and a higher sophistication could be achieved with a better computer and software, which aren't irreplaceable for an integrated modular design of F-35. VCE is also being considered for block-4 with existing prototypes. Almost every other features brought up in this thread are already being implemented to 5th gen or could be implemented.

One thing I could think of is a wide-band stealth technology, or in simpler terms removing, or at least reducing vertical planes of the aircraft. Then again this was already explored with the likes of YF-23.

My suggestion would be to just wait for NGAD to arrive. US has been the pioneer in this regard for decades now and will almost certainly suggest us what the definition of 6th gen might or should be.

One thing's for certain though, and that's that the MMU cannot be 6th gen for obvious reasons. So are F-35, J-20 or J-35. I think there's a high chance that the GCAP and NGF are rather 5.5th ven fighters, not 6th gen when they arrive. Same thing happened in the 80s and 90s when the US was busy developing ATF while Europe was still stuck with EAP. No one can say for certain that same thing won't happen again in 2020s and 30s.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

In conclusion, the fact that the MMU project will make its first flight at prototype level in 2023 will, if all goes well, give it a distinct advantage over other European projects, which are still 10 years away from their first flight at best and claiming to reach 6th generation probably for another 10 years. There are many important challenges for the Turkish aviation industry to face, the most important of which will be in the area of engine development. We cannot ignore these risk factors, but the fact that we have been able to bring things to this point without going beyond the project schedule is in itself one of the points where our industry has proven its mettle.

In the 2040s, MMU will be one of the most unknown X factors of the European skies and will create a strategic multiplier for TR. Moreover, when we reach those years, we will probably have achieved the first flight experience in our optionally manned combat jet project in the style of the image shared by dear Afif above.

Europe actually had superior technology in the field of unmanned systems in the times when we demand armed drones from West but although they made technology demonstration projects for gas turbine propelled systems on unmanned systems, they could not place such systems in their armies in terms of operational capability. They have cancelled some of their projects because of monetary issues or other things. That's why what Turkiye did on the battlefield with a low speed and cheap tactical drone created a wake-up call for them in last years and we saw headlines in their mainstream media that we hadn't seen before in favor of Turkish drone technology because they had never predicted such a result in multiple battlefield and we faced lots of embargos in the end.

Nowadays, we experience at a time when European perception doesn't take Turkish aviations (supersonic field) capabilities seriously, Turkiye launched the prototype of light combat aircraft and 5th generation fighter jet before Europe and also prototypes of 2 unmanned fighter aircrafts are gaining operational capabilities and future variants will have supersonic features as well.

One day in the future, when they see that we use TFX/KE/Anka3-4 systems effectively in the Turkish war concept and defeat the enemy, they will again realize the seriousness of the things Turks have done. That's why I think that the cooperability skills, AI capabilities of those systems and Turkish unamnned/manned tactics and EW capabilities should always be kept a secret in order for the surprise effect of these systems to be felt most deeply on the other side when the time come.

No one should be able to guess what this tactical understanding which destroyed the most famous air defense systems of Russians with a small propeller drone, could do with these new systems and way superior technologies/munitions, until an enemy whose brain came out and demanded punishment.

 

[MADDOG]

"We signed a protocol with Ege University Rector Mr. Necdet Budak to establish an Advanced Coatings, Thin Films and Surface Research Laboratory."

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1640645779848085504

Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir: "MMU will have various power tests etc. After that, we would like to give a clearer day. We said 2025-26 at the beginning. We say let's pull it to 2024. Actually, we say good surprise is good. Stay tuned.

Let's not get too tight in aviation, especially in flight. Our friends step on the gas more when they see the light at the end of the tunnel. Our friends are going to make sweet surprises..."

 

[Windchime]

I think our hi-lo mix in manned jets is going to be hi-legacy for a while. We modernize many F-16s and they should be able to work until the 2040s for the ROI of that investment to make sense. 20 years from now we can much more easily design a new low-type plane.

In fact, there were not much air force around the world that was actually able to afford any kind of "hi" fighter in the first place, and of those who could actually afford a hi fighter, not all went with the hi-lo force structure (especially the Europeans).

