TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[DBdev]

That vision started in late 70s, exacerbated after 2004 SSIK and continuously went forward. Turkey placed first F-35 order in 2014. In 2015, it ordered 4 more. By 2018, ordered aircraft had risen to 30. We had already started payments for those aircraft and first F-35s were to be delivered to Malatya by late 2020.
In 2019, Turkey was removed from the program. Again, we didn’t opt out from it, we were removed from it.

In 2023, Turkey got a congress approval to order F-16s in a deal worth up to 22 billion dollars. Turkey is currently expected to place the said order. Kaan’s development is directly tied to US Turkish relations. That’s not “independent defense industry vision”.

Turkish American defence relations is much more complicated than “undeclared embargoes since 90s”. Trying to simplify it doesn’t help.

Why are you misinterpreting what I said. I clearly said:
“Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.”

I never said we OPT-OUT with the word OPTION.
Opt-out is a whole other thing as in cancelling an e-mail subscription, entirely one-sided decision action.

Having an OPTION is like a fork in the road. We weren't actively TRYING to get out, and we would have stayed at least for a few F-35s we already paid for.
We could even have up to 100 F-35s and 150 KAANS if they didn't kick us out with blackmail and threats. Instead of what 250 KAANs planned now. But we weren't allowing anyone to dictate and control us. That is the opposite of being an independent state. They couldn't do that to Atatürk and now they can't do that to us once again.

And yes you can clone something without actually having it on your hands. China does that millions of times from a few pictures Chinese tourists take during their factory visits. They clone the entire factory from a few pictures. Most F-22 specs are pretty much public domain not 100% obviously. So clone won't be 100% identical, but close enough to be categorized as a clone. PAK-FA, J-20, KAAN etc. there are several F-22 clones. Like $100 iphone clones, but much better. Hopefully

 

[Spitfire9]

In 2023, Turkey got a congress approval to order F-16s in a deal worth up to 22 billion dollars. Turkey is currently expected to place the said order. Kaan’s development is directly tied to US Turkish relations. That’s not “independent defense industry vision”.

Turkish American defence relations is much more complicated than “undeclared embargoes since 90s”. Trying to simplify it doesn’t help.

I was really surprised by maximum value of the F-16 deal. It could be an illustration of how things can get very pricey if you are not on good terms with a country supplying you. That problem is avoided if your own industry can supply your needs. A production KAAN might be expensive ($120 million?) but at least that money will mostly be going into the Turkish economy.

 

[DBdev]

I was really surprised by maximum value of the F-16 deal. It could be an illustration of how things can get very pricey if you are not on good terms with a country supplying you. That problem is avoided if your own industry can supply your needs. A production KAAN might be expensive ($120 million?) but at least that money will mostly be going into the Turkish economy.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

 

[Sanchez]

And yes you can clone something without actually having it on your hands. China does that millions of times from a few pictures Chinese tourists take during their factory visits. They clone the entire factory from a few pictures. Most F-22 specs are pretty much public domain not 100% obviously. So clone won't be 100% identical, but close enough to be categorized as a clone. PAK-FA, J-20, KAAN etc. there are several F-22 clones. Like $100 iphone clones, but much better. Hopefully

Disagree on the use of word clone there tbh. Kaan is very different than what the Chinese are doing because we did not steal or retrieve any secret data like the Chinese did from F-22 and F-35. Stealing in defence is very much fine, so is copying(no rules in war), but that’s not what we’re doing.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

Agreed. And even with all that, we’ll buy those F-16s, say thank you and be very happy with the results.

 

[Afif]

Non of these are copies of F-22. Even the chinese ones. While Chinese definitely collected as much intel as they could, neither J-20 or J-35 is a copy of US design. Even if your Cyber espionage is very successful, it's not like in movies where you get the whole weapon design in a USB after a breech.

 

[Spitfire9]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

I agree that one cannot sign an arms contract with the US and be certain that it will be honoured.

I have not followed closely but is the delay on wrapping up the F-16 deal down to Turkiye objecting to Israel destroying Gaza and killing or mutilating many who live there?

What certainty is there that the supply of US engines for KAAN will not be delayed/halted due to future differences between the US and Turkiye? Perhaps that is not a very useful question since until a home-grown engine is available, Turkiye is stuck with using the F110 along with the supply uncertainty entailed by its country of origin being the US.

PS Not trying to stoke up anti-US/Israel sentiment. Just wondering about the wisdom of relying on the US to power both Turkiye's existing and future fighter for around the next decade (I guess). If Germany is content for Eurofighter to be supplied, would that be a lower risk deal than F-16?

