TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Gary

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True, that is why I think TFX should be able to super cruise with F110.
I mean due to lower weight, the TWR will increase slightly even though the F110 isn't as powerful as F119
 

uçuyorum

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"During the second half of 2022, Tusaş has awarded a new contract to GE to build a disclosed number of F110GE129E engines (with local oroduction option) for first and second batches (40 aircrafts)"

Decenceturkey magazine 121. Issue
So that's what Temel Kotil meant when some of TFX will be delivered with "yerli" engines in 2028, as in locally produced F110
 

TheInsider

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Both TRMotor and TEI (majority shares) are owned by TUSAŞ so TUSAŞ is developing its own engine. TF-X national engine project is progressing well.
 
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Era_shield

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So that's what Temel Kotil meant when some of TFX will be delivered with "yerli" engines in 2028, as in locally produced F110
Unlikely. TEI already makes them, there's no reason why it would take all the way to 2028 for that to happen. 2028 is when the 35k-lbf Turkish engine will start to materialise.
 

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Both TRMotor and TEI (majority shares) are owned by TUSAŞ so TUSAŞ is developing it is own engine. TF-X national engine project is progressing well.
Is there any chance to see a mockup in IDEF 2023?
 

uçuyorum

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Both TRMotor and TEI (majority shares) are owned by TUSAŞ so TUSAŞ is developing it is own engine. TF-X national engine project is progressing well.
But are they going so well that they will be delivered by 2028? Because it was said previously that, first few blocks will be delivered with F110, and then there is this news confirming contract for 40 F110s, and Temel Kotil saying some planes will be delivered with "local" engines as stated in contract in 2028 this week, the only way all of this is consistent is if he is referring to locally produced F110. Also remember that the model that will be delivered 2028-2029 is to be developed from the prototype that will fly in 2025 and not the current GTU-0. Even if indigenous engine is materialized by that time, it is unlikely to have started serial production and delivery. I remember the plan for that is 2031-2034, or later
 

Radonsider

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But are they going so well that they will be delivered by 2028? Because it was said previously that, first few blocks will be delivered with F110, and then there is this news confirming contract for 40 F110s, and Temel Kotil saying some planes will be delivered with "local" engines as stated in contract in 2028 this week, the only way all of this is consistent is if he is referring to locally produced F110. Also remember that the model that will be delivered 2028-2029 is to be developed from the prototype that will fly in 2025 and not the current GTU-0. Even if indigenous engine is materialized by that time, it is unlikely to have started serial production and delivery. I remember the plan for that is 2031-2034, or later
It will be delivered for testing, not for serial production. That's why around 100 engines were contracted to GE. Testing of the MMU engine will take time and the gap will be reduced with those engines bought from US
 

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It will be delivered for testing, not for serial production. That's why around 100 engines were contracted to GE. Testing of the MMU engine will take time and the gap will be reduced with those engines bought from US
Exactly,and giving a time for any fail or for any missing time frame in national engine. If new president is elected other than rte , i think we will get these engines and f-35s as well.
 

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, anyone who looks into the history of development of engines like Saturn izdeliye 30, P&W F119, Xian WS-15, IHI XF9 or older and smaller engines like GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, Snecma M88, Eurojet EJ200 (even with their impressive multi-billion dollar ASMET 14-strong simultaneous prototype testing facilities) and the problems they have encountered when trying to readjust the existing technologies for wider diameters and the resistance needed for much higher temperatures in the core and the numerous decades-long failures encountered by the companies trying to do this for the first time (as in Kaveri) or failures by companies much bigger and more experienced than TEI, TRMOTOR and KALE combined (as in WS-15, XF9 or izdeliye 30 and even M88), will see the dates pronounced by Turkish authorities about MMU's engines are outlandish and quite honestly literally unachievable. I think everyone would benefit if they were honest about the potential problems ahead and inform the public accordingly and plan for delays and failures, which in turn should result in gathering of forces of all the companies active in this area in our country (I'm aware of only TEI and Kale, and the rather mysterious entity TRMOTOR) to join forces in a joint-venture. All the dates, promises and unilateral pronouncements by TEI or TUSAŞ just shows that there's still uncertainty about these decisions and even the first steps haven't been taken. True, preliminary studies and preparations have been done (And TEI has achieved a lot of the technologies required for such an engine thanks to decades of working for GE and also having 500 engineers work for GE on GE's own projects and achieve technology transfer through this) but the actual project should start as soon as possible with the aforementioned potential joint-venture and they should take all and any help they can get from RR and GE. I don't expect to see a working prototype which meets all the requirements and doesn't demolish itself before 2035, personally. If it happens before that date, it will be a very welcome miracle which will literally shock the world.
 

