TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[boredaf]

If we can achieve 250 KAAN and develop a proper loyal wingman later which incoperates artificial intelligence, then there is no need for +400 manned aircrafts.

While I don't believe we are going to achieve completely unmanned military any time soon (or anyone for that matter) I do believe the future is going to be few manned platforms (whether it is on the ground, in the air or on/under water) commanding unmanned systems that are capable of executing those commands themselves in given parameters, instead of someone directly controlling that.

We are already dipping our toes in this as well. STM's Kargu (I know some don't like it but) has the option to do just that, attacking a target by itself after confirmation from controller. Their joint project with Roketsan, Alpagut will have this capability as well, if it ever comes out into the light. Not to mention fly-by-wire systems we have been using for a long time, and incorporating in Hürjet and Kaan as well; put those two together and we kinda have the software basis for a loyal wingman.

 

[Sanchez]

Kaan P1 will fly in 2025.

“Following the maiden flight, progress on the P1 prototype is once again advancing with a sense of unity and sol-idarity, fueling our growing excitement. All teams are currently focused on the new prototype, scheduled to make its maiden flight in 2025 and to be included in the inventory of the Turkish Air Force Command by 2028. Alongside necessary preparations for the first flight, the production process of the P1 prototype is proceeding according to schedule. The new KAAN prototype, despite its challenging timeline, will be transferred to the hangar in 2024, placed on the landing gear the following year, and then take its inaugural flight.
Our company is set to produce a total of 29 KAAN prototypes, in addition to the aircraft scheduled for delivery to the Air Force Command by 2028. There are plans to simultaneously assemble two aircraft in the hangar. Additionally, our company is actively engaged in developing sixth-generation aircraft, which are still in the conceptual stage globally.”

https://www.tusas.com/medya-merkezi/Dergi?s=1&d=2024#3798

 

[Rodeo]

Ceitical Design Review(CDR) of the Block-0 will be held in Q2 of this year and the CDR of Block-10 aircraft will be held in Q3, this year.

Edit: I assumed the CDR in Q2 is for the Block-0. The language that was used is a bit ambiguous for me.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1786344280711164062

 

[TR_123456]

Our best bet would be to have at least 200 to 250 4+ generation fighters to complement the 100 or so Stealthy KAANs

Yes,200 KAAN 4,5 gen and 100 KAAN 5th gen should be possible no?
Until the engine is ready for production(2030?),all KAAN's will be 4,5 gen,so why the need for other 4+ gen's?

 

[Quasar]

I dont realy think thank the price tag and operational cost of a 4,5 gen KAAN and 5 gen KAAN will be unthinkably different.... may be but just may be Having more 4,5 gen KAAN than 5 gen KAAN is not the best way to save money???

 

[Saithan]

Kardesim..... I mentioned 800 in all including Hürjet, F16, KE, UCAV etc. and people said I was of my rockers...

People have started daydreaming again, are frustrations running high ?

So all of a sudden 4-4.5th gen are still attractive, but doesn't that indicate that we're desperate. These rational thoughts should have been on the table long ago.

And like Kartal pointed out we've been screwing around and trashing foreign policy quite badly, and frankly we're advancing slowly, too slowly. I wish Hürjet was flying and armed and TuAF had ordered 80+ already....

Guess we'll have to be patient and wait and see.

 

[TR_123456]

I dont realy think thank the price tag and operational cost of a 4,5 gen KAAN and 5 gen KAAN will be unthinkably different.... may be but just may be Having more 4,5 gen KAAN than 5 gen KAAN is not the best way to save money???

So,what do you suggest instead of the KAAN 4.5?

 

[Zafer]

Kaan will be 5.5 gen so we will not have any 5 gen planes ever

 

[Quasar]

So,what do you suggest instead of the KAAN 4.5?

I Think we should have more 5 gen KAAN than 4,5 KAAN bro in the long run This is whats gonna happen anyway

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yes,200 KAAN 4,5 gen and 100 KAAN 5th gen should be possible no?
Until the engine is ready for production(2030?),all KAAN's will be 4,5 gen,so why the need for other 4+ gen's?

Prior to our expulsion from F35 program, the idea was to have around 100 F35s in place of F4s, and the TFX were to replace the 240 or so aging F16 jets. Thus giving Turkish armed forces over 350 combatant jets.

Irrespective of the timescales given, the total combatant count for the Turkish Airforce seems to be assessed such that it should consist of 350 to 400 modern jets to be able to be a deterrent and deal with the potential threat levels around us. This is a fine calculation that needs to take in to account the financial constraints as well as threat levels, finding an acceptable balance.

Without the indigenous engine the KAAN is going to be a fairly stealthy 4+ (4.5 or 4+) generation fighter jet. Here I am taking the definition of 4++ plane being totally stealthy but a notch below 5th generation planes.
In other words assuming that 4.5/4+ generation has limited stealth.
Then again, with all the high tech we have put in to this plane the initial batch can be 4++ generation. We will know when it is ready.

The KAAN, could not be ready in numbers before 2030. Worst case this may even be extended to 2035. That would leave Turkish airforce exposed and at a disadvantage. If we can make up the numbers with KAAN 4+ generation planes, that is great. If not, then we would need 2 to 3 squadrons of 4+ generation aircrafts to bridge the missing numbers.

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

 

[uçuyorum]

Prior to our expulsion from F35 program, the idea was to have around 100 F35s in place of F4s, and the TFX were to replace the 240 or so aging F16 jets. Thus giving Turkish armed forces over 350 combatant jets.

