TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[blackjack]

3rd stream cycle, so I guess the US and Russia are not the only 2 countries now developing a similar engine.

 

[boredaf]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?

 

[TheInsider]

There won't be a Tempest before 2040. There is no point to talk about a fighter on the paper. We should first see how the project unfolds.

 

[TheInsider]

Please tell me when the tender was held and who won it. What is TRMotor's role in this? TEI will develop it, but will TRMotor own the IP (intellectual property) rights? What approach will be followed?

There are two different tenders. Development tender and production tender. TRMotor won the first one and IP rights will be owned by TRMotor. Both TRMotor and TEI(Majority shares) are owned by TUSAS so TUSAS is developing its own engine for its own product. TEI is a critical technology provider and production partner. It is done this way so that Americans don't own %46 of the engine through their shares in TEI. TRMotor is a design bureau. The design team includes TEI, TRMotor and Ivchenko Progress.
Currently, the team is pushing really hard to put the first prototype of the engine on the bench before 2026 ends. Ambitious goals somewhat became a norm for the Turkish defense industry even if you miss the date it pushes people to work hard and shorten the overall process. I think we might see a slight delay of 3-6 months.


Production might involve a lot of different companies like Alp Aviation, Kale Jet Engines etc. Work packages will be distributed to a lot of different companies. TEI is expected to get the lion's share and the hardest parts. TRMotor might also invest in some production capability. Maybe an assembly line.

The engine will produce a wet thrust of 36000-38000 lbf. It will be lighter than 2000kg.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

 

[TheInsider]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

3 I don't want to tell this here but Turkiye is in a backdoor diplomacy process with the Chinese through Pakistan for a backup plan. If the US refuses to supply F110 Turkiye wants to secure Chinese engines at least for Pakistan but Turkiye also evaluates a doomsday scenario in which the US senate completely blocks F110 delivery to Turkiye. China also wants to export its own engines. Turkiye sees no such possibility for F404 at least for the trainer version of Hurjet.

I highly doubt that Pakistan is getting anything other than an assembly line and even that is doubtful because even structural part production and assembly of the fighter involves advanced processes. Production and assembly of JF-17 and Kaan are inherently different.

Turkiye is at a crossroads with the US in nearly everything. Either the US will come to our terms and we will support the US in the era of great power competition (albeit subtly) or the US will continue at the same route and we will take a third-way approach and support neither side and conduct critical business with all players when it is beneficial.

 

[boredaf]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

If we allow them to build anything critical there, this project is being led by utter morons, sums up my thoughts, albeit in a harsh language. I said it before and I'll say it again, if it were up to me, I wouldn't even sell Kaan to them, let alone giving them a production line.

Their economy, as you rightly pointed out, is on on the verge of collapsing for some time now. They are increasingly getting closer to China and their situation is not going to get any better as climate change starts hitting harder as they are right in the middle of one of the regions that are going to get hit the hardest without a doubt. They are not going to deny China a look under the hood if they ask for it, not when so many of their projects depend on them.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

How realistic is it if the indigenous engine has this configuration it is less complex than the F-110 129, it has less mechanical parts and therefore a bit more power.

It has 1 less fan and compressor and 1 more high and low pressure turbine to distribute the load more evenly.

 

[TheInsider]

How realistic is it if the indigenous engine has this configuration it is less complex than the F-110 129, it has less mechanical parts and therefore a bit more power.

View attachment 73224

Who did this? This is different from what I expect from TF-35000. For example, I expect a bypass ratio of around 0.7. 0.8 to 1.2 is too high. TF-35000 won't have a thrust lower than 36000 lbf ( It will have a wet thrust somewhere between 160 to 170 kN/36000 to 38000 lbf)

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Who did this? This is different from what I expect from TF-35000. For example, I expect a bypass ratio of around 0.7. 0.8 to 1.2 is too high. TF-35000 won't have a thrust lower than 36000 lbf ( It will have a wet thrust somewhere between 160 to 170 kN/36000 to 38000 lbf)

This is just a theory of mine, I just wanted to make the engine less complex as Revision 1.
TAI KAAN will probably be a bit smaller and more delicate anyway, between 6-8% reduction is mentioned, and therefore also lighter.
So 90kn dry and 150kn wet is a sweet spot, isn't it?

You also have to be realistic, Turkey simply can't produce an absolute high-end Engine at the moment, so moderate values may be what Turkey can really achieve.

 

[KAAN]

Tolga Özbek is a serious person.

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

 

[hugh]

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

He says the second prototype(P1) will fly after June, and the third(P2) prototype will fly before the end of the year.

 

[TheInsider]

This is just a theory of mine, I just wanted to make the engine less complex as Revision 1.
TAI KAAN will probably be a bit smaller and more delicate anyway, between 6-8% reduction is mentioned, and therefore also lighter.
So 90kn dry and 150kn wet is a sweet spot, isn't it?

You also have to be realistic, Turkey simply can't produce an absolute high-end Engine at the moment, so moderate values may be what Turkey can really achieve.

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

 

[Oublious]

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

So we are are on a level we can upgrade our F16 with certain confident, from radar to sensor we are ob block70 level.

