TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Shtr]

He has shared some his thoughts. It was swarm of drones and not this concept I guess.

 

[Sanchez]

KE, Anka III won't be much than a system that delivers a payload at dedicated targets. Or provides a quick look at the targets prior to attack

I don't think most people understand this. Tech is simply not there yet.

 

[boredaf]

I don't think most people understand this. Tech is simply not there yet.

It's the bloody word "AI", people see it and think of Skynet when in reality things that are labelled as AI right now has no real intelligence to them at all. It's just a buzzword that people keep falling for.

 

[Anmdt]

I don't think most people understand this. Tech is simply not there yet.

I am not much of a computer science guy but i have seen people struggling with a single GPU (expensive one) on a sea platform (something tiny, unmanned, remote controlled) trying to implement some well known image processing tool on the go with a low-frame per second (1 and even less). The boat was merely making less than 10 knots, and had only 3 cameras to process (360 degrees). It had troubles, on a 2D domain that in can move, and on a 2D space it needs to process.

When i combine all the sensors on a fighter jet and thinking ways to "process it" and "reason it", that even overwhelms me.

Yes the future is there and i don't think anyone denies the fact that it is, but i can relate this to 80s-90s where remotely piloted UAVs were a big thing and nowadays even kids can get one and play with those, in a similar manner those "AI" enabled fighters will be used by some superpowers in the next decade but past-2050 those technologies will be commercialized or enabled by 3rd parties and just as happened with TB2 (and the drones in the same class, where almost ever nation in G20 has such a program to develop one, or already operates an indigenous one), better if we start now and adjust to that.

Dreams are meant to be sold but it is like the "mushrooms", it poisons some minds and then they begin to parrot "yeah manned platforms are junk".

 

[Heartbang]

Yeah but that's beyond 2050, maybe even more.

Can you assure us that there won't be any wars or conflicts that we may need a manned system and or if happens to be, can be resolved entirely by missiles and unmanned systems until the time comes?

If so i willingly support halting the entire of manned projects.

Do we have end to end secure (not talking about an encrypted network, but security of whole chain) communications solutions at the moment to get the same work done via remotely piloted / controlled drones?

From today to ten years ahead most of the unmanned platforms will serve as front line units, KE, Anka III won't be much than a system that delivers a payload at dedicated targets. Or provides a quick look at the targets prior to attack.

Developing manned platforms shouldn't be redundant or negligible. The process itself heavily supports the core technologies that unmanned platforms need in future, they can coexist for a smooth transition.

Which of the manned platform development program focuses so much on the pilot factor and got delayed because of that? It is often related to engines, stealth techs, radars, signal processors and so on.

I do concur with all the points you've mentioned, apart from one thing:

I don't think it'll take that many years for this tech to mature. And there are people in the Pentagon CoC who are on the same page as me. They often mention the development pace of the AI tech has triggered a reorganization effort in the NGAD project.

And when one does remember that Elon Musk has this doohickey called "Starlink" at hand that has proved itself in the battlefield already. A tech he stated many times that he's willing to militarize for the right price.

Suddenly, Elon screeching against F-35's make a lot more sense.

 

[uçuyorum]

I am not much of a computer science guy but i have seen people struggling with a single GPU (expensive one) on a sea platform (something tiny, unmanned, remote controlled) trying to implement some well known image processing tool on the go with a low-frame per second (1 and even less). The boat was merely making less than 10 knots, and had only 3 cameras to process (360 degrees). It had troubles, on a 2D domain that in can move, and on a 2D space it needs to process.

When i combine all the sensors on a fighter jet and thinking ways to "process it" and "reason it", that even overwhelms me.

Yes the future is there and i don't think anyone denies the fact that it is, but i can relate this to 80s-90s where remotely piloted UAVs were a big thing and nowadays even kids can get one and play with those, in a similar manner those "AI" enabled fighters will be used by some superpowers in the next decade but past-2050 those technologies will be commercialized or enabled by 3rd parties and just as happened with TB2 (and the drones in the same class, where almost ever nation in G20 has such a program to develop one, or already operates an indigenous one), better if we start now and adjust to that.

Dreams are meant to be sold but it is like the "mushrooms", it poisons some minds and then they begin to parrot "yeah manned platforms are junk".

Sounds like a skill issue on that guy.

 

[Anmdt]

I do concur with all the points you've mentioned, apart from one thing:

I don't think it'll take that many years for this tech to mature. And there are people in the Pentagon CoC who are on the same page as me. They often mention the development pace of the AI tech has triggered a reorganization effort in the NGAD project.

