TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Afif]

If TF35000 was VCE, they would have definitely mentioned it explicitly IMO. Such development would be significant, I don't see they are referring to it ambiguously.

 

[KAAN]

I do not see an explicit indication here, but their description of a "6th generation engine" could imply that the ever-expanding and ultimate goals for this aircraft might necessitate such an engine. I would like to list additional reasons that could support this:

- As I said, it sounds very ridiculous for a country that has only a few minutes or even hours of turbofan engine experience, but many numerical values from the fuselage/subsystems/avionics/performance metrics of this aircraft to its basic data have evolved significantly compared to the beginning. If they apply this habit of pushing the limits to the engine as well, they can rationalize the 6th generation discourse.

- DEW is something that is impossible to support with existing engines, especially for avionics that already have 5th generation capabilities, reaching frightening levels of performance.

- It also seems to explain a sudden increase in thrust of about 10% from 35K to 38K (38K was first mentioned by the staff at the TEI stand at 2023 TEKNOFEST).

- Although it seems that the 600nm operational radius has been targeted since 2019, apparently the range targets are actually higher than expected. The aircraft has a slightly smaller wing area than the F22, thus a similar fuel capacity, but they can achieve this with around 30% more efficient fuel consumption of a VCE.

- While I am not very knowledgeable about engines, it is noticeable that the engine is a little wider, suggesting possible VCE integration.

- Additionally, CMC is a material technology generally associated with VCE. This can be inferred from Temel Kotil's statements and TEI's projects this year. In short, they are providing the most critical basic requirements for a VCE.

- Besides all the other advanced systems, the significant focus on the electrical subsystems and Temel Kotil's criticism of the related firm causing a delay in the first flight indicate the importance given to these components.

I don't know if they will succeed or not, but I suspect they have gone ambitious and set their sights on.

We can't go beyond speculation, but noting this during a period when TAI has taken on a mysterious aura akin to Skunk Works without any prior news prompted me to ask those more knowledgeable about engines. The sole purpose is to brainstorm ideas.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Dr Demiroglu, the new MD of Tusas says a great deal but doesn’t give any specifics that would quench our thirst.
He is talking about sixth generation fighter program. Sounds nice to the ear. But let us walk before we can run. We still don’t have a fully operational 5th generation plane yet. Let us mature that program and then discuss being number one in the world in 6th generation technology. (That doesn’t mean don’t work on it. But be more subtle and humble)

One of the prerequisites of a sixth generation plane is it’s Adaptive Cycle Engine. We don’t even have an operational 5th generation engine. Heck! We don’t even have an operational turbofan engine yet. GE and P&W are the only companies that have a working Adaptive Cycle Engine in the world that we know of. GE’s XA100 ran in 2020. Pratt & Whitney has an industry demonstrator engine XA101 that they are still developing. It ran first time in 2021. These engines develop 45000lbf thrust. To do this they need extreme TIT values. (Turbine Inlet Temperature). In F135 engine TIT values reach 1980 degrees Centigrade. Even with latest generation Single Crystal turbine blade usage, the engine life is detrimentally affected under these high temperatures. So use of CMC components is the way forward. Currently only some domestic airliner engines (like CFM Leap engine) are using the CMC materials in operational aircrafts, in Combuster Liner components, vanes, disks, hubs, rails, blade outer air seals and other turbine components. There is still a great deal of ground to be covered to mature this technology.

What makes a plane 6th generation?
The jury is still deliberating on the answer to that question.
But there are basics that almost everyone agrees on.
AI, Sensor Fusion, Better Stealth Characteristic, Large Data Transfer Rates Capabilities, Self Repair Capability, Longer Range Engagement Capabilities, Adaptive Cycle Engines, use of high powered Directed Energy Weapons.

The degree of application of these new technologies will vary and make one fighter better than the other. But they will still be one step ahead of current 5th generation planes with some degree of overlap between the two generations as there is a very fine line that separates both.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.
We need to see how Dr Demiroglu will perform in the coming months with the execution of his promises. He has big shoes to fill.
He said that TEI has progressed well deep in to the production of the Indigenous engine for the KAAN. But he did not specify any dates for delivery of a prototype and at what level of progress they are at. This is a vital point for the success of the MMU programme.

Engines are the soft belly of our defence industry. Right steps have been taken in some areas. But only after a gun was pointed at our head. Let’s hope that we have learned from our mistakes.

CMC performance tests:

Non CMC part

CMC part

As well as being high temperatures tolerant, these components are very tough.

GE’s Adaptive Cycle Engine

 

[Radonsider]

I dont get why ACE is required for 6th gen... It is just a way to achieve better fuel economy/performance. not every country needs it

 

[Yasar_TR]

I dont get why ACE is required for 6th gen... It is just a way to achieve better fuel economy/performance. not every country needs it

You need to decrease thermal image of the engine. ACE has three stream airflow system. The third stream is primarily there to serve as a thermal management heat sink.
This engine will give better range, speed and acceleration with a lot of dry thrust that is nearing 30K lbf level. That is more than a f110 on continuous afterburner mode. To use high power Directed Energy Weapons and long range Aesa radars the plane needs to be able to generate ample amounts of power. Whilst doing that it needs to be able to sustain it’s thrust delivery without hindrance.

