TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Saithan]

I agree. It's the sensible thing to do politically. But if US won't supply F-35, why would they allow KAAN to be supplied with a US engine?

I do not think that it will be a problem if the KAAN version with F404 engine is sold to KSA. I mean it's old tech.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I do not think that it will be a problem if the KAAN version with F404 engine is sold to KSA. I mean it's old tech.

F110*. The F404 doesn’t have enough power to propel Kaan.

 

[Spitfire9]

Probably TEI TRMotor are working on one with help of Ivchenko Progress and Kale is working on another along with Rolls Royce.

I'm thinking of a partnership with UK. Imo, Kaan and GCAP/Tempest could use the same engine which both UK and Turkiye has property rights. Not going to happen tho. Maybe for next-gen Kaan or if what 6th gen jet we'll produce.

I think the engine for the Tempest may turn out to produce much more power than is needed by the KAAN.

In any event I guess that RR have been working on a design for 10+ years, given that the UK revealed its Tempest project at the Farnborough air show in 2018. With Japanese and Italian companies also involved, workshare and areas of responsibility in the engine design are mapped out.

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I agree. It's the sensible thing to do politically. But if US won't supply F-35, why would they allow KAAN to be supplied with a US engine?

For one simple reason: The Americans cannot stop the KAAN project.
In fact, I am very sure that they know exactly when the Turkish engine will be ready and what specifications it will have.
From the American point of view, a refusal by the US government to export F-110s would be useless and completely counterproductive.
Turkey would be doing several things at once.

1. end the joint venture with TEI and GE, dissolve TEI in its current form, at least in this form. The Americans would then be completely out of the Turkish defence industry as far as engines and other cooperations are concerned.

2) Turkey would knock on the door of Russia/China to get a suitable engine for the prototype and for the first blocks, and the Russians or Chinese would even be prepared to supply them, including a technology transfer.
Because they know very well that Turkey has a geopolitical and strategic value, and Turkey as a NATO member becomes even more uncontrollable.
It would only be a member on paper, because the relationship between NATO and Turkey is already very ambivalent and fragile, and the damage would be almost irreversible. Domestically, this would be the ammunition Erdogan needs to further unite the population and consolidate his position: "They don't want us, they don't accept us and they don't trust us.
It would even give him a massive political boost, because the national consciousness in Turkey ticks in a completely different way to anywhere else in the world. In contrast to Europe, the Americans know that you don't divide the country by attacking it too much politically and economically, but that all parties and citizens voluntarily or involuntarily pull together - even parties like the DEM would have to bow to this social pressure.

3) Turkey would even consider kicking a large part of the Americans out of Incirlik and other bases completely.

4) Turkey will then have no inhibitions about buying complete weapons systems from non-NATO countries, e.g. aircraft for the navy, where both the US and Turkey hope to somehow solve the F-35 <-> S-400 problem in a face-saving way for both sides.

So the Americans lose more than they gain by refusing. The indigenous engine will come either way, whether in 8, 10 or 12 years, it doesn't help them to destroy important relationships if they can't change anything.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

 

[hugh]

For one simple reason: The Americans cannot stop the KAAN project.
In fact, I am very sure that they know exactly when the Turkish engine will be ready and what specifications it will have.
From the American point of view, a refusal by the US government to export F-110s would be useless and completely counterproductive.
Turkey would be doing several things at once.

1. end the joint venture with TEI and GE, dissolve TEI in its current form, at least in this form. The Americans would then be completely out of the Turkish defence industry as far as engines and other cooperations are concerned.

2) Turkey would knock on the door of Russia/China to get a suitable engine for the prototype and for the first blocks, and the Russians or Chinese would even be prepared to supply them, including a technology transfer.
Because they know very well that Turkey has a geopolitical and strategic value, and Turkey as a NATO member becomes even more uncontrollable.
It would only be a member on paper, because the relationship between NATO and Turkey is already very ambivalent and fragile, and the damage would be almost irreversible. Domestically, this would be the ammunition Erdogan needs to further unite the population and consolidate his position: "They don't want us, they don't accept us and they don't trust us.
It would even give him a massive political boost, because the national consciousness in Turkey ticks in a completely different way to anywhere else in the world. In contrast to Europe, the Americans know that you don't divide the country by attacking it too much politically and economically, but that all parties and citizens voluntarily or involuntarily pull together - even parties like the DEM would have to bow to this social pressure.

3) Turkey would even consider kicking a large part of the Americans out of Incirlik and other bases completely.

4) Turkey will then have no inhibitions about buying complete weapons systems from non-NATO countries, e.g. aircraft for the navy, where both the US and Turkey hope to somehow solve the F-35 <-> S-400 problem in a face-saving way for both sides.

So the Americans lose more than they gain by refusing. The indigenous engine will come either way, whether in 8, 10 or 12 years, it doesn't help them to destroy important relationships if they can't change anything.

All the rationale you cited was there and more apparent when we were a Tier 3 partner of F35 and a major buyer of the aircraft. And yet that didn't stop the Americans kick our butt from the program. What was our response? Did we use a smidgen of the leverages you said above? At the end we were at begging point to buy 4th gen F16s.

We should also take the state of our economy and its dependence on western ecosystem into considerication when making these grandiose claims. We're not earning our bread from selling to Chinese or the Russian. You severe your ties with the west, you have no alternative to fill the void. It would wreck your economy beyond what you can imagine and any opposition party would win the ensuing early elections against Erdogan.

 

[Turkic]

I think the engine for the Tempest may turn out to produce much more power than is needed by the KAAN.

