TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[TR_123456]

These are the top 10 countries on our export list of 2024. Where the rich arabs?


View attachment 73205

So?
Add all the smaller exports and you'll get a 50% independence from Europe.
Its about getting by not florishing.
If needed we can get by,thats the point.

Lets not derail the thread,move to the economy thread.

 

[Saithan]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara.Composite...

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1880626644341416027

News further confirmation as website of tusas not updated.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why do you think GE has a 46% stake in TEI?
TEI had nothing to contribute when it was set up. Today there is a trained workforce and management in place that has a very good level of understanding of high tech jet engine manufacturing at a “competitive” price plus a culture that is R&D orientated.
1. Don’t underestimate what Turkey can bring to the table.
2. Don’t belittle the low cost base that can be attained whilst developing and manufacturing many parts.
Not just on the engine side; But on the plane side too. Many parts of Boeing and Airbus planes are manufactured by Tusas due to the low cost base it can offer. The new state of the art composites factory claimed to be the 4th largest in the world with AI driven robotics usage, is a good place to start.

TAI's composite materials plant to be world's 4th largest

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ/TAI) is building a $181-million composite materials factory at its main campus in Kahramankazan, Ankara.Composite...

www.dailysabah.com

Aerospace engineering labour costs in Turkey are almost less than half of what they are in UK, Italy and Japan.
That alone is an attraction for any business.

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do not consider @Spitfire9 comment as belittling or underestimating.

He is just pointing out the obvious, yes while we have knowhow and cheap labourcost. We do not have any unique knowhow that we can contribute to 6.gen project.

For instance there are only 3 people who speak ancient urartu in this entire world fluently, and one of them is an old Turkish man, all 3 are very old,but youngest of the 3. He contributed a lot, and even turned down an invitation to US.

His fluent knowledge is still very much wanted, but in a couple of years it won't be. Because it is a dead language and having mapped out the languag will enable AI and other tech to read and translate it just as well. But his wisdom cannot be transferred to machines, not his experience.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

When I mentioned about underestimating and belittling, it wasn’t directed to @Spitfire9 ’s comments directly. But in a round about way, where it was an answer, in case his questions were understood as being belittling.

Of course, Turkiye doesn’t have the gas turbine expertise that RR have. But if you look at the Japanese and Italians; Neither do they. Not many countries in the world have developed expertise in jet engines.
Italians have Avio Aero, which is a GE company.
Japanese have IHI and Mitsubishi both are subcontractors of GE, P&W and RR, with the exception that the Japanese have extensive access to technologies including the hot section of the engines.

just to add as a side note:
Both Italians and Japanese can’t develop and produce military engine technologies without the consent and participation of UK and US companies. It has to do with WW2.

 

[boredaf]

I was talking about weapon systems.
KAAN,Altay,drones,ships etc.
Our economy imports oil and gas but that problem is partly solved by being a transport hub(Qatar to Europe added in the future) and finding more gas oil fields in the future.
East Med,Somalia,maybe even in the Aegean in the future.
Exports, to Iraq,Russia,African countries,soon to Syria etc.
Which means,we can get by without the EU if needed.

You're absolutely wrong about that one mate. Exports we make to the West completely dwarfs the ones we make any other place. None of the ones you mention have the possibility to replace that, and counting on Russia or god forbid China is worse than the West. China is literally a slave master, even African nations are reeling from the deals they made with them and we won't have a bigger enemy than Russia, nobody we have fought more in the last decade or two.

 

[TR_123456]

You're absolutely wrong about that one mate. Exports we make to the West completely dwarfs the ones we make any other place. None of the ones you mention have the possibility to replace that, and counting on Russia or god forbid China is worse than the West. China is literally a slave master, even African nations are reeling from the deals they made with them and we won't have a bigger enemy than Russia, nobody we have fought more in the last decade or two.

China wasnt mentioned,i'm not saying the others are replacing the EU.
I'm saying we get by,we have endured worse situations in the past.
Yani,
Dişimizi sıkabiliriz.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Don't worry about exports to the European region, my friends. Even if bilateral relations are perfect, TR-EU trade is doomed to weaken. The reason is the structural weaknesses in the EU's core economies. In fact, bilateral relations are not getting any better. On the contrary, we see new lows in that regard every year. I expect even greater nonsense from them, especially regarding bilateral trade. We must prepare as if the EU were wiped off the face of the earth!

We must prepare for this event technically and politically. On the technical side, first we must close our energy gap at all costs. Since food is also a form of energy, it is imperative to revolutionize our agricultural production. Also we must resolve the issue of military engines as soon as possible and focus on the chip issue. This all kind of military engines issue has become very annoying for me.

Since what needs to be done on the political side is very broad, it should be addressed in another forum topic.

 

[Scott Summers]

If we can produce these 4 things independantly, we will become a worldpower.

- chips
- semiconductors
- turbofan engines
- nuclaer energy

 

[Yasar_TR]

My reply was to the suggestion that Turkiye should
1 become a partner in the Tempest engine project
2 the Tempest engine could be used in KAAN

As far as I know (which is little) Tempest is likely to be a very large fighter since both Japan and UK want a fighter with great range, probably a much larger, heavier aircraft than KAAN. What are the chances of the engine for Tempest being suited to use in KAAN?

I am sure that parts/sub-assemblies can be made at a lower cost in Tutkiye than in the GCAP partner countries. That is not partner level involvement to me, though. No influence or input to specification, design or development.

I said that Turkiye had little or no engine technology that the Tempest engine developers do not already have. Is that not the case?

The Tempest engine could, I presume, be assembled at a lower cost in Turkiye. Tempest itself could, I presume, be assembled at a lower in Turkiye than in the UK, Italy or Japan but the partners want their own assembly lines.

Involving Turkish engineers in engine development, testing (possibly) and engine component production could result in cost savings. That I can see.

Tempest is supposed to be with a 19m length and 13.5m wing span.
That is slightly shorter than KAAN. But overall it is almost a similar size plane to KAAN. (KAAN is a big plane too)
The engines to power this plane are 2 x ~35000lbf class engines. So they are at around the same thrust level as what KAAN needs.
But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

To be part of Tempest program means both the engine and the plane itself. But firstly, we need to be invited in. As far as I know that has not happened. So we are discussing something that may be inconsequential anyway.

BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the BAe Systems Tempest FCAS 6th Generation Fighter Concept including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

 

[hugh]

But I doubt if those engines would be suitable with KAAN as they are geared to produce enormous amounts of electrical energy. Also they would probably be very expensive.

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

 

[uçuyorum]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are the generators of the engine internal to the engine itself? I thought it resides in the auxiliary part and can be reconfigured to have more or less power. No? Although 1 MW onboard power sounds crazy, it is still very little compared to the overall power of the engine(less than 5% of a 35k lbf engine).

If you check the initial specs of the Tempest engine it has a system embedded inside the engine core to develop potentially up to 1MegaWatt of electrical output.

Quote:

“The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform.”

Unquote.

 

[blackjack]

3rd stream cycle, so I guess the US and Russia are not the only 2 countries now developing a similar engine.

 

[boredaf]

I think the 6th gen laser weapons with enormous energy generation is going to end up too expensive and not very feasible. Plus there's the issue of cooling. KAAN also has 120 kVA generators for each F110 i think( so 4 times that of F16 and more than current F35(minus apu) even)

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?