TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Rodeo]

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000.

where did he say this?

he says they're building 8 prototypes, then they'll build 20 KAANs for delivery in 2028 and then they'll build one more for the indigenous engine. That's not in the 20 aircraft that are projected to be delivered in 2028.

 

[Radko]

Block 30 is scheduled for 2032

 

[Spitfire9]

(DEFENCE SECURITY ASIA) — Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country’s fifth-generation fighter jet, “KAAN,” is nearing completion.

TEI is a joint venture between Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and General Electric Aerospace (GE Aerospace).

“The TF10000 engine, capable of producing 6,000 lbf of thrust and intended for use in both manned and unmanned platforms including the KAAN fighter jet, is nearly ready,” TEI’s head, Mahmut Faruk Aksit, recently told Turkish media.

Turkey's Domestic Turbofan Engine TF10000 to Power 5th Gen 'KAAN' Fighter Jet - Defence Security Asia

Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country's fifth-generation fighter jet, "KAAN," is nearing completion.

defencesecurityasia.com

I don't believe that report for one moment. Is the journalist concerned making it up or just extremely inaccurate in his reporting? TEI's head thinks TF10000 produces 6,000lb thrust and thinks it will be used to power the KAAN????

 

[TheInsider]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

 

[boredaf]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

 

[DBdev]

Block 30 will have a laser weapon and a serial production variant of the national engine. Block 30 will also have an improved RCS coating (~25db).

There will be early availability of the TF6000 engine for Kızılelma and Anka-3 prototypes in 2025. TF6000/10000 serial production is on track for 2026.

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

STEALTH - RCS comparisons - Materials - Techniques

Stealth is too important of a subject to be discussed just under KAAN or any other forum. So I think it deserves it's very own section. One of the most simplified hopefully accurate information on STEALTH, regarding RCS comparisons. Did you guys know even the ancient stealth airplane F-117...

defencehub.live

• I really think that our outdated stealth knowhow which is just spraying some old F-16 have glass v2, v3 level paint is our weakest link in KAAN chain. I find Turkish defense sector's lackadaisical approach to stealth extremely troubling. No honey, iron ball paint and stealthy-ish shape won't make it stealthy enough.
  
  
• Even the direction of stealth coating you apply matters.
  
  
• Conductivity of the tape on the wings has to be like a gradient, has to differ in order to dissipate more and more of traveling waves as they pass each tape.
  
  
• KAANs exhaust nozzles stick out from all angles. Horizontal stabilizers don't hide anything because they are so far away. Just look at an F-22 for God's sake.
  

Is the F-35 stealth coating just iron ball paint absorber like on the F-117? If not, what is it? Can the way it’s made be found out by us...

Answer (1 of 6): The composition of the F-35’s stealth coating is classified, but one of the major breakthroughs with the F-35’s stealth technology has been something referred to as “fiber mat”: > Lockheed Gives a Peek at New JSF Stealth Material Concept Aviation Week - 17 May 2010 "It is cal...

www.quora.com

 

[TR_123456]

Turkey's Domestic Turbofan Engine TF10000 to Power 5th Gen 'KAAN' Fighter Jet - Defence Security Asia

Turkish engine manufacturer, TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI), has announced that the domestically produced engine intended for the country's fifth-generation fighter jet, "KAAN," is nearing completion.

defencesecurityasia.com

I don't believe that report for one moment. Is the journalist concerned making it up or just extremely inaccurate in his reporting? TEI's head thinks TF10000 produces 6,000lb thrust and thinks it will be used to power the KAAN????

Yeah,they should at least have some knowledge of the aviation industry(in this case engines) before writing articles about it.

 

[Agha Sher]

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

KAAN Block 10 will be vastly superior to Rafale and F-16 Block 70 - there is no question about this. KAAN Block 10 should be able to present a challenge to F-35s - from official statements it will be superior in some aspects and inferior in other.

Greece would be exceptionally stupid if they think that a handful F-35s will alter the balance of power (even in the scenario that Turkiye has no KAANs in service). Turkiye's strength is not one dimensional. Turkiye is a TRUE military power not some plastic military that buys fancy high-end equipment at overprice.

By 2030, Turkiye's fleet of Anka III and KE alone will be able to defeat a handful of F-35s. Turkiye is not preparing for a small and insignificant military power like Greece. Turkiye is playing in the big league now, challenging Russia's, France's, US's influence globally.

 

[Afif]

KAAN Block 10 will be vastly superior to Rafale and F-16 Block 70 - there is no question about this. KAAN Block 10 should be able to present a challenge to F-35s - from official statements it will be superior in some aspects and inferior in other.

Greece would be exceptionally stupid if they think that a handful F-35s will alter the balance of power (even in the scenario that Turkiye has no KAANs in service). Turkiye's strength is not one dimensional. Turkiye is a TRUE military power not some plastic military that buys fancy high-end equipment at overprice.

KAAN block 10 is 4++ aircraft. Realistically speaking, it ain't gonna effectively challenge F35 block 4 which is Greece is getting. Wait for KAAN block 30 with indeginous stealthier engine, higher degree of sensor fusion and potentially new BUFRIS.(?)

 

[Agha Sher]

KAAN block 10 is 4++ aircraft. Realistically speaking, it ain't gonna effectively challenge F35 block 4 which is Greece is getting. Wait for KAAN block 30 with indeginous stealthier engine, higher degree of sensor fusion and potentially new BUFRIS.(?)