In any event I guess that RR have been working on a design for 10+ years, given that the UK revealed its Tempest project at the Farnborough air show in 2018. With Japanese and Italian companies also involved, workshare and areas of responsibility in the engine design are mapped out.

Turkiye has little or no technology to contribute that does not already exist in the engine consortium, so what grounds would there be for Turkish involvement in the Tempest engine consortium?

My perspection was aiming to use the same engine in both countries 6th gen fighters. Not Kaan mainly. Our next fighter will need more power as Tempest. And about the reason why would they let us involve to the engine project; money is the answer. Turkiye could provide up to few billions to the project and we can earn some of it back by producing some parts. We all know the UK has problems to fund projects&army. It's a win-win if their political goals don't oppose ours. I don't expect a political issue between the two countries in the next decade. Even closer ties may occur.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

All the rationale you cited was there and more apparent when we were a Tier 3 partner of F35 and a major buyer of the aircraft. And yet that didn't stop the Americans kick our butt from the program. What was our response? Did we use a smidgen of the leverages you said above? At the end we were at begging point to buy 4th gen F16s.

We should also take the state of our economy and its dependence on western ecosystem into considerication when making these grandiose claims. We're not earning our bread from selling to Chinese or the Russian. You severe your ties with the west, you have no alternative to fill the void. It would wreck your economy beyond what you can imagine and any opposition party would win the ensuing early elections against Erdogan.

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey? I say none worth mentioning because both Turkey with the S-400 and the U.S. with the non-delivery of the F-35 could walk this line without significant damage to either side.
Both sides had to go this way (Turkey not getting air defense systems from the US or EU) to save face (both sides don't want to show weakness).
Since Turkey is not in an active war at the moment, and you have to be honest about that, the fleet of F-16s with Özgur II upgrades + the current drones is completely sufficient until 2030.
If you add TAI KAAN, Hürjet incl. Naval Version and the new stealth drones later.
A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.
I say you have to look at the big picture, in my opinion you got more than you lost. The F-35 is ultimately just a very modern Trojan, where the danger is extremely high that it can be shut down by remote control if it is used against American interests, e.g. conflict with Israel.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Addendum/supplement:
I even maintain that they have gone a few steps further in their considerations. They can easily use the 40 F-16 Block 70 + 40 Eurofighters against Russia and most countries in the Middle East if they have to. They can easily send them into some pointless NATO maneuvers on foreign soil/bases, that's their technology last, espionage is impossible here. The F-16 Özgur, TAI KAAN stay at home with their Turkish software and hardware and don't have to participate in NATO maneuvers.

 

[hugh]

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey?

I could name many, but that would be beside the point. The point is that you said we have this and that leverage to use and come out on top in the bilaterals but that was not what happened. And, in my opinion, it wouldn't be otherwise in the near future.

A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.

You can be sure that the government had no forecast regarding our expulsion from JSF. And it's not like we've become wary of F35's pitfalls and decided not to be involved. To this day we are doing our best to convince the US to sell us F35s. What does that tell you?

To add: We got no nuclear tech from Russians. The powerplant is entirely owned by Russians and they will manage it completely, we have no involvement other than some of the menial construction workload.

Russian tourism has nothing to do with F35 or S400. And can someone point me to a source, showing what exactly did we get from Russia in terms of ToT of S400?

 

[Saithan]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1880626644341416027

News further confirmation as website of tusas not updated.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

When I mentioned about underestimating and belittling, it wasn’t directed to @Spitfire9 ’s comments directly. But in a round about way, where it was an answer, in case his questions were understood as being belittling.

Of course, Turkiye doesn’t have the gas turbine expertise that RR have. But if you look at the Japanese and Italians; Neither do they. Not many countries in the world have developed expertise in jet engines.
Italians have Avio Aero, which is a GE company.
Japanese have IHI and Mitsubishi both are subcontractors of GE, P&W and RR, with the exception that the Japanese have extensive access to technologies including the hot section of the engines.

just to add as a side note:
Both Italians and Japanese can’t develop and produce military engine technologies without the consent and participation of UK and US companies. It has to do with WW2.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Don't worry about exports to the European region, my friends. Even if bilateral relations are perfect, TR-EU trade is doomed to weaken. The reason is the structural weaknesses in the EU's core economies. In fact, bilateral relations are not getting any better. On the contrary, we see new lows in that regard every year. I expect even greater nonsense from them, especially regarding bilateral trade. We must prepare as if the EU were wiped off the face of the earth!

We must prepare for this event technically and politically. On the technical side, first we must close our energy gap at all costs. Since food is also a form of energy, it is imperative to revolutionize our agricultural production. Also we must resolve the issue of military engines as soon as possible and focus on the chip issue. This all kind of military engines issue has become very annoying for me.

Since what needs to be done on the political side is very broad, it should be addressed in another forum topic.

 

[Scott Summers]

If we can produce these 4 things independantly, we will become a worldpower.

- chips
- semiconductors
- turbofan engines
- nuclaer energy

 

[Yasar_TR]

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

Tempest is supposed to be with a 19m length and 13.5m wing span.
That is slightly shorter than KAAN. But overall it is almost a similar size plane to KAAN. (KAAN is a big plane too)
The engines to power this plane are 2 x ~35000lbf class engines. So they are at around the same thrust level as what KAAN needs.
But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

To be part of Tempest program means both the engine and the plane itself. But firstly, we need to be invited in. As far as I know that has not happened. So we are discussing something that may be inconsequential anyway.

BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

 

[hugh]

But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

 

[uçuyorum]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

If you check the initial specs of the Tempest engine it has a system embedded inside the engine core to develop potentially up to 1MegaWatt of electrical output.

Quote:

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

Unquote.