TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[IC3M@N FX]

All the rationale you cited was there and more apparent when we were a Tier 3 partner of F35 and a major buyer of the aircraft. And yet that didn't stop the Americans kick our butt from the program. What was our response? Did we use a smidgen of the leverages you said above? At the end we were at begging point to buy 4th gen F16s.

We should also take the state of our economy and its dependence on western ecosystem into considerication when making these grandiose claims. We're not earning our bread from selling to Chinese or the Russian. You severe your ties with the west, you have no alternative to fill the void. It would wreck your economy beyond what you can imagine and any opposition party would win the ensuing early elections against Erdogan.

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey? I say none worth mentioning because both Turkey with the S-400 and the U.S. with the non-delivery of the F-35 could walk this line without significant damage to either side.
Both sides had to go this way (Turkey not getting air defense systems from the US or EU) to save face (both sides don't want to show weakness).
Since Turkey is not in an active war at the moment, and you have to be honest about that, the fleet of F-16s with Özgur II upgrades + the current drones is completely sufficient until 2030.
If you add TAI KAAN, Hürjet incl. Naval Version and the new stealth drones later.
A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.
I say you have to look at the big picture, in my opinion you got more than you lost. The F-35 is ultimately just a very modern Trojan, where the danger is extremely high that it can be shut down by remote control if it is used against American interests, e.g. conflict with Israel.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Addendum/supplement:
I even maintain that they have gone a few steps further in their considerations. They can easily use the 40 F-16 Block 70 + 40 Eurofighters against Russia and most countries in the Middle East if they have to. They can easily send them into some pointless NATO maneuvers on foreign soil/bases, that's their technology last, espionage is impossible here. The F-16 Özgur, TAI KAAN stay at home with their Turkish software and hardware and don't have to participate in NATO maneuvers.

 

[hugh]

Then I ask you, what damage has the F-35 exclusion really caused that it is irreversible for Turkey?

I could name many, but that would be beside the point. The point is that you said we have this and that leverage to use and come out on top in the bilaterals but that was not what happened. And, in my opinion, it wouldn't be otherwise in the near future.

A political decision is always carefully weighed against the cards you have and the cards you will soon have. Here the access to air defense systems including technology transfer active/passive was probably more critical, including the benefits of the Russian relationship e.g. Russian tourism, Turkish <-> Russian business in general, and the energy policy in gas & nuclear technology without too strong restrictions as the Western states would expect probably bigger than having a few F-35 in Warehouse and the production of some parts at TAI as business.

You can be sure that the government had no forecast regarding our expulsion from JSF. And it's not like we've become wary of F35's pitfalls and decided not to be involved. To this day we are doing our best to convince the US to sell us F35s. What does that tell you?

To add: We got no nuclear tech from Russians. The powerplant is entirely owned by Russians and they will manage it completely, we have no involvement other than some of the menial construction workload.

Russian tourism has nothing to do with F35 or S400. And can someone point me to a source, showing what exactly did we get from Russia in terms of ToT of S400?

 

[Saithan]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1880626644341416027

News further confirmation as website of tusas not updated.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara....

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

When I mentioned about underestimating and belittling, it wasn’t directed to @Spitfire9 ’s comments directly. But in a round about way, where it was an answer, in case his questions were understood as being belittling.

Of course, Turkiye doesn’t have the gas turbine expertise that RR have. But if you look at the Japanese and Italians; Neither do they. Not many countries in the world have developed expertise in jet engines.
Italians have Avio Aero, which is a GE company.
Japanese have IHI and Mitsubishi both are subcontractors of GE, P&W and RR, with the exception that the Japanese have extensive access to technologies including the hot section of the engines.

just to add as a side note:
Both Italians and Japanese can’t develop and produce military engine technologies without the consent and participation of UK and US companies. It has to do with WW2.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Don't worry about exports to the European region, my friends. Even if bilateral relations are perfect, TR-EU trade is doomed to weaken. The reason is the structural weaknesses in the EU's core economies. In fact, bilateral relations are not getting any better. On the contrary, we see new lows in that regard every year. I expect even greater nonsense from them, especially regarding bilateral trade. We must prepare as if the EU were wiped off the face of the earth!

