TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Spitfire9]

Max speed of Kaan will be 2.2 Mach.

Source?

 

[Spitfire9]

Is information about flight testing available? Has it started?

 

[Huelague]

Source?

Just one example

Turkey's homemade fighter poised to storm global markets - Asia Times

Turkey's Kaan Next-Generation Fighter, previously known as the TF-X, has made its first flight, giving rise to geostrategic speculation the fighter jet

asiatimes.com

 

[Afif]

Digital radar screen on a simulator doesn't mean much. It has no purpose other than primary demonstration of system's functionality. Not to publicly reveal the range and exact performance parameters of the actual system. Those are classified.

Officially, we don't have any statement on the range performance of MURAD let alone BUFRIS. However, recently Temel Kotil stated, Hurjet will have indeginous radar with 200km range. Which will be a scale downed version of MURAD. likely 800-850 T/R modules. (MURAD and BUFRIS will use the same T/R modules.) We can do some speculation from here.

Here are few general rules of thumb.

*If you increase the peak power of T/R modules from 30w to 60w, it will only increases the range by 19%. (To increase the range by 100% you need to increase the peak power up to 16 times.)

((1000/1000)^3*(60/30))^(1/4)

=1.19

However, considering everything is same, if you increase the numbers of T/R modules two times, you will get increase in range by 68%. That's why additional T/R modules matters.

(2000/1000)^3*(30/30))^(1/4)

=1.68

Now, even with a conservative estimate, Let's say, Hurjet's radar 200km range is meant to be against 5m2 RCS target. BUFRIS having 2000+ T/R modules means increase in range would be roughly 90%.

(2000/850)^3*(30/30))^(1/4)

=1.89

That means, 380km detection range for BUFRIS's frontal aperture against 5m2 RCS target. Meaning, 250km+ detection range against 1m2 target.

Burfis should have 250km+ range for the same target. (I.e. 1m² target)

O btw, active cancelation or even DRFM in practice doesn't work against Modern AESA radars that can change its frequency up to 1000 times or more per second. Not to mention detection of LPI AESA emissions is a difficult job to begin with.

 

[Spitfire9]

Just one example

Turkey's homemade fighter poised to storm global markets - Asia Times

Turkey's Kaan Next-Generation Fighter, previously known as the TF-X, has made its first flight, giving rise to geostrategic speculation the fighter jet

asiatimes.com

Just for the record, from the source:

Popular Mechanics mentions that the Kaan is expected to meet performance benchmarks for modern fighter jets, with a top speed between Mach 1.8 to 2.2

That is not quite the same as saying that KAAN will have a top speed of Mach 2.2.

 

[DBdev]

Just for the record, from the source:



That is not quite the same as saying that KAAN will have a top speed of Mach 2.2.

It is not some big mystery.

Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.

Even the engine thrust targets are similar.
A stealthy TF-35000 (actually 38000lbf) to clone F-119 (35000lbf)
Similar size and stealth geometry. So similar drag.

In theory, it SHOULD be around Mach 1.8 super cruise and Mach 2.2+ with afterburners. Even without any simulation software.

That is still a very conservative target F-15 with weaker engines can hit Mach 2.4. Why the disbelief that a stronger engine can hit Mach 2.2+ considering there is no thrust loss due to stealthy nozzles. Also most of the time all these fighters fly subsonic anyway. Even if they have super cruise ability. It is better to have greater range, payload than greater speed most of the time.

 

[Spitfire9]

BBdev
Thanks for that. It gives a reasoned explanation to support KAAN having a top speed in the region of mach 2.2.

 

[Sanchez]

It is not some big mystery.

Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.

Even the engine thrust targets are similar.
A stealthy TF-35000 (actually 38000lbf) to clone F-119 (35000lbf)
Similar size and stealth geometry. So similar drag.

Turkey did not decide against F-35. Turkish gov tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35 and then got booted from the F-35 program. Turkey still wants to receive the F-35s it helped build and already paid for. Rewriting history is counterproductive and is basically lying.

You can’t “clone” something you don’t own, be it an F-22 or the F119.

 

[DBdev]

Turkey did not decide against F-35. Turkish gov tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35 and then got booted from the F-35 program. Turkey still wants to receive the F-35s it helped build and already paid for. Rewriting history is counterproductive and is basically lying.

You can’t “clone” something you don’t own, be it an F-22 or the F119.

Sure if we could get a few F-35s, the ones we already paid for, that would be useful for testing KAAN against them. But we had already made a strategic decision for an independent defense industry. There was an undeclared embargo against us since 90s. That is what being under the thumb of west means. Lindsay Graham came here repated CAATSA threats. We were not going to back down from our new independent defense industry vision, whatever they do. Period! I am glad we didn't.