 

[2033]

It is not some big mystery.

Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.

We had to buy the S-400 because we shot down a Russian plane. So your theory collapsed.

On the other hand, the TFX project had started before we were kicked out of the F-35 project. The Kaan was planned to replace the F-16s and the F-35 was planned to replace the F4s. Our pilots had even completed f-35 training.

 

[DBdev]

I agree that one cannot sign an arms contract with the US and be certain that it will be honoured.

I am almost certain the F-16 deal won't be honored. Greece was going to get F-35s, and we are supposed to get F-16 parts that they should be providing anyway as the most basic rule of selling something. But they are using even that as a card to blackmail us, not just selling new F-16s.

I have not followed closely but is the delay on wrapping up the F-16 deal down to Turkiye objecting to Israel destroying Gaza and killing or mutilating many who live there?

It is Greek lobby when it is loud, obnoxious, all over media and constant. And it is Israeli lobby when it is quiet but more damaging to us. Both want us to be as weak as possible militarily.

The senators that object and then galvanize the rest of the senate are either getting paid by Greece with Greek votes in their districts or with actual cash for “speeches”. As in Bob Menendez who goes to Greece regularly, or they are nominated, elected by and actual honest to God, in the payroll of Jewish lobbying organization AIPAC. No it is not against foreign agent act. Since it is Israel. Remember there was yet another investigation to New York Mayor for getting a first class seat upgrade from Turkish Airlines, for being a VIP. This is America folks.

If s400 excuse were to taken away, they still had 10 other excuses. Aegean tensions, PKK-YPG, lies about Türkiye supporting ISIS, Turkish nuclear program etc…

But beneath of all the other excuses is the undeniable real reason is this: Israel does not want Türkiye or even UAE to take away their qualitative edge. Now there is even a LAW created by AIPAC bought senators that makes it illegal for American senate to allow anyone in the region to reach Israel's level, technologically. That mean no F-35 for us no matter we did! America was talking about giving UAE F-35s but in exchange giving Israel F-22s to keep that edge. And people here want to kill our own president because of s400s. Sad really.

What certainty is there that the supply of US engines for KAAN will not be delayed/halted due to future differences between the US and Türkiye? Perhaps that is not a very useful question since until a home-grown engine is available, Türkiye is stuck with using the F110 along with the supply uncertainty entailed by its country of origin being the US.

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000. TF-6000 seems to be going just as planned. So that is why I now don't doubt this will happen just as CEO says.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1793527731071971409

PS, Not trying to stoke up anti-US/Israel sentiment. Just wondering about the wisdom of relying on the US to power both Türkiye's existing and future fighter for around the next decade (I guess). If Germany is content for Eurofighter to be supplied, would that be a lower risk deal than F-16?

Germany is also won't allow security of Israel to be jeopardized in any shape or form. Spain just recently confiscated a ship full of bombs going to Israel from Germany. So they are as bad as it comes if there is a risk of the Jewish state failing and all of them returning to Europe. Not because they suddenly love Israel so much so that they risk getting indicted along with America and Israel in the International Criminal Court. But they will say it is because of Kurds.

These are just my views on the subject it may not be the ultimate truth. I am open to your point of views.

 

[Spitfire9]

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000. TF-6000 seems to be going just as planned. So that is why I now don't doubt this will happen just as CEO says.

Mr Kotil knows a million times more about the KAAN than I do but I will be astonished to see KAAN flying with certified production engines in 2028. That would be a great, great achievement to me.

 

[Kartal1]

Another day, another off topic discussion... Off topic posts were moved to relevant thread. Keep the thread clean!

Thank you!

 

[Rodeo]

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000.

where did he say this?

he says they're building 8 prototypes, then they'll build 20 KAANs for delivery in 2028 and then they'll build one more for the indigenous engine. That's not in the 20 aircraft that are projected to be delivered in 2028.

 

[Radonsider]

Block 30 is scheduled for 2032

 

[Spitfire9]

(DEFENCE SECURITY ASIA) — Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country’s fifth-generation fighter jet, “KAAN,” is nearing completion.

TEI is a joint venture between Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and General Electric Aerospace (GE Aerospace).

“The TF10000 engine, capable of producing 6,000 lbf of thrust and intended for use in both manned and unmanned platforms including the KAAN fighter jet, is nearly ready,” TEI’s head, Mahmut Faruk Aksit, recently told Turkish media.

