TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Scott Summers]

If we can produce these 4 things independantly, we will become a worldpower.

- chips
- semiconductors
- turbofan engines
- nuclaer energy

 

[Yasar_TR]

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

Tempest is supposed to be with a 19m length and 13.5m wing span.
That is slightly shorter than KAAN. But overall it is almost a similar size plane to KAAN. (KAAN is a big plane too)
The engines to power this plane are 2 x ~35000lbf class engines. So they are at around the same thrust level as what KAAN needs.
But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

To be part of Tempest program means both the engine and the plane itself. But firstly, we need to be invited in. As far as I know that has not happened. So we are discussing something that may be inconsequential anyway.

BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

 

[hugh]

But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

 

[uçuyorum]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

If you check the initial specs of the Tempest engine it has a system embedded inside the engine core to develop potentially up to 1MegaWatt of electrical output.

Quote:

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

Unquote.

 

[blackjack]

3rd stream cycle, so I guess the US and Russia are not the only 2 countries now developing a similar engine.

 

[boredaf]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?

 

[TheInsider]

There won't be a Tempest before 2040. There is no point to talk about a fighter on the paper. We should first see how the project unfolds.

 

[TheInsider]

Please tell me when the tender was held and who won it. What is TRMotor's role in this? TEI will develop it, but will TRMotor own the IP (intellectual property) rights? What approach will be followed?

There are two different tenders. Development tender and production tender. TRMotor won the first one and IP rights will be owned by TRMotor. Both TRMotor and TEI(Majority shares) are owned by TUSAS so TUSAS is developing its own engine for its own product. TEI is a critical technology provider and production partner. It is done this way so that Americans don't own %46 of the engine through their shares in TEI. TRMotor is a design bureau. The design team includes TEI, TRMotor and Ivchenko Progress.
Currently, the team is pushing really hard to put the first prototype of the engine on the bench before 2026 ends. Ambitious goals somewhat became a norm for the Turkish defense industry even if you miss the date it pushes people to work hard and shorten the overall process. I think we might see a slight delay of 3-6 months.


Production might involve a lot of different companies like Alp Aviation, Kale Jet Engines etc. Work packages will be distributed to a lot of different companies. TEI is expected to get the lion's share and the hardest parts. TRMotor might also invest in some production capability. Maybe an assembly line.

The engine will produce a wet thrust of 36000-38000 lbf. It will be lighter than 2000kg.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

 

[TheInsider]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

3 I don't want to tell this here but Turkiye is in a backdoor diplomacy process with the Chinese through Pakistan for a backup plan. If the US refuses to supply F110 Turkiye wants to secure Chinese engines at least for Pakistan but Turkiye also evaluates a doomsday scenario in which the US senate completely blocks F110 delivery to Turkiye. China also wants to export its own engines. Turkiye sees no such possibility for F404 at least for the trainer version of Hurjet.

I highly doubt that Pakistan is getting anything other than an assembly line and even that is doubtful because even structural part production and assembly of the fighter involves advanced processes. Production and assembly of JF-17 and Kaan are inherently different.

Turkiye is at a crossroads with the US in nearly everything. Either the US will come to our terms and we will support the US in the era of great power competition (albeit subtly) or the US will continue at the same route and we will take a third-way approach and support neither side and conduct critical business with all players when it is beneficial.

 

[boredaf]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

If we allow them to build anything critical there, this project is being led by utter morons, sums up my thoughts, albeit in a harsh language. I said it before and I'll say it again, if it were up to me, I wouldn't even sell Kaan to them, let alone giving them a production line.

Their economy, as you rightly pointed out, is on on the verge of collapsing for some time now. They are increasingly getting closer to China and their situation is not going to get any better as climate change starts hitting harder as they are right in the middle of one of the regions that are going to get hit the hardest without a doubt. They are not going to deny China a look under the hood if they ask for it, not when so many of their projects depend on them.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

How realistic is it if the indigenous engine has this configuration it is less complex than the F-110 129, it has less mechanical parts and therefore a bit more power.

It has 1 less fan and compressor and 1 more high and low pressure turbine to distribute the load more evenly.

 

[TheInsider]

How realistic is it if the indigenous engine has this configuration it is less complex than the F-110 129, it has less mechanical parts and therefore a bit more power.

View attachment 73224

Who did this? This is different from what I expect from TF-35000. For example, I expect a bypass ratio of around 0.7. 0.8 to 1.2 is too high. TF-35000 won't have a thrust lower than 36000 lbf ( It will have a wet thrust somewhere between 160 to 170 kN/36000 to 38000 lbf)

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Who did this? This is different from what I expect from TF-35000. For example, I expect a bypass ratio of around 0.7. 0.8 to 1.2 is too high. TF-35000 won't have a thrust lower than 36000 lbf ( It will have a wet thrust somewhere between 160 to 170 kN/36000 to 38000 lbf)

This is just a theory of mine, I just wanted to make the engine less complex as Revision 1.
TAI KAAN will probably be a bit smaller and more delicate anyway, between 6-8% reduction is mentioned, and therefore also lighter.
So 90kn dry and 150kn wet is a sweet spot, isn't it?

You also have to be realistic, Turkey simply can't produce an absolute high-end Engine at the moment, so moderate values may be what Turkey can really achieve.

 

[KAAN]

Tolga Özbek is a serious person.

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

 

[hugh]

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

He says the second prototype(P1) will fly after June, and the third(P2) prototype will fly before the end of the year.

 

[TheInsider]

This is just a theory of mine, I just wanted to make the engine less complex as Revision 1.
TAI KAAN will probably be a bit smaller and more delicate anyway, between 6-8% reduction is mentioned, and therefore also lighter.
So 90kn dry and 150kn wet is a sweet spot, isn't it?

You also have to be realistic, Turkey simply can't produce an absolute high-end Engine at the moment, so moderate values may be what Turkey can really achieve.

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

 

[Oublious]

We have confirmation that the images shared as a new prototype belong to GTU-0.

So we are are on a level we can upgrade our F16 with certain confident, from radar to sensor we are ob block70 level.

 

[Huelague]

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

If we can produce YF120-like engine, it would be fantastic.