TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Spitfire9]

Aslo hurjet can be equiped with future Baykar 20k lbs engine or russian, chiba , europian one of US refuse to sell

Will add years of delay.

 

[Merzifonlu]

So the plan is to go with foreign engines for the prototypes and make the 20 block 10 planes with foreign engines if there are foreign engines available and introduce national engines when foreign engines are no longer available no matter what level of maturity is achieved with the national engine at the time.

There are two conditions for this plan to work.

1- The immature TF35000 engine must be capable of delivering the thrust values of the F110. In other words, we must be able to obtain at least 18,000 lbf dry thrust and 30,000 lbf wet thrust from the immature TF35000 engine.

2- The immature TF35000 engine must operate with sufficient reliability within the maintenance interval. Let's say the maintenance interval is 500 hours. We must be able to ensure that the engine will not explode during these 500 hours of flight time!

 

[Zafer]

There are two conditions for this plan to work.

1- The immature TF35000 engine must be capable of delivering the thrust values of the F110. In other words, we must be able to obtain at least 18,000 lbf dry thrust and 30,000 lbf wet thrust from the immature TF35000 engine.

2- The immature TF35000 engine must operate with sufficient reliability within the maintenance interval. Let's say the maintenance interval is 500 hours. We must be able to ensure that the engine will not explode during these 500 hours of flight time!

I feel confident TEI can deliver these requirements by '28. The engine's structural strength would be guarantied first, thrust level would be next. TBO hours would be stabilized at a respectable number going towards deployment.

China had problems manufacturing turbine blades at a good yield rate. We have no idea how well TEI will manage this situation but I am confident they are working for a good rate.

 

[Zafer]

One consideration about the Kaan engine development is whether TEI will employ the latest generation of turbine blade technology that they are working on or they will try out the previous generations that they already managed to make first. That is if they will employ single chrystal casting with cooling and coating or they will use additive technologies first. Or maybe there will be both and they can be offered as an option to different users. This is related to whether an early crop of engines can be made and used on an early batch of Kaan fighters which I can fondly call Prince Kaan.

 

[Yasar_TR]

One consideration about the Kaan engine development is whether TEI will employ the latest generation of turbine blade technology that they are working on or they will try out the previous generations that they already managed to make first. That is if they will employ single chrystal casting with cooling and coating or they will use additive technologies first. Or maybe there will be both and they can be kffered as an option to different users. This is related to whether an early crop of engines can be made and used on an early batch of Kaan fighter which I can fondly call Prince Kaan.

The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades. These are the blades that are subjected to extreme heat. Hence need single crystal tech.

The conventional fabrication process for single-crystal nickel-based superalloy materials is directional solidification, which is classified as “casting”. With the rapid development of additive manufacturing technologies, a novel process for fabricating single-crystal superalloys has become possible. But this is still in development phase.
Single crystal materials exhibit better high-temperature strength and creep resistance than polycrystalline materials. Thus, nickel-based superalloys have been produced to satisfy the requirements for aero-engines and gas-turbine blades
By using Laser powder feeding method it has been made possible to produce by additive manufacturing of single crystal blades under lab conditions. But recently by using electron beam powder bed fusion, a breakthrough has been achieved and it has been possible to additively manufacture single crystal blades as good as directionally solidified casting. This is a tech that was used first time in post 2016 under lab conditions.
Although Electron beam method has been found to be very good; blades manufactured through this process has different creep and crack formation parameters to directionally solidified single crystal blades.

LP turbine blades have been manufactured with additive technologies and even friction welded to form blisks. The air flow temperatures in LP turbine sections are considerably lower. Hence more forgiving and better tolerances. But still I don’t know if any engines used in current fighter jets use any LP or HP blades manufactured with additive technologies. (Some articles claim EJ200 has such LP blisk turbine blades. But it is unconfirmed)

If TEI is aspiring to produce a similar engine to F119 in output thrust levels, then 3rd generation single crystal blades are the way forward. There is no need to go for esoteric new technologies.
However, with the design parameters of TF6000 being a starting point, one can assume that the engine with such a bypass ratio and efficient cooling systems may not need the latest generation single crystal blades TEI has mustered to produce. This engine may produce the required thrust levels without pushing extremes. Real work lies in general engine durability.

