TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

Let us look at recent purchases of non partner countries’ f35 orders regarding how much it really costs to buy these planes that are 78million dollar a piece on paper, after inflation corrected to date :

Finland (2022)
64 planes 9.6 billion dollars : 160 million dollar a piece.
Poland (2020)
32 planes 4.6 billion dollars : 174 million dollar a piece.
Switzerland ((2022)
35 planes 6 billion dollars : 183 million dollar a piece
South Korea (2023)
25 planes 5.06 billion dollars : 208 million dollars a piece
Germany (2022)
35 planes for 10.9 billion dollars : 332 million dollars a piece
( German purchase included extensive missiles and weapons)

Even a partner country like Netherlands had to pay 1.1 billion dollars for additional 9 planes in 2019. That is 150 million a piece after inflation correction. They had calculated in 2007 that with the upkeep and maintenance costs, the bare plane was going to cost them 215 million a piece. That is 315 million dollars a piece with today’s dollar.

These stealth planes are not cheap to buy and keep. Our KAAN will not be an exception. On top of it they do not carry a lot of missiles and weapons. Their internal compartments have limited space. Not every missile or weapon will fit. So you are not utilising the full power potential of your engines and plane.
In “beast mode” they can carry plenty of weapons but then they are not stealthy and any different than your run of the mill 4th to 4.5 generation plane.
A plane like Eurofighter that is stealthy enough but not as stealthy as a F35 is actually a more practical way to go and may prove to be more useful plane under general battle conditions.
Use of stealth planes is here to stay. We need them. But they have to be complemented with good Rafale and Eurofighter type fighters.
So 100-150 KAANs are good for TuAF. But we need more capable 4.5 gen fighters. Even if it means downgrading KAAN to 4.5 gen level to make it more affordable..

 

[Spitfire9]

Exactly. Even 100 Kaan’s would be very expensive to acquire and maintain. Let alone ‘’300’’ or ‘’1000’’. 5th generation fighters are not designed to be produced as much as 4th generation fighters.

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

 

[Afif]

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

F-35's CPFH has crossed $40000 long time ago. KAAN is a twin engine heavy fighter. It Won't be less than $40000 even if we consider TUSAS will be able to do everything for cheaper. For total 8000 flight hours lifespan, it would cost $320 millions per KAAN over 30 years. Add to that flyaway cost of $120 millions each.

 

[uçuyorum]

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

Afaik 80 million figure for F35 is not inflation adjusted and is usd value for more than a decade ago

 

[Aqerdf]

Afaik 80 million figure for F35 is not inflation adjusted and is usd value for more than a decade ago

And without engine cost.

 

[Chocopie]

Let us look at recent purchases of non partner countries’ f35 orders regarding how much it really costs to buy these planes that are 78million dollar a piece on paper, after inflation corrected to date :

Finland (2022)
64 planes 9.6 billion dollars : 160 million dollar a piece.
Poland (2020)
32 planes 4.6 billion dollars : 174 million dollar a piece.
Switzerland ((2022)
35 planes 6 billion dollars : 183 million dollar a piece
South Korea (2023)
25 planes 5.06 billion dollars : 208 million dollars a piece
Germany (2022)
35 planes for 10.9 billion dollars : 332 million dollars a piece
( German purchase included extensive missiles and weapons)

Even a partner country like Netherlands had to pay 1.1 billion dollars for additional 9 planes in 2019. That is 150 million a piece after inflation correction. They had calculated in 2007 that with the upkeep and maintenance costs, the bare plane was going to cost them 215 million a piece. That is 315 million dollars a piece with today’s dollar.

These stealth planes are not cheap to buy and keep. Our KAAN will not be an exception. On top of it they do not carry a lot of missiles and weapons. Their internal compartments have limited space. Not every missile or weapon will fit. So you are not utilising the full power potential of your engines and plane.
In “beast mode” they can carry plenty of weapons but then they are not stealthy and any different than your run of the mill 4th to 4.5 generation plane.
A plane like Eurofighter that is stealthy enough but not as stealthy as a F35 is actually a more practical way to go and may prove to be more useful plane under general battle conditions.
Use of stealth planes is here to stay. We need them. But they have to be complemented with good Rafale and Eurofighter type fighters.
So 100-150 KAANs are good for TuAF. But we need more capable 4.5 gen fighters. Even if it means downgrading KAAN to 4.5 gen level to make it more affordable..

Your numbers for Korea aren‘t correct. ROK ordered additional 20 F-35A (Dec. 2023) in latest block for $3.1 billion. But that deal also included costs for building a domestic maintenance, repair & overhaul depot.

So, way under $150 million a piece

South Korea To Establish F-35 Maintenance Depot By 2027 | Aviation Week Network

South Korea is working to establish its own F-35 MRO depot at Cheongju AB by 2027.

aviationweek.com

That being said, until a fighter jet is fully developed, tested, mass produced and operated no outsider will know the real costs.
KF-21‘s unit price was estimated at $ 65 mil. but now first 20x Block I will cost per piece:

- $70 mil. per airframe & sub-systems (KAI)
- $20 mil. for 2x licensed-built F-414k engines (GE/Hanwha)
- $2 mil. for GaN AESA radar (Hanwha)

est. $92 mil. per unit for KF-21 Block I

Keep it mind, that all production deals also included partially development costs for the different systems, so the prices for later blocks will be much lower.