Also, USAF, the founders of hi-lo force structure themselves, slowly moved away from the idea ever since the F-16 became a multi-role workhorse fighter. This is especially true with current F-35, which at its inception was meant to be a lo fighter that supplements F-22 and replace F-16, A-10, Harrier etc but is now even replacing some F-15s, became an omnipotent fighter with humungous cost, it really isn't much of a "lo" fighter any more it seems.

Turkiye for one never had a hi fighter before MMU and for that, one could call MMU kind of a turning point in the THK history.

I also largely agree with you about the fact that current trend is shifting from the old concept of "hi-lo" to "next gen-legacy". For one, it seems like any kind of 5th gen fighter is already inherently too expensive due to its complexity, hence the case of F-35 I've described above. A lot of the air forces around the world are going for a next gen-legacy mix, although as with hi-lo mix, not all of them are following the trend (Australia and smaller European countries like Finland, Belgium etc are just phasing out their legacy fighters all together in favor of F-35).

 

[TheInsider]

In fact, there were not much air force around the world that was actually able to afford any kind of "hi" fighter in the first place, and of those who could actually afford a hi fighter, not all went with the hi-lo force structure (especially the Europeans).

Also, USAF, the founders of hi-lo force structure themselves, slowly moved away from the idea ever since the F-16 became a multi-role workhorse fighter. This is especially true with current F-35, which at its inception was meant to be a lo fighter that supplements F-22 and replace F-16, A-10, Harrier etc but is now even replacing some F-15s, became an omnipotent fighter with humungous cost, it really isn't much of a "lo" fighter any more it seems.

Turkiye for one never had a hi fighter before MMU and for that, one could call MMU kind of a turning point in the THK history.

I also largely agree with you about the fact that current trend is shifting from the old concept of "hi-lo" to "next gen-legacy". For one, it seems like any kind of 5th gen fighter is already inherently too expensive due to its complexity, hence the case of F-35 I've described above. A lot of the air forces around the world are going for a next gen-legacy mix, although as with hi-lo mix, not all of them are following the trend (Australia and smaller European countries like Finland, Belgium etc are just phasing out their legacy fighters all together in favor of F-35).

The US is bringing back the hi-lo. F-35 will be lo and NGAD will be hi. There won't be a lot of hi stealth fighters around 2030. The options are J-20, TF-X, and NGAD. NGAD and J-20 probably won't be available for sale to anyone. Tempest and FCAS are targeted for the 2040s.

 

[Gary]

The "Lo" F-35 will be more advanced than anything that'll fly till at least 2050.

2nd only to NGAD

 

[Afif]

The "Lo" F-35 will be more advanced than anything that'll fly till at least 2050.

2nd only to NGAD

Nuh, Tempset, FCAS and Chinese 6th gen program will arrive around 2040.

You can't expect F35 to outperform them because of obvious physical limitations.

One engine cannot provide as much power for sensors and avionics as twin engine would. Its weapon bay is small. Its aerodynamic performance would be considerably less than any twin engine next gen platform.

 

[Gary]

Nuh, Tempset, FCAS and Chinese 6th gen program will arrive around 2040.

You can expect F35 to outperform them because of obvious physical limitations.

One engine cannot provide as much power for sensors and avionics as twin engine would. Its weapon bay is small. Is aerodynamic performance would be considerably less than any twin engine next gen platform.

SCAF/FCAS would be introduced in 2035-2040 timeframe, that is at best, optimistic expectation from the manufacturer, and then there will be long test flight, fixing bugs, enhancement, low rate production and then technology insertion which who knows will drag the project for how long. Especially that Germany and France will have a lot of convocation about who's going to do what.

Tempest (now GCAP) will fly 2030 , again another optimistic expectation, and early production aircraft will be baseline version (likely) pending technology insertion. Which again took time.

China ? Well yeah they're the closest one here when it comes to fighters tech to the U.S and likely to fly earnest.

F-35 is now on its way to Block IV and would be fitted with variable cycle engine (200kN or even more) designed to accommodate future requirement on power and it will still be incrementally upgraded overtime to block V, block VI and so on.