 

[Huelague]

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

If we can produce YF120-like engine, it would be fantastic.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

OK, you don't seem to understand Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line just because you or I want it that way. The aircraft also has to be affordable, both in terms of the purchase price for the armed forces and the sales price for export.
If it's more expensive than an F-35/J-35, you've already lost the export market.
The more complex the engine is, the more expensive it is to manufacture and maintain.
Turkey does not have a yearly military budget of 800-900 billion dollars like the US, which develops weapon systems/engines without compromise if it has to.
Therefore, Turkey must first develop an engine that surpasses the upper performance class, in this case the F-110/EJ200.
The dimensions of the F-110 in TAI KAAN are the fixed benchmark, so you can't just change the engine at will, but there are limits set by the size of the F-110.
The F-110 engine has 3 main fans and 9 compressors as well as a low pressure turbine and a high pressure turbine.
One could reduce one of the main fans and one compressor and use 2 low- and high-pressure turbines instead.
The result is an engine with significantly fewer mechanically moving parts. The complexity of the engine is lower, as is the manufacturing and maintenance, and it is still slightly more powerful than an F-110/EJ200. You can still incorporate modern approaches like VCT & Co.
If you then have variable air intakes in the TAI KAAN, you can also trigger a RAM effect and get additional thrust, on average up to 10% more thrust is possible, e.g. for supercruise without afterburner or better thrust in the subsonic range.

 

[Turkic]

Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line just because you or I want it that way.

Actually the needed amount of money do not drastically increase if you're not developing an F-135. It's roughly 3 to 6 billion dollars at countries with high engineering costs. I'm not pointing the number but the fact that it's not much different to develop a 30k lb engine than a 36k lb engine in terms of costs. Spending half a billion more to develop a high-end engine sounds logicful since they're among the most important defence industry products. Also every million you invest in turbofan engines provides you a good increase in performance (if you'll be able to improve it more by spending more). To me, they're price/performance products of defence industry at development stage.

All these I say are outcomes of my basic researches and my thoughts. I'm not a master on this topic. So I might be wrong.

 

[Huelague]

We have an additional military budget of $20 billion for such projects.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line

No one is saying that an absolutely high end engine is to be produced. What KAAN will have is an engine that is similar to an F-119. Probably with few more extras like CMC parts in certain hot sections.

If it's more expensive than an F-35/J-35, you've already lost the export market.

Not really. There are loads of countries that can’t have access to F35. Also we know the performance of Chinese tech. In UCAV scene many countries are switching from Chinese to Turkish. Plus all the countries that already use and are partners with Turkiye, will want to carry on, as weapons business is also based on partnership.

Turkey must first develop an engine that surpasses the upper performance class, in this case the F-110/EJ200.

No! Türkiye will produce an engine that is commensurate with KAAN and its intended performance. It has to have 22000-26000lbf dry thrust and 34000-38000lbf wet thrust. Anything less means the fighter is compromised.

The dimensions of the F-110 in TAI KAAN are the fixed benchmark, so you can't just change the engine at will, but there are limits set by the size of the F-110.
The F-110 engine has 3 main fans and 9 compressors as well as a low pressure turbine and a high pressure turbine.

Not really. As long as the engine compartment of KAAN can house the engine, any size will do.
The number of stages of turbines are there for a reason. But not for what you are mentioning. Generally with a larger fan stage, to be able to drive this large fan more efficiently, a second LP turbine stage is introduced. Because the LP turbine drives the LP fans. But for an engine like KAAN’s, where you don’t have a large fan, it is not necessary to have a second LP turbine stage.
HP Turbine stage drives the HP compressor stages. In most engines a single stage of HP turbine is efficient enough to meet the demands.
These are calculated according to the diameter of the particular stages and the flow speed of the air being forced through them.

The result is an engine with significantly fewer mechanically moving parts. The complexity of the engine is lower, as is the manufacturing and maintenance, and it is still slightly more powerful than an F-110/EJ200

The engine we are trying to manufacture is more complex and intricate than a F110 or EJ200. (Besides EJ200 has too low a thrust for KAAN. It is not correct to even mention it. )
KAAN’s engine has to be complex and intricate. Because this engine has to be stealthy and with very low IR signature.

If you then have variable air intakes in the TAI KAAN

Variable air intakes, used as in f14 and f15 are there to regulate air flow in to the fan section, keeping the speed of flow at subsonic levels. Not for augmenting thrust.
This technology is used in Typhoon too. This is to improve the performance of the plane at high angle of attack at transonic speeds..

 

[uçuyorum]

No one is saying that an absolutely high end engine is to be produced. What KAAN will have is an engine that is similar to an F-119. Probably with few more extras like CMC parts in certain hot sections.


Not really. There are loads of countries that can’t have access to F35. Also we know the performance of Chinese tech. In UCAV scene many countries are switching from Chinese to Turkish. Plus all the countries that already use and are partners with Turkiye, will want to carry on, as weapons business is also a based on partnership.


No! Türkiye will produce an engine that is commensurate with KAAN and its intended performance. It has to have 22000-26000lbf dry thrust and 34000-38000lbf wet thrust. Anything less means the fighter is compromised.

Not really. As long as the engine compartment of KAAN can house the engine, any size will do.
The number of stages of turbines are there for a reason. But not for what you are mentioning. Generally with a larger fan stage, to be able to drive this large fan more efficiently, a second LP turbine stage is introduced. Because the LP turbine drives the LP fans. But for an engine like KAAN’s, where you don’t have a large fan, it is not necessary to have a second LP turbine stage.
HP Turbine stage drives the HP compressor stages. In most engines a single stage of HP turbine is efficient enough to meet the demands.
These are calculated according to the diameter of the particular stages and the flow speed of the air being forced through them.

The engine we are trying to manufacture is more complex and intricate than a F110 or EJ200. (Besides EJ200 has too low a thrust for KAAN. It is not correct to even mention it. )
KAAN’s engine has to be complex and intricate. Because this engine has to be stealthy and with very low IR signature.


Variable air intakes, used as in f14 and f15 are there to regulate air flow in to the fan section, keeping the speed of flow at subsonic levels. Not for augmenting thrust.
This technology is used in Typhoon too. This is to improve the performance of the plane at high angle of attack at transonic speeds..

Difficult to add to stealth s ducts though, isnt it