You need equal amount of thrust when you are at sea level and at 60000ft without straining the engine. A turbojet will suffer at sea level. Also a Turbofan will be straining at 60000ft. This engine behaves like a high bypass turbofan at sea level and behaves more like a turbojet at 60000ft whilst smoothly transitioning from one to the other without compromising stealth characteristics. During this process all turbulence and heavy shuddering of engine and plane that can happen in certain cases, is eliminated. The so called “harmonic resonance,” has been an unwanted occurrence with the F135 even causing a F35B to crash.

 

[KAAN]

More thermal efficiency=more available electric=next generation radar/EW, DEW (directed energy weapon: high power laser, electromagnetic pulse, high-power microwave).

Even BÜRFİS alone will consume more than 100 kW of power (speculative), 122x2kW on paper and 116x2kW maximum power can be achieved in the test. Of course, even without ACE, the thermal performance of the 5th generation engine will improve this, but if they go for it, they can get 4 times more electrical power instead of 2 times.

HPM is probably possible in hardware from the very beginning for the GaN-based monster MURAD-600A, but it is not possible to implement it. Apart from that, in a news dated February 2022, DEW targets were included next to OKU for after 2030, high power laser was already mentioned in May. There are probably EMP (electromagnetic pulse) targets as well, and HPM integrated into the AESA radar is one of the ways to achieve this.

 

[TheInsider]

ACE is mostly related to design. You can design an ACE engine with directionally solidified turbine blades. On the other hand, CMC is the real deal. It is a generational leap from today's standard single-crystal blades.

 

[BaburKhan]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

 

[Spitfire9]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

 

[Oublious]

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

2025 will be second prototype delivered.

 

[TR_123456]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

Not so wise statement by him.

 

[Huelague]

Not so wise statement by him.

We have around 300 fighter jets and needs around 400. We will have 400 Kaan in long term.

 

[TheInsider]

He talks about immediate needs. Turkiye plans to acquire 240+ Kaans.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

 

[Samba]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

Neither f35 nor Kaan is a dog fighter.

 

[Tonyukuk]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

Well theoretically the Kaan should dominate. Especially in that scenario because they will be dogfighting without firing. Kaan should be more maneuverable. That said, I don't see them being deployed in such a scenario, 4th gen fighters will be preferred in peace times to keep the element of surprise.

 

[Heartbang]

He talks about immediate needs. Turkiye plans to acquire 240+ Kaans.

We need 1000+ TBH.

 

[uçuyorum]

I think F16 to KAAN comparison of numbers is a bit apples to oranges. KAAN will be very expensive to operate, but it is also much larger and capable. It is better to think of it as a different class of plane. I heard about the 100~ KAAN iofficial ntention before as well. Remember we are also acquiring 40 new F16 alongside modernizing 200+ of them with 2 programs, not to mention new uavs. So KAAN will be only one component of a high low mix for years to come as F16 continue to be a workhorse beyond 2050. By then, we might even make a new single engine fighter and limit KAAN numbers, that's a long time. Even US has only produced around 200 F22, and Russia can't even hit its 72 Su57 target which isn't even that advanced. And we haven't even entirely given up on 40 eurofighter acquisition. So not every single F16 will be replaced with KAAN anytime soon. We also have light attack version of hürjet being planned, another class of plane we don't have an equivalent of. Age of having a single fighter across the board is going to end, we will have to rethink logistics and mission planning significantly

 

[Spitfire9]

About Mr Kotil seeing KAAN selling 300...

If KAAN lives up to its performance expectations and is not very expensive to procure and operate several other countries could order it: Azerbaijan, Pakistan (if it can find the money), conceivably Indonesia - I assume Indonesia will be replaced in the the KF-21 programme. If and when KAAN gets a Turkish engine you can add any country on the US F-35 'no fly list' such as the Gulf states.

With a large order for TuAF giving economies of scale in production, a substantial number of export sales seems possible to me. A production run of 300 or more looks quite likely.

The Indian AMCA should be a competitor but will probably only be delivered with the GE F414 engine until at least 2040. The South Korean KF-21 should also be a competitor once it is redesigned with an internal weapons bay but will use the same American engine for the foreseeable future.

I guess that the KAAN will be 'the other 5G fighter' the air forces of the world will consider procuring during much of the next decade.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I think F16 to KAAN comparison of numbers is a bit apples to oranges. KAAN will be very expensive to operate, but it is also much larger and capable. It is better to think of it as a different class of plane. I heard about the 100~ KAAN iofficial ntention before as well. Remember we are also acquiring 40 new F16 alongside modernizing 200+ of them with 2 programs, not to mention new uavs. So KAAN will be only one component of a high low mix for years to come as F16 continue to be a workhorse beyond 2050. By then, we might even make a new single engine fighter and limit KAAN numbers, that's a long time. Even US has only produced around 200 F22, and Russia can't even hit its 72 Su57 target which isn't even that advanced. And we haven't even entirely given up on 40 eurofighter acquisition. So not every single F16 will be replaced with KAAN anytime soon. We also have light attack version of hürjet being planned, another class of plane we don't have an equivalent of. Age of having a single fighter across the board is going to end, we will have to rethink logistics and mission planning significantly

Exactly. Even 100 Kaan’s would be very expensive to acquire and maintain. Let alone ‘’300’’ or ‘’1000’’. 5th generation fighters are not designed to be produced as much as 4th generation fighters.