TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Fuzuli NL]

The KAAN is Just a Copy of…

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We call them the "Eziks"

 

[Afif]

Wrong thread. Needs to be moved USAF thread. @Kartal1

On the topic itself, that make sense. F35 block 4 and upgraded F22 would keep the qualitative edge of USAF for some decades. In some sense NGAD is more of the same. (Just on steroid).

Hence, diverting investments into global strike command and CCA in the short term makes sense. Though there is always possibility of congress forcing the air force to keep the NGAD program on time.

 

[DBdev]

“Rensselaer Gang” taking credit for Kotil's stellar hard work on KAAN at his TAI office I assume.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1805609998229049441

Forget 2028, 2030 would be a out of question with Gorgun's 9-to-5 lackadaisical tempo.

10 years later and ex-Aselsan boss Haluk still couldn't even deliver a decent Murad AESA radar at the level of F-16 SABR radar despite promises.

You may not see it right now but this is a sad day for anyone who is emotionally invested in KAAN project. You'll see... Delay after delay is loading...

 

[Oublious]

First testbed Kaan will be delivered in 2025.

 

[KAAN]

If I understand correctly, the TF-38.000 engine (formerly TF-35K) for the KAAN aircraft is described as not only supporting 5th-generation features (IR/acoustic stealth, supercruise, TVC, etc.) but also being at a 6th-generation level. It's clear that TEI's focus this year on CMC material projects (SİCİM and ÖTEKTİK) in various parts of the engine is for their flagship engine. Despite being innovative in CMC, I've been curious for a long time about the feasibility of a variable cycle engine (VCE), though it seems unrealistic. Even though I'm not knowledgeable enough to visually inspect and comment on the engine, it looks bulkier compared to its counterparts. This brings me to the point: could the approximately 10% thrust increase in an aircraft initially designed for 35K lbf thrust be the manifestation of Kotil's statement that the aircraft will feature "choice of higher technology compared to the F-22 and F-35" in its engine? One more airflow stream for VCE makes this slightly more bulkier?

Additionally, a few months ago, an unnamed DEW project for Block-3 was mentioned. The F110 engine, with half the thermal efficiency of the F135, achieved 116 kW power per engine with a temporary generator by VOLT Technology during a 2-month initial flight delay that Kotil criticized. This DEW concept isn't limited to high-power laser/EMP. For instance, Japanese research on the Mitsubishi F-X project suggests that a powerful radar could allow for high-power microwave (HPM) level pulses (Also, I do not think that even the experimental radar that they are pushing to see the limits for the nose radar is in the same league as MURAD-600A.)

When combining these pieces regarding the engine, it seems likely that it is designed to support not only 5th-generation avionics at the ultimate level but also towards 6th-generation capabilities.

My concise question is: for a country that has not yet proven itself in engine technology, does it seem plausible that they might be planning VCE/ACE for the KAAN?

And finally, it implicitly says that even the speed data of Block-1 aircraft will be superior to the aircraft in the current inventory.

I estimate that 30% more thrust in Block-2/3 will further improve this data. (I calculated ~2.4 mach without weight/aero data)

I forgot to add, it takes place at the 7th minute of the video. (6th gen engine)

Apogolize for the complexity of the message.

 

[Afif]

If TF35000 was VCE, they would have definitely mentioned it explicitly IMO. Such development would be significant, I don't see they are referring to it ambiguously.

 

[KAAN]

I do not see an explicit indication here, but their description of a "6th generation engine" could imply that the ever-expanding and ultimate goals for this aircraft might necessitate such an engine. I would like to list additional reasons that could support this:

- As I said, it sounds very ridiculous for a country that has only a few minutes or even hours of turbofan engine experience, but many numerical values from the fuselage/subsystems/avionics/performance metrics of this aircraft to its basic data have evolved significantly compared to the beginning. If they apply this habit of pushing the limits to the engine as well, they can rationalize the 6th generation discourse.

- DEW is something that is impossible to support with existing engines, especially for avionics that already have 5th generation capabilities, reaching frightening levels of performance.

- It also seems to explain a sudden increase in thrust of about 10% from 35K to 38K (38K was first mentioned by the staff at the TEI stand at 2023 TEKNOFEST).

- Although it seems that the 600nm operational radius has been targeted since 2019, apparently the range targets are actually higher than expected. The aircraft has a slightly smaller wing area than the F22, thus a similar fuel capacity, but they can achieve this with around 30% more efficient fuel consumption of a VCE.

- While I am not very knowledgeable about engines, it is noticeable that the engine is a little wider, suggesting possible VCE integration.

- Additionally, CMC is a material technology generally associated with VCE. This can be inferred from Temel Kotil's statements and TEI's projects this year. In short, they are providing the most critical basic requirements for a VCE.

- Besides all the other advanced systems, the significant focus on the electrical subsystems and Temel Kotil's criticism of the related firm causing a delay in the first flight indicate the importance given to these components.

I don't know if they will succeed or not, but I suspect they have gone ambitious and set their sights on.