And when one does remember that Elon Musk has this doohickey called "Starlink" at hand that has proved itself in the battlefield already. A tech he stated many times that he's willing to militarize for the right price.

Suddenly, Elon screeching against F-35's make a lot more sense.

That's my point,

Do we have starlink or any low latency, secure and multiple satellite (redundant scheme) enabled communication tool?

If we have it in the next decade do we have resources to defend it in space domain, or cyber domain or EW domain? If my answer is no to any of those, i won't rely on that network for combat, but we may get a yes if we start from now.

 

[UcanTost]

How many rockets can an F35 carry? 10? 20?

All what I need is 30 kamikaze-like loyal wingman and the F35 is cooked
Do you know whats even funnier? Is that the cost of such system maybe even cheaper than a fully equipped single f35, looool

Lets just admit it, the F35 is a failed project. It was intended to be an upgrade over the beautifully made F16s, but they failed in every sense of the word.

It just doesnt make sense for me to spend billions of dollars on a couple of F35s that will continue to siphon off the defence budget every year and send it to the Americans when I even need to ask the bloody Americans every day for the fqing password

In terms of efficiency, longevity, and cost-effectiveness, the F35 is a bloody black hole that will bankrupt nations and not make it stronger

Stop talking non-sense and give me concrete examples.

Which kamikaze-like loyal wingman are you talking about? How are you actually going to take me out?

Spoiler alert: you wont.

 

[Rooxbar]

If you want ideas about how possible AGI is seen currently, talk to statisticians with PhDs in probability theory, measure theory, computational complexity theory, etc. or in statistical physics working on Deep RL, LLMS, etc. not people who want to sell you something.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I asked ChatGPT if there was a connection between Musk's statements about the F-35, and the recent news/desire of US industry/government to bring Turkey back into the F-35 program.

The answer was surprising but also somehow predictable.

CHAT GPT (Paid Version)
Elon Musk recently criticized the F-35 fighter jets as prone to error and extremely expensive, highlighting the efficiency of unmanned drones.
As a member of the Trump administration, he could have a major influence on defense spending, which could lead to a review of the F-35 budget.

At the same time, there are reports that the US would like to reintegrate Turkey into the F-35 program if Ankara renounces the Russian S-400 missile defense system. The reintegration of Turkey could reduce the production costs of the F-35 and distribute production among the NATO partner.

Their assumption is therefore logical: Musk's criticism could lead to budget cuts, while reintegrating Turkey into the program could reduce costs by increasing production numbers and optimizing costs through international cooperation.

 

[hugh]

I asked ChatGPT if there was a connection between Musk's statements about the F-35, and the recent news/desire of US industry/government to bring Turkey back into the F-35 program.

a tweet from 2021

Their assumption is therefore logical: Musk's criticism could lead to budget cuts, while reintegrating Turkey into the program could reduce costs by increasing production numbers and optimizing costs through international cooperation.

@Ripley can you file a petition to tip the Americans to move their assembly line to Turkey?

TAI will take the bullet and save the mighty F35

 

[Spitfire9]

At the same time, there are reports that the US would like to reintegrate Turkey into the F-35 program if Ankara renounces the Russian S-400 missile defense system. The reintegration of Turkey could reduce the production costs of the F-35 and distribute production among the NATO partner.

Their assumption is therefore logical: Musk's criticism could lead to budget cuts, while reintegrating Turkey into the program could reduce costs by increasing production numbers and optimizing costs through international cooperation.

If a program like Gripen E (100 ordered so far) doubled to 200 orders, I could see that reducing unit costs materially. Would 100 more F-35 have much effect on unit costs? I don't see it. But I'm no expert.

 

[Ripley]

a tweet from 2021

@Ripley can you file a petition to tip the Americans to move their assembly line to Turkey?

TAI will take the bullet and save the mighty F35

The only work force he is concerned about is pick up truck jobs at giant corporates and miners in PA. Also, as next president’s advisor Musk already dissed and mocked F35 this might be a good idea

 

[hugh]

If a program like Gripen E (100 ordered so far) doubled to 200 orders, I could see that reducing unit costs materially. Would 100 more F-35 have much effect on unit costs? I don't see it. But I'm no expert.

F35's flyaway cost is already less than many 4th gen fighters and ordering 40-60 more airframe wouldn't make a dent in the cost structure of the program. I see no way of us joining the JSF to produce parts. We could buy some in the future but that's about it. we'd be an ordinary buyer with no added benefits.

 

[No Name]

I don't think most people understand this. Tech is simply not there yet.

but isn't that the most important role of a fighter jet in the first place?