Turkey's Domestic Turbofan Engine TF10000 to Power 5th Gen 'KAAN' Fighter Jet - Defence Security Asia

Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country's fifth-generation fighter jet, "KAAN," is nearing completion.

defencesecurityasia.com

I don't believe that report for one moment. Is the journalist concerned making it up or just extremely inaccurate in his reporting? TEI's head thinks TF10000 produces 6,000lb thrust and thinks it will be used to power the KAAN????

 

[TheInsider]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

 

[boredaf]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

 

[DBdev]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

STEALTH - RCS comparisons - Materials - Techniques

Stealth is too important of a subject to be discussed just under KAAN or any other forum. So I think it deserves it's very own section. One of the most simplified hopefully accurate information on STEALTH, regarding RCS comparisons. Did you guys know even the ancient stealth airplane F-117...

defencehub.live

• I really think that our outdated stealth knowhow which is just spraying some old F-16 have glass v2, v3 level paint is our weakest link in KAAN chain. I find Turkish defense sector's lackadaisical approach to stealth extremely troubling. No honey, iron ball paint and stealthy-ish shape won't make it stealthy enough.
  
  
• Even the direction of stealth coating you apply matters.
  
  
• Conductivity of the tape on the wings has to be like a gradient, has to differ in order to dissipate more and more of traveling waves as they pass each tape.
  
  
• KAANs exhaust nozzles stick out from all angles. Horizontal stabilizers don't hide anything because they are so far away. Just look at an F-22 for God's sake.
  

Is the F-35 stealth coating just iron ball paint absorber like on the F-117? If not, what is it? Can the way it’s made be found out by us...

Answer (1 of 8): The composition of the F-35’s stealth coating is classified, but one of the major breakthroughs with the F-35’s stealth technology has been something referred to as “fiber mat”: > Lockheed Gives a Peek at New JSF Stealth Material Concept Aviation Week - 17 May 2010 "It is cal...

www.quora.com

 

[TR_123456]

Turkey's Domestic Turbofan Engine TF10000 to Power 5th Gen 'KAAN' Fighter Jet - Defence Security Asia

Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country's fifth-generation fighter jet, "KAAN," is nearing completion.

defencesecurityasia.com

I don't believe that report for one moment. Is the journalist concerned making it up or just extremely inaccurate in his reporting? TEI's head thinks TF10000 produces 6,000lb thrust and thinks it will be used to power the KAAN????

Yeah,they should at least have some knowledge of the aviation industry(in this case engines) before writing articles about it.

 

[Agha Sher]

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

KAAN Block 10 will be vastly superior to Rafale and F-16 Block 70 - there is no question about this. KAAN Block 10 should be able to present a challenge to F-35s - from official statements it will be superior in some aspects and inferior in other.

Greece would be exceptionally stupid if they think that a handful F-35s will alter the balance of power (even in the scenario that Turkiye has no KAANs in service). Turkiye's strength is not one dimensional. Turkiye is a TRUE military power not some plastic military that buys fancy high-end equipment at overprice.

By 2030, Turkiye's fleet of Anka III and KE alone will be able to defeat a handful of F-35s. Turkiye is not preparing for a small and insignificant military power like Greece. Turkiye is playing in the big league now, challenging Russia's, France's, US's influence globally.

 

[Afif]

KAAN Block 10 will be vastly superior to Rafale and F-16 Block 70 - there is no question about this. KAAN Block 10 should be able to present a challenge to F-35s - from official statements it will be superior in some aspects and inferior in other.

Greece would be exceptionally stupid if they think that a handful F-35s will alter the balance of power (even in the scenario that Turkiye has no KAANs in service). Turkiye's strength is not one dimensional. Turkiye is a TRUE military power not some plastic military that buys fancy high-end equipment at overprice.

KAAN block 10 is 4++ aircraft. Realistically speaking, it ain't gonna effectively challenge F35 block 4 which is Greece is getting. Wait for KAAN block 30 with indeginous stealthier engine, higher degree of sensor fusion and potentially new BUFRIS.(?)

 

[Agha Sher]

KAAN block 10 is 4++ aircraft. Realistically speaking, it ain't gonna effectively challenge F35 block 4 which is Greece is getting. Wait for KAAN block 30 with indeginous stealthier engine, higher degree of sensor fusion and potentially new BUFRIS.(?)

The arguments made for KAAN Block 10 being a 4.5+ generation fighter is primarily related to engines. Where is F-35s supercruise? Is F-35 then 4.5+ generation as well?

If I am not mistaken, BURFIS will be ready for KAAN Block 10.

As mentioned, in some aspects Block 10 will be superior to F-35 and inferior in other aspect. It will be the resposiblity of military planner to make sure that the combat scenario favors KAAN.