TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Windchime]

We have saying in "Turkey, People' mouth are not a pochette to shrink".
Everyone has an opinion either they have a portion of knowledge about the matter they speak or not..

BTW,
Congratulations mate. You've become a moderator.

That's why my moderation of Korean section always work against censorship. Whenever some idiot comes to the section to post some loads of crap, I never delete them nor ban them since that is not what I think I should unilaterally choose to do.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't say anything and leave things as is. I set guidelines and organize the section, and very much willingly engage in fights to refute bold, or outright false claims.

Moreover, telling some people to speak once they have enough knowledge is not stopping them from having opinions. Everyone could have opinions, but opinions only have grounds when based on right amount of knowledge to support it.

Bro take it easy , there is no need for big brain to understand that USA want u to develop 5 gen and can give u the tech even free since u are allies agaist china , same with Taiwan . And both of US and S korea have big 00000 problems with each other the complete opposite with Turkiye which US support terrorists ypg to create terror country and devide Turkish land and even desteoyed our economy from closse 1 trillion in 2013 even now after 11 years we reach again 1.15 trillion .
Even President Trump itself said he wipl destroy our economy just because we catch a spy prist working with pkk.
- ( The remaining 20% was provided by domestic and foreign companies.[13]: 18  Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) won the production bid, and partnered with Lockheed Martin for technological support.
- (Lockheed Martin agreed to transfer two dozen F-35A technologies as part of a purchase deal to S.korea.
-While even we pay money for f35 US dont deliver them .

-(AESA radar was co-developed with Hanwha Systems under the leadership of the ADD.[68][69] Elta Systems helped to test the prototype hardware)

- Saab provided technical advice to LIG Nex1, which develops Multi Function Radar ]

-IRST is based on the processor unit (PU) designed by Hanwha Systems and a Leonardo sensor]

-US aerospace contractor Texstars was selected by KAI to develop canopy and windshield transparencies for KF-X.

+ 6 other major western companies contribute heavily to build kf 21 .
I love S korea , we dont have any problem but that is reality . And i hope u distance from USA even u dont have any geo-political fight will US better to be indepedent than ass licker of USA .

If by "help" you mean that US companies are participating in the program as subcontractors, I could only say that's just common practice. LM is part of the program since that was what the F-X program required the bidders to offer as an offset. They are fulfilling their obligations as a contractor, and that obligations were always take or leave.

If you want this to call it "help", then TUSAS and other Turkish contractors ain't free from it either, considering all the offset deals included in previous Peace Onyx programs. The difference between "foreign suppliers because it makes sense" and "because there's no other choice" must be distinguished.

Most importantly, when most important flight and mission critical components and software are sourced within Korea, and some especially because it is impossible to source from US or other countries due to sensitivity of said technology, you don't call that "a lot of help".

 

[Windchime]

Kf-21 is not 5th gen

That, and...

"We are one of five..."
One of four ...god damn!

don't read too much into some TV program probably directed by some producer with close to non-existent knowledge in military aviation.

 

[Isbara]

That's why my moderation of Korean section always work against censorship. Whenever some idiot comes to the section to post some loads of crap, I never delete them nor ban them since that is not what I think I should unilaterally choose to do.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't say anything and leave things as is. I set guidelines and organize the section, and very much willingly engage in fights to refute bold, or outright false claims.

Moreover, telling some people to speak once they have enough knowledge is not stopping them from having opinions. Everyone could have opinions, but opinions only have grounds when based on right amount of knowledge to support it.

But at least for the decent people who are participating here, tell your words without insulting anyone even if some of them really deseve.
Staying calm is always a better way to express yourself.

 

[Baryshx]

Kf-21 is not 5th gen

As far as I know, KF-21 Plus is coming. They have an easier job here, they have previous experience with the KF-21. Maybe the engines will change, they can put even more powerful engines.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I think some of our friends here are a little tone-deaf in their language. It's undiplomatic and hurtful and makes it harder to communicate. I hope they elect to change their undiplomatic approach to these affairs. This is WAFF behaviour.

But I implore our SK counterparts to try understanding the extent of the veiled or direct arms embargos that is imposed upon Turkey and its defence industry. It has been very disruptive and disheartening. Designing and building a plane is no small feat, but it takes a little weight off when you can just take a proven subsystem off-the-shelf and integrate it to the aircraft. You know how it behaves, its properties, delivery timeline and cost. All it takes is integrating it with the plane as a whole, which is still no easy task.