The arguments made for KAAN Block 10 being a 4.5+ generation fighter is primarily related to engines. Where is F-35s supercruise? Is F-35 then 4.5+ generation as well?

If I am not mistaken, BURFIS will be ready for KAAN Block 10.

As mentioned, in some aspects Block 10 will be superior to F-35 and inferior in other aspect. It will be the resposiblity of military planner to make sure that the combat scenario favors KAAN.

 

[Afif]

The arguments made for KAAN Block 10 being a 4.5+ generation fighter is primarily related to engines. Where is F-35s supercruise? Is F-35 then 4.5+ generation as well?

If I am not mistaken, BURFIS will be ready for KAAN Block 10.

It's not about supercruise, that is not a requirement. It's about platform maturity across the domains. In which KAAN block 10 is not comparable with F35 block 4.

 

[TheInsider]

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

The initial laser weapon might not be a majestic 150kW laser. It might be a more conservative one but it will be enough to fry the electronics of missiles at longer ranges(5+km) and enough to destroy at short ranges (<5 km)

20 F-35 won't change the tide of war. Block 10 will have Burfis. Even the block 10 Kaan will have 20db class stealth coating. Scaling production of artillery rounds, artillery rockets, tactical ballistic missiles, cruise/antiship missiles, kamikaze UAVs/USVs, integrated air defense and EW systems will win a possible war. I don't count tactical and MALE UAVs as we have a good production capacity.

 

[boredaf]

The initial laser weapon might not be a majestic 150kW laser. It might be a more conservative one but it will be enough to fry the electronics of missiles at longer ranges(5+km) and enough to destroy at short ranges (<5 km)

As I said, I'm not holding my breath as I don't believe it will be the way of the future, (so to say) that's my personal belief from what I've seen so far for all the reasons I mentioned.

 

[Radko]

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

"laser weapon" is just a fancy word for improved DIRCM

 

[Radko]

"laser weapon" is just a fancy word for improved DIRCM

also US stopped working on HEL mounted on aircraft. They simply dont work as advertised

 

[Rodeo]

Guys, please stay on topic!

 

[No Name]

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

STEALTH - RCS comparisons - Materials - Techniques

Stealth is too important of a subject to be discussed just under KAAN or any other forum. So I think it deserves it's very own section. One of the most simplified hopefully accurate information on STEALTH, regarding RCS comparisons. Did you guys know even the ancient stealth airplane F-117...

defencehub.live

• I really think that our outdated stealth knowhow which is just spraying some old F-16 have glass v2, v3 level paint is our weakest link in KAAN chain. I find Turkish defense sector's lackadaisical approach to stealth extremely troubling. No honey, iron ball paint and stealthy-ish shape won't make it stealthy enough.
  
  
• Even the direction of stealth coating you apply matters.
  
  
• Conductivity of the tape on the wings has to be like a gradient, has to differ in order to dissipate more and more of traveling waves as they pass each tape.
  
  
• KAANs exhaust nozzles stick out from all angles. Horizontal stabilizers don't hide anything because they are so far away. Just look at an F-22 for God's sake.

Is the F-35 stealth coating just iron ball paint absorber like on the F-117? If not, what is it? Can the way it’s made be found out by us...

Answer (1 of 6): The composition of the F-35’s stealth coating is classified, but one of the major breakthroughs with the F-35’s stealth technology has been something referred to as “fiber mat”: > Lockheed Gives a Peek at New JSF Stealth Material Concept Aviation Week - 17 May 2010 "It is cal...

www.quora.com

I noticed that about the horizontal stabilisers as well and have been wondering if the position of the stabilizers will change in future fighter airframes. We know that they are making changes to the airframe for the second prototype. Can one of the changes be the location of the horizontal stabilisers, maybe?

That said, I think it is completely unfair to say that they don't know what they are doing with the paint, especially since Aselsan has been working on it since the 90s and, if I'm remembering correctly, won some type of NATO competition over its Ram paint a couple of years ago.

 

[Rodeo]

Some of the highlights from Temel Kotil's most recent interview:

- The software packages used to develop KAAN are Abaqus, Patran, LS-DYNA, Siemens NX and Dassault PLM. The main design software used is Dassault PLM(at 22:45 in the video)

- The memory of the computer that was used to design the geometry of KAAN is over a petabyte(special attention was paid to the radar returns of the body).(26:30 in the video)

- The entire skin is composite made.

- They're making 8 prototypes of KAAN, then they will make 20 KAANs for delivery in 2028, after that they will make one more KAAN for the indigenous engines to fly in 2028.

- KAAN will have a cannon.(1:12:25)

Türkiye'nin Havacılık Vizyonu

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel KOTİL

www.youtube.com

 

[Lool]

If this is true, then does that mean that Turkey built the KAAN with its own engineers without foreign/technical support? Insane

From Temil kotil's interview
TUSAŞ General Manager Prof. Dr. Basic Cotyl:
- MMU / - KAAN -
-KAAN started in 2017-2018 in partnership with BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. -BAE Systems was going to support us with 100 engineers, but then they disappeared

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1794657896275509581

 

[Afif]

If this is true, then does that mean that Turkey built the KAAN with its own engineers without foreign/technical support? Insane

From Temil kotil's interview
TUSAŞ General Manager Prof. Dr. Basic Cotyl:
- MMU / - KAAN -
-KAAN started in 2017-2018 in partnership with BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. -BAE Systems was going to support us with 100 engineers, but then they disappeared

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1794657896275509581

Is he saying the contract with BAE wasn't realized?