Zafer

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, anyone who looks into the history of development of engines like Saturn izdeliye 30, P&W F119, Xian WS-15, IHI XF9 or older and smaller engines like GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, Snecma M88, Eurojet EJ200 (even with their impressive multi-billion dollar ASMET 14-strong simultaneous prototype testing facilities) and the problems they have encountered when trying to readjust the existing technologies for wider diameters and the resistance needed for much higher temperatures in the core and the numerous decades-long failures encountered by the companies trying to do this for the first time (as in Kaveri) or failures by companies much bigger and more experienced than TEI, TRMOTOR and KALE combined (as in WS-15, XF9 or izdeliye 30 and even M88), will see the dates pronounced by Turkish authorities about MMU's engines are outlandish and quite honestly literally unachievable. I think everyone would benefit if they were honest about the potential problems ahead and inform the public accordingly and plan for delays and failures, which in turn should result in gathering of forces of all the companies active in this area in our country (I'm aware of only TEI and Kale, and the rather mysterious entity TRMOTOR) to join forces in a joint-venture. All the dates, promises and unilateral pronouncements by TEI or TUSAŞ just shows that there's still uncertainty about these decisions and even the first steps haven't been taken. True, preliminary studies and preparations have been done (And TEI has achieved a lot of the technologies required for such an engine thanks to decades of working for GE and also having 500 engineers work for GE on GE's own projects and achieve technology transfer through this) but the actual project should start as soon as possible with the aforementioned potential joint-venture and they should take all and any help they can get from RR and GE. I don't expect to see a working prototype which meets all the requirements and doesn't demolish itself before 2035, personally. If it happens before that date, it will be a very welcome miracle which will literally shock the world.
Mr Kotil talking about historical fighter jet developments told reporters to forget about past examples and made gestures with his hand showing they and the modern world aviation industry are doing the same developments on a tiny budget and miniscule timeframes thanks to modern design software and tools. I choose to believe him rather them someone else.
 
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Afif

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I am wondering if Mr. Kotil's date won’t face any delays, why then they would order F110s for first batch of 40 TFX.
 

Radonsider

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I am wondering if Mr. Kotil's date won’t face any delays, why then they would order F110s for first batch of 40 TFX.
Because it takes time to test the engines. MMU is planned to enter serial production in 2028-2029 while by Temel Kotil MMU with national engine will be delivered for testing in 2028.
 

Afif

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Because it takes time to test the engines.
I know.
MMU is planned to enter serial production in 2028-2029 while by Temel Kotil MMU with national engine will be delivered for testing in 2028.
There was a road map previously published showing full scale mass production would start in 2034. I guess these F110 would be for limited serial production then.
 

Sanchez

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These news regarding new F110s from TEI and structural reinforcing of F-16s makes me think behind closed doors, we agreed with US on some stuff.

TEI wouldn't be able to produce new F110s without GE approval/support and more than likely, the newly announced F-16 B40/50 structural reinforcing includes getting SLEP kits from LM to modernize them in house at TAI.

As per TF-X, If we really got the go ahead from US for the 40 F110s to be used on MMU, that number covers all the prototypes, as well as the early production aircraft. This is pretty good news.
 

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I am wondering if Mr. Kotil's date won’t face any delays, why then they would order F110s for first batch of 40 TFX.

Some of TfX that will be delivered in 2028 will fly with domestic engines. In fact, option of performing flight test packages with 1x F110 and 1x domestic engine on same TFX is also being evaluated. Likely 2-3 years of optimization and modification work, maybe more depend on performance of national engine, is envisaged. During this period, serially produced TFX's powered with domestic engines will be delivered with Block-30 version in 2030's. In the meantime, production will continue with F110 engines and there will be an uninterrupted transition to domestic engines. Btw, TEI was also negotiating to produce F110 engines to be used on TFX (around %50 of whole F110). That's the reason 40 TFX will be produced with F110 engines.
 

Radonsider

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I know.

There was a road map previously published showing full scale mass production would start in 2034. I guess these F110 would be for limited serial production then.
Depends on what you consider as LRIP
 

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Mr Kotil talking about historical fighter jet developments told reporters to forget about past examples and made gestures with his hand showing they are doing the same developments on a tiny budget and miniscule timeframes. I chose to believe him rather them someone else.

"Radar Cross Section Test facility will be opened in 2021" - date: december 2019


"Radar Cross Section Test facility will be opened in the second quarter of 2024" - date: february 2023

I love Temel Kotil, but as any other manager he can be prone to overpromising. The hurdles are real and countries as diverse as Russia, China, Japan, India and France have been wrestling with them for decades, as they are doing now. So these are not some old problems, as someone else alluded to, which can now be bypassed by 3d printing and digital twins and Dassault and Siemens CADs (things Temel Kotil is referring to when he talks about how they accelerated the MMU design, and which I point out to show how they don't apply here). The metallurgic hurdles are contemporary and Japan, Russia and India are grappling with them currently. China seems to have passed them, at least they claim they have but it took them two decades. The past two decades, not decades 50 years ago.
 

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