The general approach from other countries to Turkish projects is very, very hostile compared to their outlook on South Korean projects. Even small parts like screws got sanctioned AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong). I would guess any difficulties SK projects encounter mainly stem from market share/economic rivalry standpoint. I admit I'm not very informed on the subject but I can't even think why it would happen. In contrast, hostility towards Turkey has geopolitical and even cultural basis. It makes our job much harder. We also need it much earlier; it is both a matter of national security and honor.

Objectively speaking, South Korea has a very hard task and to their credit they are reaching their goals. Congrats on that account. But in comparison, Turkey is trying to make impossible happen, and having success so far. We still have ways to go, but this is the general perception among Turkish defence industry enthusiasts.

 

[TR_123456]

Bro take it easy , there is no need for big brain to understand that USA want u to develop 5 gen and can give u the tech even free since u are allies agaist china , same with Taiwan . And both of US and S korea have big 00000 problems with each other the complete opposite with Turkiye which US support terrorists ypg to create terror country and devide Turkish land and even desteoyed our economy from closse 1 trillion in 2013 even now after 11 years we reach again 1.15 trillion .
Even President Trump itself said he wipl destroy our economy just because we catch a spy prist working with pkk.
- ( The remaining 20% was provided by domestic and foreign companies.[13]: 18  Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) won the production bid, and partnered with Lockheed Martin for technological support.
- (Lockheed Martin agreed to transfer two dozen F-35A technologies as part of a purchase deal to S.korea.
-While even we pay money for f35 US dont deliver them .

-(AESA radar was co-developed with Hanwha Systems under the leadership of the ADD.[68][69] Elta Systems helped to test the prototype hardware)

- Saab provided technical advice to LIG Nex1, which develops Multi Function Radar ]

-IRST is based on the processor unit (PU) designed by Hanwha Systems and a Leonardo sensor]

-US aerospace contractor Texstars was selected by KAI to develop canopy and windshield transparencies for KF-X.

+ 6 other major western companies contribute heavily to build kf 21 .
I love S korea , we dont have any problem but that is reality . And i hope u distance from USA even u dont have any geo-political fight will US better to be indepedent than ass licker of USA .

Dont use the word ''help'',if we could have gained/bought those systems so easily from Western companies we would have done the same.
There is no 100% indigenous sophisticated weapon system(engines,fighter jets,missiles etc),not even North-Korea or the US dont have 100% indigenous systems,there is always something bought from other countries.
Our country goes for it because we have to,South-Korea doesnt need to.
So,try to read situations before making statements or assumptions about other countries.
You are unknowingly insulting countries,think about it.

 

[TR_123456]

Kf-21 is not 5th gen

Why not,because it doesnt have an internal weapons bay?

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Dont use the word ''help'',if we could have gained/bought those systems so easily from Western companies we would have done the same.
There is no 100% indigenous sophisticated weapon system(engines,fighter jets,missiles etc),not even North-Korea or the US 100% indigenous systems,there is always something bought from other countries.
Our country goes for it because we have to,South-Korea doesnt need to.
So,try to read situations before making statements or assumptions about other countries.
You are unknowingly insulting countries,think about it.

I think you misunderstand what i mean , S korea have 0 problems with Usa thats why can easy get tech and other weapons as it wants and habe big same opponent (China) This make them to raly on USA weapons easy and dont mind because they have 0 problems with each other , its like Azerbaijan with Turkiye or Pakistan. Its just Geo-politics . And i know even USA buy some systems from others ans nothing is 100% but the difference is for which u buy ? Usa from UK ? Same as Turkiye from Azerbaijan .
Thats the point .
KAAN must be indigenous at major systems thats why Turkiye will develop its engine , ejection seat and others while for S korea i dont think so because they dont have problem with USA like we do not because S korea is weak and cant develop its 5 gen . I said many times S korea is so advanced and have great airforce and navy with advanced submarines and destroyers that Turkiye dont have for now .

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Why doesn't the KF-21 have an internal weapons bay? That's one of the main features of a stealth fighter, isn't it?
Otherwise, the KF-21 makes a very good impression, which is a real shame, it would even have been a good alternative for Turkey instead of the Eurofighter....

 

[TR_123456]

I think you misunderstand what i mean , S korea have 0 problems with Usa thats why can easy get texh and other weapons as it wants and habe big same opponent (China) This make them to raly on USA weapons easy and dont mind because they have 0 problems with each other , its like Azerbaijan with Turkiye or Pakistan. Its just Geo-politics . And i know even USA buy some systems from others ans nothing is 100% but the difference is for which u buy ? Usa from UK ? Same as Turkiye from Azerbaijan .
Thats the point .
KAAN must be indigenous at major systems thats why Turkiye will develop its engine , ejection seat and others while for S korea i dont think so because they dont have problem with USA like we do not because S korea is weak and cant develop its 5 gen . I said many times S korea is so advanced and have great airforce and navy with advanced submarines and destroyers that Turkiye dont have for now .

