TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

I dont get why ACE is required for 6th gen... It is just a way to achieve better fuel economy/performance. not every country needs it

You need to decrease thermal image of the engine. ACE has three stream airflow system. The third stream is primarily there to serve as a thermal management heat sink.
This engine will give better range, speed and acceleration with a lot of dry thrust that is nearing 30K lbf level. That is more than a f110 on continuous afterburner mode. To use high power Directed Energy Weapons and long range Aesa radars the plane needs to be able to generate ample amounts of power. Whilst doing that it needs to be able to sustain it’s thrust delivery without hindrance.

You need equal amount of thrust when you are at sea level and at 60000ft without straining the engine. A turbojet will suffer at sea level. Also a Turbofan will be straining at 60000ft. This engine behaves like a high bypass turbofan at sea level and behaves more like a turbojet at 60000ft whilst smoothly transitioning from one to the other without compromising stealth characteristics. During this process all turbulence and heavy shuddering of engine and plane that can happen in certain cases, is eliminated. The so called “harmonic resonance,” has been an unwanted occurrence with the F135 even causing a F35B to crash.

 

[KAAN]

More thermal efficiency=more available electric=next generation radar/EW, DEW (directed energy weapon: high power laser, electromagnetic pulse, high-power microwave).

Even BÜRFİS alone will consume more than 100 kW of power (speculative), 122x2kW on paper and 116x2kW maximum power can be achieved in the test. Of course, even without ACE, the thermal performance of the 5th generation engine will improve this, but if they go for it, they can get 4 times more electrical power instead of 2 times.

HPM is probably possible in hardware from the very beginning for the GaN-based monster MURAD-600A, but it is not possible to implement it. Apart from that, in a news dated February 2022, DEW targets were included next to OKU for after 2030, high power laser was already mentioned in May. There are probably EMP (electromagnetic pulse) targets as well, and HPM integrated into the AESA radar is one of the ways to achieve this.

 

[TheInsider]

ACE is mostly related to design. You can design an ACE engine with directionally solidified turbine blades. On the other hand, CMC is the real deal. It is a generational leap from today's standard single-crystal blades.

 

[BaburKhan]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

 

[Spitfire9]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

 

[Oublious]

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

2025 will be second prototype delivered.

 

[TR_123456]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

Not so wise statement by him.

 

[Huelague]

Not so wise statement by him.

We have around 300 fighter jets and needs around 400. We will have 400 Kaan in long term.

 

[TheInsider]

He talks about immediate needs. Turkiye plans to acquire 240+ Kaans.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

 

[Samba]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

Neither f35 nor Kaan is a dog fighter.

 

[Tonyukuk]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

Well theoretically the Kaan should dominate. Especially in that scenario because they will be dogfighting without firing. Kaan should be more maneuverable. That said, I don't see them being deployed in such a scenario, 4th gen fighters will be preferred in peace times to keep the element of surprise.

 

[Heartbang]

He talks about immediate needs. Turkiye plans to acquire 240+ Kaans.

We need 1000+ TBH.

 

[uçuyorum]

I think F16 to KAAN comparison of numbers is a bit apples to oranges. KAAN will be very expensive to operate, but it is also much larger and capable. It is better to think of it as a different class of plane. I heard about the 100~ KAAN iofficial ntention before as well. Remember we are also acquiring 40 new F16 alongside modernizing 200+ of them with 2 programs, not to mention new uavs. So KAAN will be only one component of a high low mix for years to come as F16 continue to be a workhorse beyond 2050. By then, we might even make a new single engine fighter and limit KAAN numbers, that's a long time. Even US has only produced around 200 F22, and Russia can't even hit its 72 Su57 target which isn't even that advanced. And we haven't even entirely given up on 40 eurofighter acquisition. So not every single F16 will be replaced with KAAN anytime soon. We also have light attack version of hürjet being planned, another class of plane we don't have an equivalent of. Age of having a single fighter across the board is going to end, we will have to rethink logistics and mission planning significantly

 

[Spitfire9]

About Mr Kotil seeing KAAN selling 300...

If KAAN lives up to its performance expectations and is not very expensive to procure and operate several other countries could order it: Azerbaijan, Pakistan (if it can find the money), conceivably Indonesia - I assume Indonesia will be replaced in the the KF-21 programme. If and when KAAN gets a Turkish engine you can add any country on the US F-35 'no fly list' such as the Gulf states.

With a large order for TuAF giving economies of scale in production, a substantial number of export sales seems possible to me. A production run of 300 or more looks quite likely.