 

[Kitra]

Drones will dominate any 4th gen figther within 5 years and possibly 5th gen figther in 10 years. This is specially true for a country like USA which has all the infrastructure ready for this today. They have the drones, they have the sensors, they have the ammunition and most importantly, they have Starlink to control any drone around the world in real time with latency as low as 20-40ms and gigabit throughput. For the last second defence, current AI algorithms is more than enough to do evasive maneuvers requireing <1 ms response time, which is far faster than humans can do.

The second part people miss completely is that there is a hard requirement on manned figthers to be big, expensive and high-performance in order to protect the pilot. So fleets concentrate on a single high performance platform such as F16 or f35 as their main offensive figther. The only viable tactics for manned figthers is to be fast in, carry a lot of bombs and be fast out of the area of danger.

A drone does not have this requirement or limitation so you won't see a fleet with only high performance drones in offensive or defensive roles. You will see very small cheap stealth drones doing passive surveillance 50-200 km in front of your air-superiority fighters. These small surveillance drones does not even need to be required to survive. They just needs to be invisible to the enemy as long as possible. The figthers will then be followed with stealthy or heavy bombers. Finally, you will have heavy AWACS drones with very powerful radar as last line somewhere 200 to 300 km behind your small surveillance drones. All this for less than what a single modern high-performance figther cost today.

So manned fighters are disadvantaged in tactics, sensors, ammunition, numbers and risk management. There is simply no possibility for manned figthers to survive against drones in the near future when the drones are designed for their specific tasks.

The real question is, will any other country outside USA have these in the near future. Yes, China in particular but Turkey is also on a good way to have this. Europe, not so much in the next 10 years.

Here are some link for what AI can do even for hobbyist today.

Besides these, all of you must have seen the swarms with 10000 drones. No human or group of humans can come close to control such swarms. These swarms will be deadly against any target whatsoever as there is simply no defence against them. Send in 1000 small drones against a aircraft carrier and it is 100% certain that the drones to win by blowing up all the sensors and weapons in the whole carrier group. The final blow to the carrier group will come from the bombers drones.

 

[No Name]

There was news that the US is planning to have 1,000 AI powered jets by 2028, so the AI fighter age is coming a lot sooner then most people think.

 

[dBSPL]

When Musk is talking about drones instead of F-35's, he's not talking about quadcopters and stuff. He's talking about this:

So, mock him at your own peril.

I am sure that the concept of this KE fleet autonomy has attracted the attention of many circles in the world. While in our country it has hardly been on the agenda of social media.

*

On the other hand, the aim of the KAAN programme is not only a 5th generation jet, but also an -optionally- manned next gen jet. Maybe not block-30/40, but ultimately the aim is to gain such a capability. And it is likely that the ability to return to base without pilot control and advanced landing and take-off support will be included earlier in the range of the aircraft's wide range of decision support and autonomy systems. But more importantly, in the years when KAAN becomes the TAF's main combat aircraft, perhaps it will usher in a different era in fleet composition. For example, only one pilot will go on a mission that previously sent 4 pilots conventionally, and the other 2 or 3 aircraft will consist of unmanned jets. What kind of interface will be provided to the pilot here is one of the issues I am most curious about. Maybe it sounds a bit utopian now, but maybe the fighter pilots we come to the 2040s will have an interface with some kind of neural link. (If the world enters a period of great reckoning again in the 2030s, there will be a quantum leap in these areas.)

In line with these thoughts, I am of the opinion that the single-engine light KAAN aircraft, which is sometimes described in defence circles, will actually be ANKA-X.

 

[Kartal1]

Guys, please discuss the F-35 project in the context of Turkiye in the thread below.

Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

one question, if F35 is that much stealth, why they dont use it in Yemen? 10th UAV has been down just recently Could be a hundred various reasons other than F-35 stealth capability being a scam.

defencehub.live

Let's keep this thread clean.

Thank you!

 

[Spitfire9]

I see that the US upgrade kits for F-16 are no longer wanted.

https://bulgarianmilitary

.com/2024/11/27/turkey-shocks-the-u-s-drops-f-16-fighters-deal-goes-local/

I presume that using local upgrades will save a lot of money. If (if, I don't know) the KAAN PROJECT would be accelerated by increased funding, should some of those savings be diverted to KAAN/TF35000 or might they be earmarked for an EF procurement?

Would Turkiye also drop the 40 x F-16 procurement if an agreement on terms to buy Eurofighter were reached? I guess that Eurofighters could be delivered relatively quickly (<3 years).