TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Bogeyman 

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Created a real political crisis out of those marbles. This has been brewing for years. British point on this is clear, they don't let go of anything. Greeks are right on this. Parthenon marbles should return. This is actually one of few venues where Turkey and Greece both see eye to eye. Brits have many, many historical artifacts in British Museum that should return to their homes.


Has it? Export control relaxations are not directly a sign of a deal. I think it's fair to say that it is still very much in progress. In the past, IP issues and third party countries being part of the program stopped the RR Kale partnership. Hope they are solved, but can't say they are indeed solved just yet.
The RR partnership was about exporting the engine to third countries. If we are not going to export, I do not think there is a problem at the first stage. We do not yet have a guaranteed background even to add it to the Turkish Air Force inventory. Let's ensure ourselves first. We'll think about it later. In the worst-case scenario, other partners wait for the national engine.
 

Spitfire9

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Export control relaxations are not directly a sign of a deal. I think it's fair to say that it is still very much in progress. In the past, IP issues and third party countries being part of the program stopped the RR Kale partnership. Hope they are solved, but can't say they are indeed solved just yet.
RR has a lot of knowledge but I think that the military R&D they do is funded by various governments. Can RR use the knowledge so gained in other projects? I don't know but they could certainly bring immense experience in design and development to a 35,000 lb thrust fast jet engine project. After all they worked with GE on the 'back up' F136 engine for the F-35 and in the Advent adaptive cycle research project. They also lead engine design for the GCAP although the nature of the engine they are designing is not knowledge in the public domain.

If RR were to get involved alongside Kale, would it be for an entirely new engine design or an engine based on a Kale design? I presume RR involvement would spell the end of any thoughts of developing an engine based on the TF6000 engine.

Has this sudden interest in RR in this thread been prompted by the cancellation of the Greek PM's meeting with the UK PM?
 

Sanchez

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The RR partnership was about exporting the engine to third countries. If we are not going to export, I do not think there is a problem at the first stage. We do not yet have a guaranteed background even to add it to the Turkish Air Force inventory. Let's ensure ourselves first. We'll think about it later. In the worst-case scenario, other partners wait for the national engine.
Totally. For one, let's not talk tout selling Kaan to Pakistan before the damn thing is even flying.
If RR were to get involved alongside Kale, would it be for an entirely new engine design or an engine based on a Kale design? I presume RR involvement would spell the end of any thoughts of developing an engine based on the TF6000 engine.
None of this is yet really clear tbh. No matter what is the outcome, TEI will be a big part of the development of the engine. Whether it's by itself or via TRMotor with Kale, which TEI now owns 100%, unlike how it started with Qatari shared BMC. If this works, it'll be probably be a wholly joint venture between RR, PW(via Kale), TEI and Kale and we'd like those IP rights please.

Has this sudden interest in RR in this thread been prompted by the cancellation of the Greek PM's meeting with the UK PM?
Not really. Possible RR involvement in the engine goes as far back as 2017, still no agreements are made. It is also possible that both Turks and Greeks are reading too much into Sunak's cancellation. Doesn't have to mean anything vis a vis UK TR relations. Marbles issue have been a big topic of contention for decades. Mitsotakis was set to meet Sunak today until he called the marbles stolen on BBC and Labour leader supported giving them back. I think this is more about internal UK politics than anything else.
 

Yasar_TR

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@Spitfire9 , Correct!
RR-GE were funded, with today’s money, around 4 billion dollars by US government to develop F-136 engine. A further 4 billion was needed to complete the project when it was put on the shelf.
They needed RR input to develop an engine that can be used in a vertical take-off and landing aircraft. (BAE Systems were used in developing the F35B’s VSTOL capable engine.)

The EJ200 engine originally designed by RR, is capable to power a Hurjet. Its dimensions are not far off to be suitable either. But as EJ200 was built as a twin engine power plant, RR or Eurojet needs to alter it so that it can be used in solitary mode.

RR’s expertise in developing turbofans can not be denied. The Pegasus power plant that was used in Harriers, in their latest form, developed 23800lbf dry thrust. Their use of modern engine development practices have yielded complete demonstrator engines in under 18 months from scratch. In partnership with GE they have developed the state of the art f136 engine that contained Blisk, CMC, additive technologies and under ADVENT design program an adaptive cycle system was considered.

RR/Kale partnership can be very fruitful, especially if they can utilise TEI production facilities as well. But as mentioned by @Bogeyman we are only contemplating about what can be. It is best to wait and see what this UK/Turkiye partnership will develop in to.
 

dBSPL

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Created a real political crisis out of those marbles. This has been brewing for years. British point on this is clear, they don't let go of anything. Greeks are right on this. Parthenon marbles should return. This is actually one of few venues where Turkey and Greece both see eye to eye. Brits have many, many historical artifacts in British Museum that should return to their homes.