The Indian AMCA should be a competitor but will probably only be delivered with the GE F414 engine until at least 2040. The South Korean KF-21 should also be a competitor once it is redesigned with an internal weapons bay but will use the same American engine for the foreseeable future.

I guess that the KAAN will be 'the other 5G fighter' the air forces of the world will consider procuring during much of the next decade.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I think F16 to KAAN comparison of numbers is a bit apples to oranges. KAAN will be very expensive to operate, but it is also much larger and capable. It is better to think of it as a different class of plane. I heard about the 100~ KAAN iofficial ntention before as well. Remember we are also acquiring 40 new F16 alongside modernizing 200+ of them with 2 programs, not to mention new uavs. So KAAN will be only one component of a high low mix for years to come as F16 continue to be a workhorse beyond 2050. By then, we might even make a new single engine fighter and limit KAAN numbers, that's a long time. Even US has only produced around 200 F22, and Russia can't even hit its 72 Su57 target which isn't even that advanced. And we haven't even entirely given up on 40 eurofighter acquisition. So not every single F16 will be replaced with KAAN anytime soon. We also have light attack version of hürjet being planned, another class of plane we don't have an equivalent of. Age of having a single fighter across the board is going to end, we will have to rethink logistics and mission planning significantly

Exactly. Even 100 Kaan’s would be very expensive to acquire and maintain. Let alone ‘’300’’ or ‘’1000’’. 5th generation fighters are not designed to be produced as much as 4th generation fighters.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let us look at recent purchases of non partner countries’ f35 orders regarding how much it really costs to buy these planes that are 78million dollar a piece on paper, after inflation corrected to date :

Finland (2022)
64 planes 9.6 billion dollars : 160 million dollar a piece.
Poland (2020)
32 planes 4.6 billion dollars : 174 million dollar a piece.
Switzerland ((2022)
35 planes 6 billion dollars : 183 million dollar a piece
South Korea (2023)
25 planes 5.06 billion dollars : 208 million dollars a piece
Germany (2022)
35 planes for 10.9 billion dollars : 332 million dollars a piece
( German purchase included extensive missiles and weapons)

Even a partner country like Netherlands had to pay 1.1 billion dollars for additional 9 planes in 2019. That is 150 million a piece after inflation correction. They had calculated in 2007 that with the upkeep and maintenance costs, the bare plane was going to cost them 215 million a piece. That is 315 million dollars a piece with today’s dollar.

These stealth planes are not cheap to buy and keep. Our KAAN will not be an exception. On top of it they do not carry a lot of missiles and weapons. Their internal compartments have limited space. Not every missile or weapon will fit. So you are not utilising the full power potential of your engines and plane.
In “beast mode” they can carry plenty of weapons but then they are not stealthy and any different than your run of the mill 4th to 4.5 generation plane.
A plane like Eurofighter that is stealthy enough but not as stealthy as a F35 is actually a more practical way to go and may prove to be more useful plane under general battle conditions.
Use of stealth planes is here to stay. We need them. But they have to be complemented with good Rafale and Eurofighter type fighters.
So 100-150 KAANs are good for TuAF. But we need more capable 4.5 gen fighters. Even if it means downgrading KAAN to 4.5 gen level to make it more affordable..

 

[Spitfire9]

Exactly. Even 100 Kaan’s would be very expensive to acquire and maintain. Let alone ‘’300’’ or ‘’1000’’. 5th generation fighters are not designed to be produced as much as 4th generation fighters.

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

 

[Afif]

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

F-35's CPFH has crossed $40000 long time ago. KAAN is a twin engine heavy fighter. It Won't be less than $40000 even if we consider TUSAS will be able to do everything for cheaper. For total 8000 flight hours lifespan, it would cost $320 millions per KAAN over 30 years. Add to that flyaway cost of $120 millions each.

 

[uçuyorum]

What is expensive?

F-35 costs about $80 million flyaway.
Let's guess KAAN costs $110 million flyaway.

I believe that USAF F-35 CPFH >$30,000
Let's guess that TuAF KAAN CPFH >$20,000

Over 6,000 flight hours USAF cost for flying F-35 = $80 million + >$180 million
Over 6,000 flight hours TuAF cost for flying KAAN = $110 million + >$120 million

I wonder how those figures compare to F-16 in TuAF service. How much are the 40 new F-16 costing to buy?

Afaik 80 million figure for F35 is not inflation adjusted and is usd value for more than a decade ago