It might lose its edge in the 40s gradually, but when that time comes the F-35 replacement will again make competitors looks obsolete. I have no doubt in that.

 

[Zafer]

A lot of prophecy going on here.

 

[Afif]

SCAF/FCAS would be introduced in 2035-2040 timeframe, that is at best, optimistic expectation from the manufacturer, and then there will be long test flight, fixing bugs, enhancement, low rate production and then technology insertion which who knows will drag the project for how long. Especially that Germany and France will have a lot of convocation about who's going to do what.

Yes.

Tempest (now GCAP) will fly 2030 , again another optimistic expectation, and early production aircraft will be baseline version (likely) pending technology insertion. Which again took time.

No, the first prototype will fly by 2027/28.
I am not gonna call it over optimistic because what we saw with TFX development it is very possible.

F-35 is now on its way to Block IV and would be fitted with variable cycle engine (200kN or even more) designed to accommodate future requirement on power

It seems they are abandoning the plan for adaptive cycle engine.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/usaf-favours-pandw-f-35-engine-upgrade-over-adaptive-cycle-engine-replacement/152449.article&ved=2ahUKEwjqgaPgi4H-AhWQPewKHd0zBi4QFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw162j4UKyCJlPhaEgWSTgor

but when that time comes the F-35 replacement will again make competitors looks obsolete. I have no doubt in that.

No, in 2040s at least China would much closer to us in fighter technology.

 

[Fighter_35]

what other stuff?

Many parts are foreign sourced in hurjet, since they focus on aircatft and making it ready before TFX. Only engine cost is more than 15 percent of hurjet, other stuff is components bought directly from abroad. The important point is given ratio, it can not reach 90 percent with out local engine and there is no such thing in near future. Since they are focusing on TFX engine not hurjet engine.

 

[Fighter_35]

You do know what "goal" means, right? In case you don't know, here, let me google that for you.

I know thanks. I am telling that the goal is not realistic and bullshit. Since there is no local engine option . Since they are giving priority to TFX engine, hurjet will be with foreigner one hence we can not talk about 90 percent locality, at best with 75-80 percent locality.

 

[MADDOG]

Comparison by @buchmaru

 

[Windchime]

The US is bringing back the hi-lo. F-35 will be lo and NGAD will be hi. There won't be a lot of hi stealth fighters around 2030. The options are J-20, TF-X, and NGAD. NGAD and J-20 probably won't be available for sale to anyone. Tempest and FCAS are targeted for the 2040s.

The NGAD-F-35 mix is exactly the case for the Next gen-legacy force compositon me and godel44 are talking about. NGAD will be fundamentally different from the F-35 and hence it is not suited to say it is a hi-lo mix.

There was also a separate discussion of a 6th gen hi-lo mix in terms of the digital century, which at current situation seems like an approach to design UAVs for the MUM-T between the NGAD manned fighter and wingman drones. In that sense the 6th gen systems of sytems approach will be a next gen-legacy mix coupled with hi-lo mix, in which the "lo" will be attritable drones.

Important part here is "attritable", which I don't think the both the Kızılelma and ANKA-3 are. With Turkish experience in designing drones I don't think it will be a difficult matter, though. Future force mix for large air forces might even be hi-mid-lo, where the "mid" part is fulfilled by capable wingman drones like KE whereas lo by attritable, cheaper and more numerous drones. Anyways, all this meaning a lot of responsibilities for the MMU in the future.

 

[TheInsider]

The "Lo" F-35 will be more advanced than anything that'll fly till at least 2050.

2nd only to NGAD

I prefer post-2030 TFX against F-35 any day.

 

[Oublious]

F-35 is now on its way to Block IV and would be fitted with variable cycle engine (200kN or even more) designed to accommodate future requirement on power and it will still be incrementally upgraded overtime to block V, block VI and so on.

They will go further with upgrading the old engine.

Air Force Abandons New F-35 Engine in Favor of Upgrades

If approved by Congress, it’s a win for F-35 engine maker Pratt & Whitney and a blow to General Electric.

www.defenseone.com