 

[Spitfire9]

And without engine cost.

Afaik 80 million figure for F35 is not inflation adjusted and is usd value for more than a decade ago

So, if want to buy an F-35A with an engine in it to replace one I've lost in an accident, what figure do I write on the cheque I write to LM?

 

[Aqerdf]

Possibly near 150M i think.

What i meant was that 70/80M figure was a promise from JPO to US congress. That promise was specifically mentioning this figure like "yes, but without engine".

When adding also inflation, today's number is getting mid 100 M afaik.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Your numbers for Korea aren‘t correct. ROK ordered additional 20 F-35A (Dec. 2023) in latest block for $3.1 billion. But that deal also included costs for building a domestic maintenance, repair & overhaul depot.

So, way under $150 million a piece

South Korea To Establish F-35 Maintenance Depot By 2027 | Aviation Week Network

South Korea is working to establish its own F-35 MRO depot at Cheongju AB by 2027.

aviationweek.com

That being said, until a fighter jet is fully developed, tested, mass produced and operated no outsider will know the real costs.
KF-21‘s unit price was estimated at $ 65 mil. but now first 20x Block I will cost per piece:

- $70 mil. per airframe & sub-systems (KAI)
- $20 mil. for 2x licensed-built F-414k engines (GE/Hanwha)
- $2 mil. for GaN AESA radar (Hanwha)

est. $92 mil. per unit for KF-21 Block I

Keep it mind, that all production deals also included partially development costs for the different systems, so the prices for later blocks will be much lower.

This is the site I got it from. It says 2.9 billion for 25 planes. But with ancillaries it came to 5.06 billion dollars

South Korea inks $2.9B fighter purchase with US

South Korea agreed this month to purchase 20 additional F-35A Lightning II fighter jets to respond to “power imbalances” stemming from North Korea’s nuclear and missile threats, according to a news release Wednesday from the Ministry of National Defense procurement agency.

www.stripes.com

quote:
The U.S. State Department on Sept. 13 approved the sale of up to 25 F-35As and related equipment to South Korea for around $5.06 billion, according to a news release from the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

unquote.

Jane’s defence concurs.

South Korea signs agreement for additional F-35s

South Korea has signed a letter of acceptance (LOA) to acquire additional Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

www.janes.com

Here is the official US gov. FMS sale doc.

Korea – F-35 Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[Spitfire9]

Possibly near 150M i think.

What i meant was that 70/80M figure was a promise from JPO to US congress. That promise was specifically mentioning this figure like "yes, but without engine".

When adding also inflation, today's number is getting mid 100 M afaik.

If you mean around $150million for a flyaway F-35A, KAAN's flyaway price looks to be a lot lower. Of course, price is just one thing. Capability is another. Operating cost is another.

Providing that KAAN has a lot more capability than the 4G fighters countries need to replace in the 2030's, why would they buy more 4G fighters if they could afford KAAN's operating costs?

On another tack, I hear that the GE F110 is quite an expensive engine. Forgetting design and development costs, if 200 or 300 TF35K were ordered, could the unit production cost be less than F110?

 

[Yasar_TR]

On another tack, I hear that the GE F110 is quite an expensive engine. Forgetting design and development costs, if 200 or 300 TF35K were ordered, could the unit production cost be less than F110?

If we can sell half the planes we produce to foreign customers, those engines will almost be free!
Our foreign currency will stay at home.
It will create work for Turkish technicians.
We will generate foreign currency income..
It will be win win win situation.

It costs RR, P&W and GE billions of dollars to develop engines.
Initial development of F136 cost RR and GE, with 2004 dollar 2.4 billion (that is 4 billion with today’s dollar). To finalise development in 2011 they needed a further 2.9 billion dollars (That is 4.06 billion with today’s dollar).
So development cost alone was 8.06 billion Dollars.

F135 produced by P&W has run through a similar budget. So these engines are not cheap to develop. Last year DOD has placed an order for f135 engines worth 5.2 billion for 278 engines with an option for further 240 engines bringing the amount to around 8 billion dollar mark.
that is about 19 million dollars a piece for first 278 engines. But if the option quantity is ordered the amount payable comes down to 15.5 million a piece.

DoD Orders Over 500 F135 Engines in $8B Deal

Pratt & Whitney is under contract now to supply afterburning turbofan jet engines for the next three rounds of F-35 stealth fighter production.

www.americanmachinist.com

P&W was recently awarded a 6.7 billion dollars contract to supply spare engines for the 184 F22 planes. If it is for 368 engines then it comes down to 18.5 million dollars a piece.

