TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[uçuyorum]

I hope you understand what I’m trying to say to you. You can, of course, predict exactly what can or will happen in the future. If you have all the necessary informations.
Don’t let us go further and let’s wait what will happen.

That's not even physically possible due to heisenberg uncertainty principle but i digress

 

[hugh]

You can, of course, predict exactly what can or will happen in the future. If you have all the necessary informations.

This is impossible for humans. We can neither know all the initial conditions of the problem nor have the necessary compute to calculate a solution(future event). And everything else is just a guess.

He cannot precisely know or predict the future milestones of TF6000, let alone the TF35000.

 

[TheInsider]

These last few posts and the timeline given about KAAN are like a poker table bidding.
First it was Mr Kotil who gave us 2028 as the first indigenous KAAN engine to fly the plane.
Tusas MD Demiroglu said that in first half of 2030 KAAN will fly with completely indigenous engines.
Then Current SSB recently said 2030 is the date.
Now our members are increasing the bidding war to 2031-2032-2033-2034.

First we need to see a demonstrator fired. Then a prototype that can fly the KAAN.
We don’t know yet, what sort of difficulties we will be confronted with in the days and years to come.
Even after the engines fly the first time, there may be many new obstacles we need to overcome.
Do we know if we have solved the cooling of the extensively complex, heat generating avionics present in a stealth plane? Have we managed to cool the engine effectively so that IR signature is minimised and dispersed?

The F22 has a special system with which it cools down the large avionic heat generation. It uses a totally integrated liquid based environmental control system (ECS) that provides thermal conditioning throughout the flight envelope for the pilot and the avionics. It uses a liquid cooling system rather than air as it gives better and more positive results. It uses the plane’s fuel to cool down the heated refrigerant as it cycles through the system.

The engine’s heat signature is masked through specially designed air ducts that cools the air around the engine with a totally closed loop operation system of refrigerant and heat exchanger.

These are just some of the few new technologies that Tusas has to implement and test on a physical engine and plane.
Just check out some of the ground breaking innovations F22 has, in below article.

It is no small feat to get a stealth plane up and flying with all the bells and whistles. It may take time to harmonise everything. But to know when all will be complete, is an open ended string. Let us wait and see and believe in what the people who know what they are doing, in stead of theorising without any foundation.

F-22 Flight Critical Systems

www.globalsecurity.org

There is no increase in the bid. The current timeline of the national engine envisions the engine integration in 2029 followed by flight tests and the delivery of the first KAAN with the national engine in 2032. There is also no change for the delivery date of Kaan with F110. It is still the end of 2028 early 2029.

You will hear more about TF-35000 this year. The design will be frozen this year. Some parts of the prototype are in production. I expect to see a realistic mockup in IDEF but we will see. The first ignition will happen in 2026.

 

[2033]

There is no increase in the bid. The current timeline of the national engine envisions the engine integration in 2029 followed by flight tests and the delivery of the first KAAN with the national engine in 2032. There is also no change for the delivery date of Kaan with F110. It is still the end of 2028 early 2029.

You will hear more about TF-35000 this year. The design will be frozen this year. Some parts of the prototype are in production. I expect to see a realistic mockup in IDEF but we will see. The first ignition will happen in 2026.

Please tell me when the tender was held and who won it. What is TRMotor's role in this? TEI will develop it, but will TRMotor own the IP (intellectual property) rights? What approach will be followed?

 

[Turkic]

Please tell me when the tender was held and who won it. What is TRMotor's role in this? TEI will develop it, but will TRMotor own the IP (intellectual property) rights? What approach will be followed?

TRMotor won the first tender. I don't recall a final decision from the second tender. TEI and TRMotor are working together and it was told Ivchenko was working with them. Kale has %51 of shares of TAEC. Which is their engine corporation with Rolls Royce. It was stated before that TEI TRMotor and Kale could develop one together or each seperate.

Once I asked a TAI engineer about this tender and he told me "one tender goes another comes, things change fast.".

Probably TEI TRMotor are working on one with help of Ivchenko Progress and Kale is working on another along with Rolls Royce.

I'm thinking of a partnership with UK. Imo, Kaan and GCAP/Tempest could use the same engine which both UK and Turkiye has property rights. Not going to happen tho. Maybe for next-gen Kaan or if what 6th gen jet we'll produce.

Btw, what happened to TAEC's website ? There was one right ?

 

[Saithan]

I agree. It's the sensible thing to do politically. But if US won't supply F-35, why would they allow KAAN to be supplied with a US engine?

I do not think that it will be a problem if the KAAN version with F404 engine is sold to KSA. I mean it's old tech.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I do not think that it will be a problem if the KAAN version with F404 engine is sold to KSA. I mean it's old tech.

F110*. The F404 doesn’t have enough power to propel Kaan.

 

[Spitfire9]

Probably TEI TRMotor are working on one with help of Ivchenko Progress and Kale is working on another along with Rolls Royce.