LASER BEAM BLADE 3D PRINTING

ELECTRON BEAM POWDER BED FUSION

 

[Zafer]

The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades. These are the blades that are subjected to extreme heat. Hence need single crystal tech.

The conventional fabrication process for single-crystal nickel-based superalloy materials is directional solidification, which is classified as “casting”. With the rapid development of additive manufacturing technologies, a novel process for fabricating single-crystal superalloys has become possible. But this is still in development phase.
Single crystal materials exhibit better high-temperature strength and creep resistance than polycrystalline materials. Thus, nickel-based superalloys have been produced to satisfy the requirements for aero-engines and gas-turbine blades
By using Laser powder feeding method it has been made possible to produce by additive manufacturing of single crystal blades under lab conditions. But recently by using electron beam powder bed fusion, a breakthrough has been achieved and it has been possible to additively manufacture single crystal blades as good as directionally solidified casting. This is a tech that was used first time in post 2016 under lab conditions.
Although Electron beam method has been found to be very good; blades manufactured through this process has different creep and crack formation parameters to directionally solidified single crystal blades.

LP turbine blades have been manufactured with additive technologies and even friction welded to form blisks. The air flow temperatures in LP turbine sections are considerably lower. Hence more forgiving and better tolerances. But still I don’t know if any engines used in current fighter jets use any LP or HP blades manufactured with additive technologies. (Some articles claim EJ200 has such LP blisk turbine blades. But it is unconfirmed)

If TEI is aspiring to produce a similar engine to F119 in output thrust levels, then 3rd generation single crystal blades are the way forward. There is no need to go for esoteric new technologies.
However, with the design parameters of TF6000 being a starting point, one can assume that the engine with such a bypass ratio and efficient cooling systems may not need the latest generation single crystal blades TEI has mustered to produce. This engine may produce the required thrust levels without pushing extremes. Real work lies in general engine durability.

LASER BEAM BLADE 3D PRINTING

View attachment 76358


ELECTRON BEAM POWDER BED FUSION

View attachment 76359

I think TEI can make compressor blisks very well already by CNC machining. For turbine blades different technologies will give different performance levels at varying costs and production lead times. So having several different technologies going will be adventageus.

 

[Strong AI]

Nickel alloy powders for additive manufacturing, which are subject to export license, will be developed in ATOM Project. Turbine parts in aviation engines are made from nickel based super alloys in order not to lose their strength under high load and temperature. In ATOM project, Inconel 718 and Inconel 625 powders for LAM (Laser Additive Manufacturing), and Inconel 718 powder for EBM (Electron Beam Melting) will be produced by the atomization process, characterized and validated through the samples.
The ATOM Project is funded by Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB), and Ermaksan is joined as a main sub-contractor. Ermaksan, which is one of the leading machine provider companies of Turkey and announced a powder bed laser melting additive system the ENA 250, will develop a system for powder manufacturing, and start producing powders on pilot scale.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/atom-en

YAKUT Project intends the acquisition of Selective Laser Melting, which is classified as a potential fabrication method of future in the group of additive manufacturing techniques, to the defense industry with an object to produce prototype components using Ni-based superalloys.
[...]
Within this scope, the integrated fabrication of combustion chamber that consists of 9 different parts involved in TEI TJ90 Turbojet engine has been successfully completed by utilizing the UNS N06625 Nickel alloy in powder form and obtained the required mechanical properties.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/yakut-en

TEI - Kristal

www.tei.com.tr

@Zafer @Yasar_TR

 

[Zafer]

Nickel alloy powders for additive manufacturing, which are subject to export license, will be developed in ATOM Project. Turbine parts in aviation engines are made from nickel based super alloys in order not to lose their strength under high load and temperature. In ATOM project, Inconel 718 and Inconel 625 powders for LAM (Laser Additive Manufacturing), and Inconel 718 powder for EBM (Electron Beam Melting) will be produced by the atomization process, characterized and validated through the samples.
The ATOM Project is funded by Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB), and Ermaksan is joined as a main sub-contractor. Ermaksan, which is one of the leading machine provider companies of Turkey and announced a powder bed laser melting additive system the ENA 250, will develop a system for powder manufacturing, and start producing powders on pilot scale.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/atom-en