We can't go beyond speculation, but noting this during a period when TAI has taken on a mysterious aura akin to Skunk Works without any prior news prompted me to ask those more knowledgeable about engines. The sole purpose is to brainstorm ideas.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Dr Demiroglu, the new MD of Tusas says a great deal but doesn’t give any specifics that would quench our thirst.
He is talking about sixth generation fighter program. Sounds nice to the ear. But let us walk before we can run. We still don’t have a fully operational 5th generation plane yet. Let us mature that program and then discuss being number one in the world in 6th generation technology. (That doesn’t mean don’t work on it. But be more subtle and humble)

One of the prerequisites of a sixth generation plane is it’s Adaptive Cycle Engine. We don’t even have an operational 5th generation engine. Heck! We don’t even have an operational turbofan engine yet. GE and P&W are the only companies that have a working Adaptive Cycle Engine in the world that we know of. GE’s XA100 ran in 2020. Pratt & Whitney has an industry demonstrator engine XA101 that they are still developing. It ran first time in 2021. These engines develop 45000lbf thrust. To do this they need extreme TIT values. (Turbine Inlet Temperature). In F135 engine TIT values reach 1980 degrees Centigrade. Even with latest generation Single Crystal turbine blade usage, the engine life is detrimentally affected under these high temperatures. So use of CMC components is the way forward. Currently only some domestic airliner engines (like CFM Leap engine) are using the CMC materials in operational aircrafts, in Combuster Liner components, vanes, disks, hubs, rails, blade outer air seals and other turbine components. There is still a great deal of ground to be covered to mature this technology.

What makes a plane 6th generation?
The jury is still deliberating on the answer to that question.
But there are basics that almost everyone agrees on.
AI, Sensor Fusion, Better Stealth Characteristic, Large Data Transfer Rates Capabilities, Self Repair Capability, Longer Range Engagement Capabilities, Adaptive Cycle Engines, use of high powered Directed Energy Weapons.

The degree of application of these new technologies will vary and make one fighter better than the other. But they will still be one step ahead of current 5th generation planes with some degree of overlap between the two generations as there is a very fine line that separates both.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.
We need to see how Dr Demiroglu will perform in the coming months with the execution of his promises. He has big shoes to fill.
He said that TEI has progressed well deep in to the production of the Indigenous engine for the KAAN. But he did not specify any dates for delivery of a prototype and at what level of progress they are at. This is a vital point for the success of the MMU programme.

Engines are the soft belly of our defence industry. Right steps have been taken in some areas. But only after a gun was pointed at our head. Let’s hope that we have learned from our mistakes.

CMC performance tests:

Non CMC part

CMC part

As well as being high temperatures tolerant, these components are very tough.

GE’s Adaptive Cycle Engine

 

[Radko]

I dont get why ACE is required for 6th gen... It is just a way to achieve better fuel economy/performance. not every country needs it

 

[Yasar_TR]

I dont get why ACE is required for 6th gen... It is just a way to achieve better fuel economy/performance. not every country needs it

You need to decrease thermal image of the engine. ACE has three stream airflow system. The third stream is primarily there to serve as a thermal management heat sink.
This engine will give better range, speed and acceleration with a lot of dry thrust that is nearing 30K lbf level. That is more than a f110 on continuous afterburner mode. To use high power Directed Energy Weapons and long range Aesa radars the plane needs to be able to generate ample amounts of power. Whilst doing that it needs to be able to sustain it’s thrust delivery without hindrance.

You need equal amount of thrust when you are at sea level and at 60000ft without straining the engine. A turbojet will suffer at sea level. Also a Turbofan will be straining at 60000ft. This engine behaves like a high bypass turbofan at sea level and behaves more like a turbojet at 60000ft whilst smoothly transitioning from one to the other without compromising stealth characteristics. During this process all turbulence and heavy shuddering of engine and plane that can happen in certain cases, is eliminated. The so called “harmonic resonance,” has been an unwanted occurrence with the F135 even causing a F35B to crash.

 

[KAAN]

More thermal efficiency=more available electric=next generation radar/EW, DEW (directed energy weapon: high power laser, electromagnetic pulse, high-power microwave).

Even BÜRFİS alone will consume more than 100 kW of power (speculative), 122x2kW on paper and 116x2kW maximum power can be achieved in the test. Of course, even without ACE, the thermal performance of the 5th generation engine will improve this, but if they go for it, they can get 4 times more electrical power instead of 2 times.

HPM is probably possible in hardware from the very beginning for the GaN-based monster MURAD-600A, but it is not possible to implement it. Apart from that, in a news dated February 2022, DEW targets were included next to OKU for after 2030, high power laser was already mentioned in May. There are probably EMP (electromagnetic pulse) targets as well, and HPM integrated into the AESA radar is one of the ways to achieve this.

 

[TheInsider]

ACE is mostly related to design. You can design an ACE engine with directionally solidified turbine blades. On the other hand, CMC is the real deal. It is a generational leap from today's standard single-crystal blades.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

 

[Spitfire9]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

 

[Oublious]

He says that a prototype close to the first block production aircraft will fly in 2025. Is that going to be the second prototype, expected to be rolled out this month?

2025 will be second prototype delivered.

 

[TR_123456]

TUSAŞ Expects 300 Orders for KAAN Fighter | TURDEF

In his interview, TUSAŞ’s new General Manager, Dr Mehmet Demiroğlu, talked about the KAAN Fighter jet and other projects.

turdef.com

Not so wise statement by him.

 

[Huelague]

Not so wise statement by him.

We have around 300 fighter jets and needs around 400. We will have 400 Kaan in long term.

 

[TheInsider]

He talks about immediate needs. Turkiye plans to acquire 240+ Kaans.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

 

[Samba]

I wonder how F-35 - KAAN matchup in the Aegean will play out. I don't mean in a childish "let's battle it out" way, but Greek Turkish relations will eventually get tense and we'll see dogfights maybe. How would those two planes fare in that environment is immensely interesting to me.

Neither f35 nor Kaan is a dog fighter.