Ok but the way you said it was not good,you should have explained it better.
Im sure it has to do with your english but check next time if you can find better words.

Like this sentence,


''This make them to raly on USA weapons...''

Did you mean :they can rely on US weapon systems...

 

[TR_123456]

Why doesn't the KF-21 have an internal weapons bay? That's the be-all and end-all of a stealth fighter, isn't it?
The KF-21 otherwise makes a very good impression, which is a real shame, it would even have been a good alternative for Turkey instead of the Eurofighter....

They just started the project,who knows what they plan in the future.
Who are we to decide what is 4,5 or 5 th gen?
KAAN in its current state is also not 5th gen,do you see anyone calling it 4,5 gen?
We need to be more respectful.

 

[Afif]

I think some of our friends here are a little tone-deaf in their language. It's undiplomatic and hurtful and makes it harder to communicate. I hope they elect to change their undiplomatic approach to these affairs. This is WAFF behaviour.

But I implore our SK counterparts to try understanding the extent of the veiled or direct arms embargos that is imposed upon Turkey and its defence industry. It has been very disruptive and disheartening. Designing and building a plane is no small feat, but it takes a little weight off when you can just take a proven subsystem off-the-shelf and integrate it to the aircraft. You know how it behaves, its properties, delivery timeline and cost. All it takes is integrating it with the plane as a whole, which is still no easy task.

The general approach from other countries to Turkish projects is very, very hostile compared to their outlook on South Korean projects. Even small parts like screws got sanctioned AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong). I would guess any difficulties SK projects encounter mainly stem from market share/economic rivalry standpoint. I admit I'm not very informed on the subject but I can't even think why it would happen. In contrast, hostility towards Turkey has geopolitical and even cultural basis. It makes our job much harder. We also need it much earlier; it is both a matter of national security and honor.

Objectively speaking, South Korea has a very hard task and to their credit they are reaching their goals. Congrats on that account. But in comparison, Turkey is trying to make impossible happen, and having success so far. We still have ways to go, but this is the general perception among Turkish defence industry enthusiasts.

From a third party perspective, overall Western attitude to Türkiye's defence ambition doesn't seem hostile, but clearly non-cooperative and unhelpful. (There is a difference) They provide enough not to alienate and disintegrate Türkiye, but definitely not sufficient that you expect from your security 'partners' and treaty allies.

See for example, KAAN has these subsystem imported.

Secondo Mona, fuel system (Italy)
OMA, hydraulic power (Italy)
Martin Baker, ejection seat (UK)
General Electric, engines (USA)
Airtificial, active sidestick (Spain)
Aerosonic, air data system (USA)

Now, if USA or West in general were actively trying to sabotage the program as often claimed here and there, why would they supply those critical subsystems? To keep Türkiye around while at the same time playing hardball.

In the end it is all complex geopolitical maneuvers for everyone involved in the game to maximize their individual and collective interests. Türkiye will have to put up with this until it becomes fully self-sufficient.

Another big problem is how Türkiye is not very good at communicating to the sophisticated and educated audience worldwide, it is one of the most misunderstood countries when it comes to geopolitics.

 

[YeşilVatan]

From a third party perspective, overall Western attitude to Türkiye's defence ambition doesn't seem hostile, but clearly non-cooperative and unhelpful. (There is a difference) They provide enough not to alienate and disintegrate Türkiye, but definitely not sufficient that you expect from your security 'partners' and treaty allies.

See for example, KAAN has these subsystem imported.

Secondo Mona, fuel system (Italy)
OMA, hydraulic power (Italy)
Martin Baker, ejection seat (UK)
General Electric, engines (USA)
Airtificial, active sidestick (Spain)
Aerosonic, air data system (USA)

Now, if USA or West in general were actively trying to sabotage the program as often claimed here and there, why would they supply those critical subsystems?

In the end it is all geopolitical maneuvers for everyone involved in the game to maximize their individual and collective interests. Türkiye will have to put up with this until it becomes fully self-sufficient.

Another big problem is how Türkiye is not very good at communicating to the sophisticated and educated audience worldwide, it is one of the most misunderstood countries when it comes to geopolitics.