I'm thinking of a partnership with UK. Imo, Kaan and GCAP/Tempest could use the same engine which both UK and Turkiye has property rights. Not going to happen tho. Maybe for next-gen Kaan or if what 6th gen jet we'll produce.

I think the engine for the Tempest may turn out to produce much more power than is needed by the KAAN.

In any event I guess that RR have been working on a design for 10+ years, given that the UK revealed its Tempest project at the Farnborough air show in 2018. With Japanese and Italian companies also involved, workshare and areas of responsibility in the engine design are mapped out.

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I agree. It's the sensible thing to do politically. But if US won't supply F-35, why would they allow KAAN to be supplied with a US engine?

For one simple reason: The Americans cannot stop the KAAN project.
In fact, I am very sure that they know exactly when the Turkish engine will be ready and what specifications it will have.
From the American point of view, a refusal by the US government to export F-110s would be useless and completely counterproductive.
Turkey would be doing several things at once.

1. end the joint venture with TEI and GE, dissolve TEI in its current form, at least in this form. The Americans would then be completely out of the Turkish defence industry as far as engines and other cooperations are concerned.

2) Turkey would knock on the door of Russia/China to get a suitable engine for the prototype and for the first blocks, and the Russians or Chinese would even be prepared to supply them, including a technology transfer.
Because they know very well that Turkey has a geopolitical and strategic value, and Turkey as a NATO member becomes even more uncontrollable.
It would only be a member on paper, because the relationship between NATO and Turkey is already very ambivalent and fragile, and the damage would be almost irreversible. Domestically, this would be the ammunition Erdogan needs to further unite the population and consolidate his position: "They don't want us, they don't accept us and they don't trust us.
It would even give him a massive political boost, because the national consciousness in Turkey ticks in a completely different way to anywhere else in the world. In contrast to Europe, the Americans know that you don't divide the country by attacking it too much politically and economically, but that all parties and citizens voluntarily or involuntarily pull together - even parties like the DEM would have to bow to this social pressure.

3) Turkey would even consider kicking a large part of the Americans out of Incirlik and other bases completely.

4) Turkey will then have no inhibitions about buying complete weapons systems from non-NATO countries, e.g. aircraft for the navy, where both the US and Turkey hope to somehow solve the F-35 <-> S-400 problem in a face-saving way for both sides.

So the Americans lose more than they gain by refusing. The indigenous engine will come either way, whether in 8, 10 or 12 years, it doesn't help them to destroy important relationships if they can't change anything.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

 

[hugh]

For one simple reason: The Americans cannot stop the KAAN project.
In fact, I am very sure that they know exactly when the Turkish engine will be ready and what specifications it will have.
From the American point of view, a refusal by the US government to export F-110s would be useless and completely counterproductive.
Turkey would be doing several things at once.

1. end the joint venture with TEI and GE, dissolve TEI in its current form, at least in this form. The Americans would then be completely out of the Turkish defence industry as far as engines and other cooperations are concerned.

2) Turkey would knock on the door of Russia/China to get a suitable engine for the prototype and for the first blocks, and the Russians or Chinese would even be prepared to supply them, including a technology transfer.
Because they know very well that Turkey has a geopolitical and strategic value, and Turkey as a NATO member becomes even more uncontrollable.
It would only be a member on paper, because the relationship between NATO and Turkey is already very ambivalent and fragile, and the damage would be almost irreversible. Domestically, this would be the ammunition Erdogan needs to further unite the population and consolidate his position: "They don't want us, they don't accept us and they don't trust us.
It would even give him a massive political boost, because the national consciousness in Turkey ticks in a completely different way to anywhere else in the world. In contrast to Europe, the Americans know that you don't divide the country by attacking it too much politically and economically, but that all parties and citizens voluntarily or involuntarily pull together - even parties like the DEM would have to bow to this social pressure.

3) Turkey would even consider kicking a large part of the Americans out of Incirlik and other bases completely.

4) Turkey will then have no inhibitions about buying complete weapons systems from non-NATO countries, e.g. aircraft for the navy, where both the US and Turkey hope to somehow solve the F-35 <-> S-400 problem in a face-saving way for both sides.

So the Americans lose more than they gain by refusing. The indigenous engine will come either way, whether in 8, 10 or 12 years, it doesn't help them to destroy important relationships if they can't change anything.

All the rationale you cited was there and more apparent when we were a Tier 3 partner of F35 and a major buyer of the aircraft. And yet that didn't stop the Americans kick our butt from the program. What was our response? Did we use a smidgen of the leverages you said above? At the end we were at begging point to buy 4th gen F16s.

We should also take the state of our economy and its dependence on western ecosystem into considerication when making these grandiose claims. We're not earning our bread from selling to Chinese or the Russian. You severe your ties with the west, you have no alternative to fill the void. It would wreck your economy beyond what you can imagine and any opposition party would win the ensuing early elections against Erdogan.