 

[Sanchez]

Sure if we could get a few F-35s, the ones we already paid for, that would be useful for testing KAAN against them. But we had already made a strategic decision for an independent defense industry. There was an undeclared embargo against us since 90s. That is what being under the thumb of west means. Lindsay Graham came here repated CAATSA threats. We were not going to back down from our new independent defense industry vision, whatever they do. Period! I am glad we didn't.

That vision started in late 70s, exacerbated after 2004 SSIK and continuously went forward. Turkey placed first F-35 order in 2014. In 2015, it ordered 4 more. By 2018, ordered aircraft had risen to 30. We had already started payments for those aircraft and first F-35s were to be delivered to Malatya by late 2020.
In 2019, Turkey was removed from the program. Again, we didn’t opt out from it, we were removed from it.

In 2023, Turkey got a congress approval to order F-16s in a deal worth up to 22 billion dollars. Turkey is currently expected to place the said order. Kaan’s development is directly tied to US Turkish relations. That’s not “independent defense industry vision”.

Turkish American defence relations is much more complicated than “undeclared embargoes since 90s”. Trying to simplify it doesn’t help.

 

[DBdev]

That vision started in late 70s, exacerbated after 2004 SSIK and continuously went forward. Turkey placed first F-35 order in 2014. In 2015, it ordered 4 more. By 2018, ordered aircraft had risen to 30. We had already started payments for those aircraft and first F-35s were to be delivered to Malatya by late 2020.
In 2019, Turkey was removed from the program. Again, we didn’t opt out from it, we were removed from it.

In 2023, Turkey got a congress approval to order F-16s in a deal worth up to 22 billion dollars. Turkey is currently expected to place the said order. Kaan’s development is directly tied to US Turkish relations. That’s not “independent defense industry vision”.

Turkish American defence relations is much more complicated than “undeclared embargoes since 90s”. Trying to simplify it doesn’t help.

Why are you misinterpreting what I said. I clearly said:
“Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.”

I never said we OPT-OUT with the word OPTION.
Opt-out is a whole other thing as in cancelling an e-mail subscription, entirely one-sided decision action.

Having an OPTION is like a fork in the road. We weren't actively TRYING to get out, and we would have stayed at least for a few F-35s we already paid for.
We could even have up to 100 F-35s and 150 KAANS if they didn't kick us out with blackmail and threats. Instead of what 250 KAANs planned now. But we weren't allowing anyone to dictate and control us. That is the opposite of being an independent state. They couldn't do that to Atatürk and now they can't do that to us once again.

And yes you can clone something without actually having it on your hands. China does that millions of times from a few pictures Chinese tourists take during their factory visits. They clone the entire factory from a few pictures. Most F-22 specs are pretty much public domain not 100% obviously. So clone won't be 100% identical, but close enough to be categorized as a clone. PAK-FA, J-20, KAAN etc. there are several F-22 clones. Like $100 iphone clones, but much better. Hopefully

 

[Spitfire9]

In 2023, Turkey got a congress approval to order F-16s in a deal worth up to 22 billion dollars. Turkey is currently expected to place the said order. Kaan’s development is directly tied to US Turkish relations. That’s not “independent defense industry vision”.

Turkish American defence relations is much more complicated than “undeclared embargoes since 90s”. Trying to simplify it doesn’t help.

I was really surprised by maximum value of the F-16 deal. It could be an illustration of how things can get very pricey if you are not on good terms with a country supplying you. That problem is avoided if your own industry can supply your needs. A production KAAN might be expensive ($120 million?) but at least that money will mostly be going into the Turkish economy.

 

[DBdev]

I was really surprised by maximum value of the F-16 deal. It could be an illustration of how things can get very pricey if you are not on good terms with a country supplying you. That problem is avoided if your own industry can supply your needs. A production KAAN might be expensive ($120 million?) but at least that money will mostly be going into the Turkish economy.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

 

[Sanchez]

And yes you can clone something without actually having it on your hands. China does that millions of times from a few pictures Chinese tourists take during their factory visits. They clone the entire factory from a few pictures. Most F-22 specs are pretty much public domain not 100% obviously. So clone won't be 100% identical, but close enough to be categorized as a clone. PAK-FA, J-20, KAAN etc. there are several F-22 clones. Like $100 iphone clones, but much better. Hopefully

Disagree on the use of word clone there tbh. Kaan is very different than what the Chinese are doing because we did not steal or retrieve any secret data like the Chinese did from F-22 and F-35. Stealing in defence is very much fine, so is copying(no rules in war), but that’s not what we’re doing.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

Agreed. And even with all that, we’ll buy those F-16s, say thank you and be very happy with the results.

 

[Afif]

Non of these are copies of F-22. Even the chinese ones. While Chinese definitely collected as much intel as they could, neither J-20 or J-35 is a copy of US design. Even if your Cyber espionage is very successful, it's not like in movies where you get the whole weapon design in a USB after a breech.