We must prepare for this event technically and politically. On the technical side, first we must close our energy gap at all costs. Since food is also a form of energy, it is imperative to revolutionize our agricultural production. Also we must resolve the issue of military engines as soon as possible and focus on the chip issue. This all kind of military engines issue has become very annoying for me.

Since what needs to be done on the political side is very broad, it should be addressed in another forum topic.

 

[Scott Summers]

If we can produce these 4 things independantly, we will become a worldpower.

- chips
- semiconductors
- turbofan engines
- nuclaer energy

 

[Yasar_TR]

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

Tempest is supposed to be with a 19m length and 13.5m wing span.
That is slightly shorter than KAAN. But overall it is almost a similar size plane to KAAN. (KAAN is a big plane too)
The engines to power this plane are 2 x ~35000lbf class engines. So they are at around the same thrust level as what KAAN needs.
But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

To be part of Tempest program means both the engine and the plane itself. But firstly, we need to be invited in. As far as I know that has not happened. So we are discussing something that may be inconsequential anyway.

BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

 

[hugh]

But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

 

[uçuyorum]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

If you check the initial specs of the Tempest engine it has a system embedded inside the engine core to develop potentially up to 1MegaWatt of electrical output.

Quote:

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

Unquote.

 

[blackjack]

3rd stream cycle, so I guess the US and Russia are not the only 2 countries now developing a similar engine.

 

[boredaf]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?

 

[TheInsider]

There won't be a Tempest before 2040. There is no point to talk about a fighter on the paper. We should first see how the project unfolds.

 

[TheInsider]

Please tell me when the tender was held and who won it. What is TRMotor's role in this? TEI will develop it, but will TRMotor own the IP (intellectual property) rights? What approach will be followed?

There are two different tenders. Development tender and production tender. TRMotor won the first one and IP rights will be owned by TRMotor. Both TRMotor and TEI(Majority shares) are owned by TUSAS so TUSAS is developing its own engine for its own product. TEI is a critical technology provider and production partner. It is done this way so that Americans don't own %46 of the engine through their shares in TEI. TRMotor is a design bureau. The design team includes TEI, TRMotor and Ivchenko Progress.
Currently, the team is pushing really hard to put the first prototype of the engine on the bench before 2026 ends. Ambitious goals somewhat became a norm for the Turkish defense industry even if you miss the date it pushes people to work hard and shorten the overall process. I think we might see a slight delay of 3-6 months.


Production might involve a lot of different companies like Alp Aviation, Kale Jet Engines etc. Work packages will be distributed to a lot of different companies. TEI is expected to get the lion's share and the hardest parts. TRMotor might also invest in some production capability. Maybe an assembly line.

The engine will produce a wet thrust of 36000-38000 lbf. It will be lighter than 2000kg.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

 

[TheInsider]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

3 I don't want to tell this here but Turkiye is in a backdoor diplomacy process with the Chinese through Pakistan for a backup plan. If the US refuses to supply F110 Turkiye wants to secure Chinese engines at least for Pakistan but Turkiye also evaluates a doomsday scenario in which the US senate completely blocks F110 delivery to Turkiye. China also wants to export its own engines. Turkiye sees no such possibility for F404 at least for the trainer version of Hurjet.

I highly doubt that Pakistan is getting anything other than an assembly line and even that is doubtful because even structural part production and assembly of the fighter involves advanced processes. Production and assembly of JF-17 and Kaan are inherently different.

Turkiye is at a crossroads with the US in nearly everything. Either the US will come to our terms and we will support the US in the era of great power competition (albeit subtly) or the US will continue at the same route and we will take a third-way approach and support neither side and conduct critical business with all players when it is beneficial.

 

[boredaf]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

If we allow them to build anything critical there, this project is being led by utter morons, sums up my thoughts, albeit in a harsh language. I said it before and I'll say it again, if it were up to me, I wouldn't even sell Kaan to them, let alone giving them a production line.

Their economy, as you rightly pointed out, is on on the verge of collapsing for some time now. They are increasingly getting closer to China and their situation is not going to get any better as climate change starts hitting harder as they are right in the middle of one of the regions that are going to get hit the hardest without a doubt. They are not going to deny China a look under the hood if they ask for it, not when so many of their projects depend on them.