 

[Turkic]

I think the engine for the Tempest may turn out to produce much more power than is needed by the KAAN.

In any event I guess that RR have been working on a design for 10+ years, given that the UK revealed its Tempest project at the Farnborough air show in 2018. With Japanese and Italian companies also involved, workshare and areas of responsibility in the engine design are mapped out.

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

My perspection was aiming to use the same engine in both countries 6th gen fighters. Not Kaan mainly. Our next fighter will need more power as Tempest. And about the reason why would they let us involve to the engine project; money is the answer. Turkiye could provide up to few billions to the project and we can earn some of it back by producing some parts. We all know the UK has problems to fund projects&army. It's a win-win if their political goals don't oppose ours. I don't expect a political issue between the two countries in the next decade. Even closer ties may occur.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

All the rationale you cited was there and more apparent when we were a Tier 3 partner of F35 and a major buyer of the aircraft. And yet that didn't stop the Americans kick our butt from the program. What was our response? Did we use a smidgen of the leverages you said above? At the end we were at begging point to buy 4th gen F16s.

We should also take the state of our economy and its dependence on western ecosystem into considerication when making these grandiose claims. We're not earning our bread from selling to Chinese or the Russian. You severe your ties with the west, you have no alternative to fill the void. It would wreck your economy beyond what you can imagine and any opposition party would win the ensuing early elections against Erdogan.

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey? I say none worth mentioning because both Turkey with the S-400 and the U.S. with the non-delivery of the F-35 could walk this line without significant damage to either side.
Both sides had to go this way (Turkey not getting air defense systems from the US or EU) to save face (both sides don't want to show weakness).
Since Turkey is not in an active war at the moment, and you have to be honest about that, the fleet of F-16s with Özgur II upgrades + the current drones is completely sufficient until 2030.
If you add TAI KAAN, Hürjet incl. Naval Version and the new stealth drones later.
A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.
I say you have to look at the big picture, in my opinion you got more than you lost. The F-35 is ultimately just a very modern Trojan, where the danger is extremely high that it can be shut down by remote control if it is used against American interests, e.g. conflict with Israel.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Addendum/supplement:
I even maintain that they have gone a few steps further in their considerations. They can easily use the 40 F-16 Block 70 + 40 Eurofighters against Russia and most countries in the Middle East if they have to. They can easily send them into some pointless NATO maneuvers on foreign soil/bases, that's their technology last, espionage is impossible here. The F-16 Özgur, TAI KAAN stay at home with their Turkish software and hardware and don't have to participate in NATO maneuvers.

 

[hugh]

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey?

I could name many, but that would be beside the point. The point is that you said we have this and that leverage to use and come out on top in the bilaterals but that was not what happened. And, in my opinion, it wouldn't be otherwise in the near future.

A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.

You can be sure that the government had no forecast regarding our expulsion from JSF. And it's not like we've become wary of F35's pitfalls and decided not to be involved. To this day we are doing our best to convince the US to sell us F35s. What does that tell you?

To add: We got no nuclear tech from Russians. The powerplant is entirely owned by Russians and they will manage it completely, we have no involvement other than some of the menial construction workload.

Russian tourism has nothing to do with F35 or S400. And can someone point me to a source, showing what exactly did we get from Russia in terms of ToT of S400?

 

[Saithan]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1880626644341416027

News further confirmation as website of tusas not updated.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

When I mentioned about underestimating and belittling, it wasn’t directed to @Spitfire9 ’s comments directly. But in a round about way, where it was an answer, in case his questions were understood as being belittling.

Of course, Turkiye doesn’t have the gas turbine expertise that RR have. But if you look at the Japanese and Italians; Neither do they. Not many countries in the world have developed expertise in jet engines.
Italians have Avio Aero, which is a GE company.
Japanese have IHI and Mitsubishi both are subcontractors of GE, P&W and RR, with the exception that the Japanese have extensive access to technologies including the hot section of the engines.

just to add as a side note:
Both Italians and Japanese can’t develop and produce military engine technologies without the consent and participation of UK and US companies. It has to do with WW2.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Don't worry about exports to the European region, my friends. Even if bilateral relations are perfect, TR-EU trade is doomed to weaken. The reason is the structural weaknesses in the EU's core economies. In fact, bilateral relations are not getting any better. On the contrary, we see new lows in that regard every year. I expect even greater nonsense from them, especially regarding bilateral trade. We must prepare as if the EU were wiped off the face of the earth!

We must prepare for this event technically and politically. On the technical side, first we must close our energy gap at all costs. Since food is also a form of energy, it is imperative to revolutionize our agricultural production. Also we must resolve the issue of military engines as soon as possible and focus on the chip issue. This all kind of military engines issue has become very annoying for me.

Since what needs to be done on the political side is very broad, it should be addressed in another forum topic.