 

[Spitfire9]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that F-16 deal either. Just like the F-35 deal they can get the cash and senate still can cancel the sale while F-16s we paid for are being loaded to cargo ship. They will have that gun to our heads forever with part sales and upgrades for decades and decades. Their words, signatures, agreements, promises aren't worth the paper they sign.

I agree that one cannot sign an arms contract with the US and be certain that it will be honoured.

I have not followed closely but is the delay on wrapping up the F-16 deal down to Turkiye objecting to Israel destroying Gaza and killing or mutilating many who live there?

What certainty is there that the supply of US engines for KAAN will not be delayed/halted due to future differences between the US and Turkiye? Perhaps that is not a very useful question since until a home-grown engine is available, Turkiye is stuck with using the F110 along with the supply uncertainty entailed by its country of origin being the US.

PS Not trying to stoke up anti-US/Israel sentiment. Just wondering about the wisdom of relying on the US to power both Turkiye's existing and future fighter for around the next decade (I guess). If Germany is content for Eurofighter to be supplied, would that be a lower risk deal than F-16?

 

[2033]

It is not some big mystery.

Türkiye had the option to stay in F-35 program and under the thumb of west but moved on with s400 instead in order to make her own, F-22 clone with that money they promised to USA.

We had to buy the S-400 because we shot down a Russian plane. So your theory collapsed.

On the other hand, the TFX project had started before we were kicked out of the F-35 project. The Kaan was planned to replace the F-16s and the F-35 was planned to replace the F4s. Our pilots had even completed f-35 training.

 

[DBdev]

I agree that one cannot sign an arms contract with the US and be certain that it will be honoured.

I am almost certain the F-16 deal won't be honored. Greece was going to get F-35s, and we are supposed to get F-16 parts that they should be providing anyway as the most basic rule of selling something. But they are using even that as a card to blackmail us, not just selling new F-16s.

I have not followed closely but is the delay on wrapping up the F-16 deal down to Turkiye objecting to Israel destroying Gaza and killing or mutilating many who live there?

It is Greek lobby when it is loud, obnoxious, all over media and constant. And it is Israeli lobby when it is quiet but more damaging to us. Both want us to be as weak as possible militarily.

The senators that object and then galvanize the rest of the senate are either getting paid by Greece with Greek votes in their districts or with actual cash for “speeches”. As in Bob Menendez who goes to Greece regularly, or they are nominated, elected by and actual honest to God, in the payroll of Jewish lobbying organization AIPAC. No it is not against foreign agent act. Since it is Israel. Remember there was yet another investigation to New York Mayor for getting a first class seat upgrade from Turkish Airlines, for being a VIP. This is America folks.

If s400 excuse were to taken away, they still had 10 other excuses. Aegean tensions, PKK-YPG, lies about Türkiye supporting ISIS, Turkish nuclear program etc…

But beneath of all the other excuses is the undeniable real reason is this: Israel does not want Türkiye or even UAE to take away their qualitative edge. Now there is even a LAW created by AIPAC bought senators that makes it illegal for American senate to allow anyone in the region to reach Israel's level, technologically. That mean no F-35 for us no matter we did! America was talking about giving UAE F-35s but in exchange giving Israel F-22s to keep that edge. And people here want to kill our own president because of s400s. Sad really.

What certainty is there that the supply of US engines for KAAN will not be delayed/halted due to future differences between the US and Türkiye? Perhaps that is not a very useful question since until a home-grown engine is available, Türkiye is stuck with using the F110 along with the supply uncertainty entailed by its country of origin being the US.

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000. TF-6000 seems to be going just as planned. So that is why I now don't doubt this will happen just as CEO says.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1793527731071971409

PS, Not trying to stoke up anti-US/Israel sentiment. Just wondering about the wisdom of relying on the US to power both Türkiye's existing and future fighter for around the next decade (I guess). If Germany is content for Eurofighter to be supplied, would that be a lower risk deal than F-16?

Germany is also won't allow security of Israel to be jeopardized in any shape or form. Spain just recently confiscated a ship full of bombs going to Israel from Germany. So they are as bad as it comes if there is a risk of the Jewish state failing and all of them returning to Europe. Not because they suddenly love Israel so much so that they risk getting indicted along with America and Israel in the International Criminal Court. But they will say it is because of Kurds.

These are just my views on the subject it may not be the ultimate truth. I am open to your point of views.

 

[Spitfire9]

Kotil said at least 1 of the 20 KAANs that will be delivered in 4 years will have Turkish engine TF-35000. TF-6000 seems to be going just as planned. So that is why I now don't doubt this will happen just as CEO says.

Mr Kotil knows a million times more about the KAAN than I do but I will be astonished to see KAAN flying with certified production engines in 2028. That would be a great, great achievement to me.

 

[Kartal1]

Another day, another off topic discussion... Off topic posts were moved to relevant thread. Keep the thread clean!

Thank you!