Irrespective of the timescales given, the total combatant count for the Turkish Airforce seems to be assessed such that it should consist of 350 to 400 modern jets to be able to be a deterrent and deal with the potential threat levels around us. This is a fine calculation that needs to take in to account the financial constraints as well as threat levels, finding an acceptable balance.

Without the indigenous engine the KAAN is going to be a fairly stealthy 4+ (4.5 or 4+) generation fighter jet. Here I am taking the definition of 4++ plane being totally stealthy but a notch below 5th generation planes.
In other words assuming that 4.5/4+ generation has limited stealth.
Then again, with all the high tech we have put in to this plane the initial batch can be 4++ generation. We will know when it is ready.

The KAAN, could not be ready in numbers before 2030. Worst case this may even be extended to 2035. That would leave Turkish airforce exposed and at a disadvantage. If we can make up the numbers with KAAN 4+ generation planes, that is great. If not, then we would need 2 to 3 squadrons of 4+ generation aircrafts to bridge the missing numbers.

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

Those calculations are too old and both KAAN and F35 would end up being way more expensive and difficult to operate than imagined.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Those calculations are too old and both KAAN and F35 would end up being way more expensive and difficult to operate than imagined.

These calculations are old if you think July 2019 is too old!
That is the time we were kicked out from F35 program.
Until we were kicked out, we were in the process of ordering F35 planes.
We had not changed our commitment quantities of 100 planes until that date. In fact we were contemplating for further quantities of F35Bs.
When we were kicked out the plane’s cost to consortium members had gone down to 78 million dollars from 89 million.
In 2019 Turkey’s GDP was 720billion dollars. Today it is estimated around 1.2 trillion dollars. So those numbers are more doable today .

 

[TR_123456]

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

Ok but by the time Germany agrees on any deal we will be a decade further before we get the first EF.
Would it still make sense to go for the EF?

 

[uçuyorum]

These calculations are old if you think July 2019 is too old!
That is the time we were kicked out from F35 program.
Until we were kicked out, we were in the process of ordering F35 planes.
We had not changed our commitment quantities of 100 planes until that date. In fact we were contemplating for further quantities of F35Bs.
When we were kicked out the plane’s cost to consortium members had gone down to 78 million dollars from 89 million.
In 2019 Turkey’s GDP was 720billion dollars. Today it is estimated around 1.2 trillion dollars. So those numbers are more doable today .

Think like this, fuel cost of 250 KAAN alone is 2 times that of 250 F16

 

[Saithan]

People if you are so impatient I could always make a solid deposit to Ziraat bankasi and that ought to fix the problem. Hopefully some among you knows what it means

 

[Yasar_TR]

Think like this, fuel cost of 250 KAAN alone is 2 times that of 250 F16

Let us think that KAAN of today is similar in engine power to F15EX.
F15EX in combat configuration at cruising altitude burns around 1800 Gallons of fuel.
An F16, in same configuration will use around 700gallons of fuel.
But if you start using afterburners and perform difficult manoeuvres, then you cold easily hit 2100gallons an hour for an F16 too.
Fuel cost is combat and specific case dependent. There are maintenance and parts costs that are important playing factors too.
F15EX’s hourly cost is estimated at around 29000 dollars. That is about the same as an F16 Falcon.

But KAAN should be costlier to maintain. Its RAM paint replenishment and when fitted with TF35K engines’ fuel consumption will be higher. Therefore hourly cost should place it in a higher position.

We have a saying in Turkish;
If you are to enter a Turkish Bath, you must be prepared to sweat.

These are state of the art planes we are building. They are not going to be cheap.
At the same time, we are not going to use them to bomb few terrorists in the East, day in day out. For that we have fleets of UCAVs like KE, Akinci Anka-3 etc.

 

[uçuyorum]

Let us think that KAAN of today is similar in engine power to F15EX.
F15EX in combat configuration at cruising altitude burns around 1800 Gallons of fuel.
An F16, in same configuration will use around 700gallons of fuel.
But if you start using afterburners and perform difficult manoeuvres, then you cold easily hit 2100gallons an hour for an F16 too.
Fuel cost is combat and specific case dependent. There are maintenance and parts costs that are important playing factors too.
F15EX’s hourly cost is estimated at around 29000 dollars. That is about the same as an F16 Falcon.

But KAAN should be costlier to maintain. Its RAM paint replenishment and when fitted with TF35K engines’ fuel consumption will be higher. Therefore hourly cost should place it in a higher position.

We have a saying in Turkish;
If you are to enter a Turkish Bath, you must be prepared to sweat.

These are state of the art planes we are building. They are not going to be cheap.
At the same time, we are not going to use them to bomb few terrorists in the East, day in day out. For that we have fleets of UCAVs like KE, Akinci Anka-3 etc.

Well yes but if you build 250 of them you still have to maintain them and hit certain flight hours for every pilot annually. About 200 is good and I think we were down do 150 hours few years back.

 

[Huelague]

The final version of Kaan was always introduced as a 5+ gen fighter jet. From the official side.

 

[what]

Even if most of the money stays within the economy, the money still has to come from somewhere.

Either the first versions of KAAN will be cheaper (don't expect it to be) as Yasar mentioned or my bet is we will go for a high-low set up with Hürjets in the mix. I dont see how we can afford it, but maybe I'm pessimistic.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ok but by the time Germany agrees on any deal we will be a decade further before we get the first EF.
Would it still make sense to go for the EF?

Yes! There ls that too.
If UK and our “diplomats” can get Germany to give the go ahead for the sale within this year, then it would be a viable purchase. Otherwise, if it is dragged out too long, as you have rightly pointed out, it is not going to make much of a difference.