There are reasons for that:

• They think witholding these subsystems won't impact much, so they are just profiting by selling them.
• Companies 'sneak' these subsystems under the noses of sanction-happy decision makers. (that's a guess by me)
• In the case of Italy, UK and Spain, they are not *that* hostile. They still don't want competitors though.
• They think the project will not be finalized
• They reckon mass production is impossible. Subsystems and parts are provided only for the prototypes.
• The subsystems are bought in the 'good' days. The relations have its ups and downs.

Furthermore, especially US has no qualms with unilaterally cancelling agreements, you can't just think "oh we have a written contract, they will surely deliver."

Point is, it's like pulling teeth. Whatever parts and subsystems we have, we fought for it. I can't even imagine the amount of BS they pulled.

EDIT: more to the point, are South Koreans forced to grapple with this amount of 'frenemy' hostility? No.

 

[2033]

There are reasons for that:

• They think witholding these subsystems won't impact much, so they are just profiting by selling them.
• Companies 'sneak' these subsystems under the noses of sanction-happy decision makers. (that's a guess by me)
• In the case of Italy, UK and Spain, they are not *that* hostile. They still don't want competitors though.
• They think the project will not be finalized
• They reckon mass production is impossible. Subsystems and parts are provided only for the prototypes.
• The subsystems are bought in the 'good' days. The relations have its ups and downs.

Furthermore, especially US has no qualms with unilaterally cancelling agreements, you can't just think "oh we have a written contract, they will surely deliver."

Point is, it's like pulling teeth. Whatever parts and subsystems we have, we fought for it. I can't even imagine the amount of BS they pulled.

EDIT: more to the point, are South Koreans forced to grapple with this amount of 'frenemy' hostility? No.

Turkey is still a NATO country. They cannot give up on Turkey completely. They have to give up some things to keep Turkey in the western bloc.

And we have to do what is necessary to stay in the western bloc. For example, we had to approve Sweden's NATO membership.

Both sides need each other but don't like each other very much. If you ask me, I like the west. The west is more consistent than us, we are the inconsistent side.

 

[Radonsider]

They just started the project,who knows what they plan in the future.
Who are we to decide what is 4,5 or 5 th gen?
KAAN in its current state is also not 5th gen,do you see anyone calling it 4,5 gen?
We need to be more respectful.

Difference is that KF-21 program doesn't include a weapons bay or conformal sensors up until Block-3 and Block-3 is not funded as of now iirc. It is the same thought experiment as Kaan is 6th gen

 

[Radonsider]

Why not,because it doesnt have an internal weapons bay?

Not just internal bays

 

[BalkanTurk90]

From a third party perspective, overall Western attitude to Türkiye's defence ambition doesn't seem hostile, but clearly non-cooperative and unhelpful. (There is a difference) They provide enough not to alienate and disintegrate Türkiye, but definitely not sufficient that you expect from your security 'partners' and treaty allies.

See for example, KAAN has these subsystem imported.

Secondo Mona, fuel system (Italy)
OMA, hydraulic power (Italy)
Martin Baker, ejection seat (UK)
General Electric, engines (USA)
Airtificial, active sidestick (Spain)
Aerosonic, air data system (USA)

Now, if USA or West in general were actively trying to sabotage the program as often claimed here and there, why would they supply those critical subsystems? To keep Türkiye around while at the same time playing hardball.

In the end it is all complex geopolitical maneuvers for everyone involved in the game to maximize their individual and collective interests. Türkiye will have to put up with this until it becomes fully self-sufficient.

Another big problem is how Türkiye is not very good at communicating to the sophisticated and educated audience worldwide, it is one of the most misunderstood countries when it comes to geopolitics.

Bro do u know that USA operate 2 most important bases in Turkiye ?
Incirlik nuke base and Kürecik Radar bases , both are vital for USA and mostly for israel at least the radar base .
So thats why they give us 1 or 2 subsystems but not because they like us and want us to be strong .

 

[Saithan]

I don't recall ever looking down on any nations achievement, or belittling it, not even Iran.

If only you guys knew how many times I think "dumb shit" at the posts I see, despite I, Myself, sometimes get caught in the moments

 

[Baryshx]

View attachment 66289

Why don't we have all the subcontractors in the shared image? For example Martin Baker and GE... Does that affect the word "indigenous and national"?

 

[Rodeo]

Why don't we have all the subcontractors in the shared image? For example Martin Baker and GE... Does that affect the word "indigenous and national"?

There is an image with the foreign suppliers and @moz68k wrote the company names but those are main suppliers. There are more than 200 suppliers that weren't named in that infographic.