Pratt & Whitney awarded $6.7 billion contract for F-22 engine sustainment

Pratt & Whitney has been awarded a $6.7 billion contract for engine sustainment for the F-22 Raptor advanced stealth fighter until 2025

www.thedefensepost.com

In 2021 an order of 329 x F110 engines for 148 F15EX planes were placed by US Airforce for an amount of 1.6 billion dollars. That is 5.5 million dollars a piece with today’s dollar. But that is for US Airforce. In 2002 Oman had paid nearly 7 million dollars an engine, with today’s money.
As TEI can produce these engines in house and we buy them through FMS system, the cost for us will be substantially lower than the cost to other countries.

GE will provide all F-15EX engines under $1.6B contract

The final delivery of GE's F110 engines would occur in 2031, and the engine deliveries would help produce 136 F-15EXs.

www.defensenews.com

Going back to cost of TF35K; logic dictates that for 500+ engine run the cost should be less than or no more than 15 million a piece.

 

[Chocopie]

This is the site I got it from. It says 2.9 billion for 25 planes. But with ancillaries it came to 5.06 billion dollars

South Korea inks $2.9B fighter purchase with US

South Korea agreed this month to purchase 20 additional F-35A Lightning II fighter jets to respond to “power imbalances” stemming from North Korea’s nuclear and missile threats, according to a news release Wednesday from the Ministry of National Defense procurement agency.

www.stripes.com

quote:
The U.S. State Department on Sept. 13 approved the sale of up to 25 F-35As and related equipment to South Korea for around $5.06 billion, according to a news release from the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

unquote.

Jane’s defence concurs.

South Korea signs agreement for additional F-35s

South Korea has signed a letter of acceptance (LOA) to acquire additional Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

www.janes.com

Here is the official US gov. FMS sale doc.

Korea – F-35 Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

A FMS notification isn‘t an inked deal but an requested approval for a potential number of military items: SK asked for up to 25x F-35A plus related equipment (spare parts, ammo etc.) with estimated worth of up to $5.06 billion which was approved in Sept. 2023.

The real inked deal from end of Dec. 2023 was 20x F-35A without ammunition plus MRO depot buildup in Korea for $3.1 billion:

In December last year, Seoul ordered 20 more of the fighters for 4.26 trillion won ($3.1 billion). That deal includes the cost of constructing the maintenance depots, according to the SBS report.

Source:

South Korea To Establish F-35 Maintenance Depot By 2027 | Aviation Week Network

South Korea is working to establish its own F-35 MRO depot at Cheongju AB by 2027.

aviationweek.com

 

[Zafer]

TUSAŞ is state owned, take out salaries and materials costs every dime that goes into buying KAAN goes to the government.

 

[TheInsider]

The initial Turkish plan was to acquire an immediate 100 F-35 and 140+ Kaan in the long term (hi-lo mix). F-35 deal fell through and now 100 Kaan is an immediate requirement that is why TAI is trying to deliver the first Kaan in late 2028.

 

[Samba]

The initial Turkish plan was to acquire an immediate 100 F-35 and 140+ Kaan in the long term (hi-lo mix). F-35 deal fell through and now 100 Kaan is an immediate requirement that is why TAI is trying to deliver the first Kaan in late 2028.

What do you think of recent news? Biden promised! to solve f35 issue in 3-4 week time!?!?

 

[uçuyorum]

What do you think of recent news? Biden promised! to solve f35 issue in 3-4 week time!?!?

Source? But initially we were getting 100 F35 for free ( or even negative price ). Now we will probably have to pay huge amounts and taking a huge risk so...

 

[Samba]

Source? But initially we were getting 100 F35 for free ( or even negative price ). Now we will probably have to pay huge amounts and taking a huge risk so...

Düzeltme: Türkiye, 40 adet F-16 satın alımını geri çekiyor, F-35 için süreç başlıyor

Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan, ABD'deki NATO Devlet ve Hükümet Başkanları Zirvesi'ne katıldı. Erdoğan, Biden ile görüştüğünü ve F-35'ler için yeni dönemin başladığını duyurdu.

www.donanimhaber.com

 

[TheInsider]

What do you think of recent news? Biden promised! to solve f35 issue in 3-4 week time!?!?

It doesn't matter we won't get any F-35 apart from the F-35s waiting in the hangar before 2028-2029. I don't think Biden can do anything about F-35. It will be Trump's decision and I think Trump will use it as leverage.

I don't think we should buy more than 40 F-35As. Instead of 40 new F-16Vs, 40 F-35As will be a very good deal. We should push for F-35Bs for TCG Anadolu. We can also get delivery of our stored F-35s immediately and use them for training. We should use those 40 F-35s for NATO missions while keeping Kaan for ourselves and not use it abroad.

 

[uçuyorum]

It doesn't matter we won't get any F-35 apart from the F-35s waiting in the hangar before 2028-2029. I don't think Biden can do anything about F-35.

I read a version that says he will handle the matter of money paid for F35s

 

[neosinan]

Here is great interview with ex fighter pilot and advisor at Saab from Millennium 7. He talks in detail about Sensor fusion, stealth and Modern A2A in general. (PS: title of video is clickbait.)