YAKUT Project intends the acquisition of Selective Laser Melting, which is classified as a potential fabrication method of future in the group of additive manufacturing techniques, to the defense industry with an object to produce prototype components using Ni-based superalloys.
[...]
Within this scope, the integrated fabrication of combustion chamber that consists of 9 different parts involved in TEI TJ90 Turbojet engine has been successfully completed by utilizing the UNS N06625 Nickel alloy in powder form and obtained the required mechanical properties.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/yakut-en

TEI - Kristal

www.tei.com.tr

@Zafer @Yasar_TR

I remember all these but I can't argue with "The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades" arguement as I can't verify it at the moment. I remember that TEI achieved like 102% the quality of casting with additive and they are in the process of creating the entire materials supply chain moving on. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Zafer]

YAKUT Project

This name resonates with me as I personally had a Yakut Project of my own. I literally tried to make ruby in my senior year in high school. But I got one of the ingredients wrong and I only had budget for one go.

 

[TheInsider]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

 

[Huelague]

Could Spain also be interested in Kaan?

 

[Strong AI]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

So basically China doing Egypt a favor.

 

[Fairon]

Could Spain also be interested in Kaan?

if Kaan matures a bit more and we solve the engine problem, why not?

The Kaan project currently consists mostly of good wishes and intentions. For Spain(countries that alternative options to select) to get interested in Kaan, the project needs to show results or at least a good progress. Kaan is not like Hurjet at the moment.(Especially for the engines. There are no alternative engine available for Kaan on the market)

I am assuming FCAS will end up in failure though.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

Extremely unlikely. Egypt has repeatedly criticized Turkey publicly and, together with the United Arab Emirates, has supported Haftar in Libya. Not to mention that they support Greece in maritime areas. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates are the last Islamic countries that will gain access to absolute high technology from Turkey, and that is intentional. Both are very unpopular even within their Arab clique (The Arab League is a Joke).

 

[Zafer]

Extremely unlikely. Egypt has repeatedly criticized Turkey publicly and, together with the United Arab Emirates, has supported Haftar in Libya. Not to mention that they support Greece in maritime areas. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates are the last Islamic countries that will gain access to absolute high technology from Turkey, and that is intentional. Both are very unpopular even within their Arab clique (The Arab League is a Joke).

Times change and they can align better with us.

 

[Strong AI]

Extremely unlikely. Egypt has repeatedly criticized Turkey publicly and, together with the United Arab Emirates, has supported Haftar in Libya. Not to mention that they support Greece in maritime areas. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates are the last Islamic countries that will gain access to absolute high technology from Turkey, and that is intentional. Both are very unpopular even within their Arab clique (The Arab League is a Joke).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1831736277491712121

 

[IC3M@N FX]

A trainer and a 5 Generation fighter jet are two different things. Egypt is unpredictable. The transfer of technology and participation in the project would be an enormous risk.
What can Egypt offer apart from money, which is not particularly abundant anyway? It would be just as easy to cooperate with Saudi Arabia, which has more than enough of it.

 

[Strong AI]

A trainer and a 5 Generation fighter jet are two different things. Egypt is unpredictable. The transfer of technology and participation in the project would be an enormous risk.
What can Egypt offer apart from money, which is not particularly abundant anyway? It would be just as easy to cooperate with Saudi Arabia, which has more than enough of it.

Will we have the same discussion after every new potential customer?

 

[Pokemonte13]

I mean selling is not that big of a deal although the possibility of isreali spy’s in Egypt would make me uncomfortable when they would have access to kaans sensors and honestly uae is nothing they wouldn’t use it against us but I’m against tech transfer only fuselage is ok just like the Americans did with us with the F35 and it’s not like they have an alternative option if they buy Chinese stuff they risk us sanctions and f35 are not available at the moment and till GCAP OR ( FCAS) are available (10y min) they have no choice but we also need the money and Indonesia or Pakistan won’t cut it

 

[Afif]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

I don't think that's the case. More likely there isn't enough trust with Egypt to provide them with high end sensitive technology. Türkiye shouldn't accept them into KAAN either.