Has it? Export control relaxations are not directly a sign of a deal. I think it's fair to say that it is still very much in progress. In the past, IP issues and third party countries being part of the program stopped the RR Kale partnership. Hope they are solved, but can't say they are indeed solved just yet.
Turkiye should apply for the return of these artifacts with an official letter. These artifacts were smuggled during the Ottoman period. The act of smuggling was against the Ottoman state and Turkiye is the legal owner of the Ottoman financial debts to the UK and therefore the legal successor of the state under the Treaty of Lausanne, for Brits also. The Ottoman Empire is the successor of both Eastern Rome and the Seljuk civilization. When this empire collapsed, the entire burden was left on the Turkish republic. btw, If the British give us these artifacts, the government in Greece may even fall. lol
 

Spitfire9

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Out of curiosity, since Turkiye wants to produce fast jet aircraft with total sovereignty, when will it be producing indigenous ejection seats?
 

Yasar_TR

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Out of curiosity, since Turkiye wants to produce fast jet aircraft with total sovereignty, when will it be producing indigenous ejection seats?
The question of locally manufactured ejection seat is not if but when as you have put it. Turkey has already signed a contract for local development of an ejection seat.

This is a very high tech piece of engineering accomplishment. There are only 3 to 4 manufacturers (like Martin Baker UK, Martin Baker US and Russian Zvezda) that successfully and prolifically produce these seats.


Turkey has started the ball rolling for the indigenous manufacturing of these seats. But “when” is a good question. As long as UK doesn’t use it’s veto on Turkish exports, that “when“ can be a long winded date. But having seen S Korean sale to Argentina blocked, may necessitate a shorter “when”.

 

dBSPL

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The new generation of ejection seat systems is one of the most extreme electromechanical systems in the world. Their design, operating procedures and the fact that this top-end engineering can be reliably used again and again under the most extreme conditions is a marvel of engineering. There is nothing that a country that has successfully passed these stages cannot overcome in terms of engineering, other than a matter of resource planning and politic will.

 

Spitfire9

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The question of locally manufactured ejection seat is not if but when as you have put it. Turkey has already signed a contract for local development of an ejection seat.

This is a very high tech piece of engineering accomplishment. There are only 3 to 4 manufacturers (like Martin Baker UK, Martin Baker US and Russian Zvezda) that successfully and prolifically produce these seats.


Turkey has started the ball rolling for the indigenous manufacturing of these seats. But “when” is a good question. As long as UK doesn’t use it’s veto on Turkish exports, that “when“ can be a long winded date. But having seen S Korean sale to Argentina blocked, may necessitate a shorter “when”.

Argentina is an exceptional case for the Brits. UK was not interested in what I will describe geographically as the South Atlantic Islands. Had the inhabitants chosen to be independent or become part of Argentina the UK would have been pleased to give its assent. In 2013 the inhabitants were polled as to what political status they preferred. In a turnout of 92% of the electorate over 99% voted for retaining the current position. There were 3 votes against. That is the reason we block supply of any military components of UK origin to Argentina. It menaces the 'self determination' of the people of those islands.

There was some wisdom in blocking KF-21 and Tejas on a number of counts, given that newly elected Milei in Argentina is menacing the South Atlantic Islands again. UK may also be busy with Maduro in Venezuela menacing to invade neighbouring country Guyana. Fortunately Venezuela does not have any Typhoons.

Like other countries, UK may refuse to supply military equipment to countries due to their policies or behaviour.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Our beast !

20231204_211633.jpg
 

Strong AI

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Yeah was going to say this now. First time seeing it but it's from July. Shared by ITPS and flew under the radar probably.
View attachment 58991

View attachment 58992

View attachment 58993

Georgio Clementi: "A historic day at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). The first day of the first ever test pilot and flight test engineer course to be held in Türkiye. Twelve students from TAI, the Turkish Air Force, Directorate General Civil Aviation and ASELSAN commenced their journey to a career flight testing fixed wing civil and military aircraft, such as the Hurkus, Hurjet and TF-X National Fighter in the background. Turkish Flight Test Instructors Murat Ozpala and Emre Can Kaya joined the ITPS instructor team setting yet another first for this initiative. The course marks the launch of ITPS Türkiye, the satellite training organization of the International Test Pilots School (ITPS) under a partnership agreement with TAI. TAI is Türkiye's national aircraft manufacturer boasting a growing product line of advanced fixed and rotary wing aircraft. ITPS is the world's biggest independent school of flight testing, now operating two campuses, in Canada and Turkey."
 

DBdev

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Instead of designing it optionally manned i would rather go for an unmanned version by removing the cockpit and life support systems.
AI is not ready to outsmart human pilots. When it is ready it would be smart enough to target all humanity in order to not be replaced by a newer model. Satellites and ground based com. relays are easy targets. Betting everything on them would cause a catastrophic defeat. Manned stealth fighters will be here with NGAD, GCAP and even long after that. Besides our poor pilots deserve a nice ride like KAAN considering Greek pilots are getting all these shiny F-35s.
 

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