TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar_TR

If the F110 engines cannot be procured, I believe we will have to resort to a rather risky course of action. That risky course is this: Delivering the Block 10 Kaans using immature TF35000 engines, which offer F110 thrust values. This would save the Kaan program from a complete collapse.

Even then, by my estimate, the Kaan program would be delayed by approximately two years. The first Kaans would be delivered in 2030, not 2028, at the best.
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However, if the F404 engines cannot be procured, the Hürjet program would certainly collapse. Because, a) There is no money or manpower to redesign the aircraft, as Temel Kotil has said; and b) Developing a new engine would take 10 years, at the best!
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I believe the USA will not finalize the F404 procurement until the fate of the Boeing T7 is clear. If T7 fails, i believe USA will deliver the F404s. Because in that case, the USA will also need Hürjet. I cannot predict what the USA will do regarding the F110. If the T7 doesn't fail, will the US deliver the F404s? Just like with the F110s, I can't predict that.

I agree with your second paragraph fully. My only addition would be the introduction of a EJ200 engine as an alternative. Since ITP of Spain has been instrumental in the development of a single engined and TVC version of this engine, it could be an alternative to F404. But it would still delay the serial production.

Regarding your last paragraph; although logical, US intends to sell 2000 of these trainers world wide. T7 is not supersonic and comparatively cheap. They have done nothing to hinder S Korea’s TA50 production which is similar to Hurjet. Unless they have a special animosity towards us, I can’t see them stopping delivery of these engines because of competition. But more likely will try to throw a spanner in the works supported by anti Turkiye lobbies in US administration.

Regarding your first paragraph; When it comes to the stage that KAAN B10s are going to be without engines, they will push TEI to deliver engines that can fly the plane even before the engine is fully matured. But with respect to thrust levels; the real issue still is not the thrust levels but the durability of parts. Before thrust levels this is the main area TEI will concentrate in the development stages. So first engines may not last as long as desired. But will gradually get to acceptable levels. (Remember Chinese WS10 lasting 250 hours then 500hours. Now they claim a life expectancy of 1000 to 1500 hours)

 

[TheInsider]

If we can get 40 Eurofighters and Kızılelma, Anka-3 and F-16 Özgür II deliveries starts around 2027 I'm ok with 20 block 10/20 KAANs untill 2032.

 

[hugh]

If we can get 40 Eurofighters and Kızılelma, Anka-3 and F-16 Özgür II deliveries starts around 2027 I'm ok with 20 block 10/20 KAANs untill 2032.

assuming both TF10000 and MURAD AESA are in volume production by 2027/2028

 

[Zafer]

So the plan is to go with foreign engines for the prototypes and make the 20 block 10 planes with foreign engines if there are foreign engines available and introduce national engines when foreign engines are no longer available no matter what level of maturity is achieved with the national engine at the time.

In any case we stick to a timeline when production is made starting in '28 and continues steadily so that we can satisfy the outstanding national demand and start delivering to foreign operators in '32.

So if we can run the national engine by the end of '26 and spend 3 years maturing it and preparing the engine production line we can introduce a first generation national Kaan engine with acceptable performance in time for production by the end of '29. We keep improving the engine as we go and make it world class by '32 export time. We can always upgrade TurAF deliveries with new batches of engines as we make improvements.

 

[boredaf]

You say that, but all the 6th-generation fighter jets are planned to be operated both manually and autonomously, and they will cost more than $ 100 million per plane.

6th gen is a decade away (at best) from being properly used and technology will, probably, improve by then but it simply does not exist right now. And those planes are most likely designed from the start to be that way; although I find it quite a bit redundant.

Making a completely unmanned version of a plane without all the systems that are required for a plane but irrelevant in a drone would lower the cost (and possibly production time), possibly lowers the weight of the plane and allows for more specialization.

 

[boredaf]

If Trump really wants to lift CAATSA, are there enough republicans to achieve that?

Yes, they control both the Senate and the House.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

It would have been strategically sound to design the Hürjet from the outset as a twin‑engine platform, powered by two TEI TF‑10000 engines. This configuration would have provided not only engine redundancy — a critical factor for naval operations — but also greater total thrust than a single F404. Such a design would have allowed the aircraft to be approximately 25% larger, improving internal volume for fuel, avionics, and even a small internal weapons bay capable of carrying three to four air‑to‑air missiles, thereby reducing its radar cross section (RCS) and enhancing survivability.

With a thrust‑to‑weight ratio between 0.9 and 1.1, depending on loadout and mission profile, and a combat radius in the range of 900–1000 km, this version of the Hürjet would have been slightly more expensive than the current design. However, it would have been capable of fulfilling a wider array of roles — including light air superiority, carrier‑borne operations, and limited strike missions — and could have partially replaced the F‑16 as the Turkish Air Force’s workhorse in certain missions. This approach would also have positioned the aircraft more competitively on the export market, particularly for navies and air forces seeking a compact, multirole, carrier‑capable jet in the light fighter class.

Furthermore, the decision to replace the GE F110 engine in the future with the domestically developed TEI TF‑35000 by around 2032 is also well‑founded. In the interim, the F110 remains a viable option, as its supply cannot easily be politically blocked by the United States. This is partly because Pakistan already operates the J‑10C equipped with the Chinese WS‑10C/D engine, which itself is derived from the F‑110/F‑101 family — the result of reverse‑engineering efforts in the 1990s with Israeli assistance. The WS‑10 matches the F‑110 in size, weight, diameter, and thrust class, and has evolved to include modern features like FADEC.

If necessary, Pakistan could supply the WS‑10 to Turkey, either under license or rebranded, effectively sidestepping direct Chinese involvement. Geopolitically, such an arrangement would exist in a gray zone, avoiding direct U.S. or Chinese scrutiny. Although the WS‑10 has a lower time‑between‑overhaul (roughly 2000–3000? hours compared to the F‑110’s 6000–8000), this limitation would be acceptable, since these engines would serve as an interim solution for the first 20–30 aircraft before transitioning fully to the TF‑35000.

 

[Spitfire9]

Aslo hurjet can be equiped with future Baykar 20k lbs engine or russian, chiba , europian one of US refuse to sell

Will add years of delay.

 

[Merzifonlu]

So the plan is to go with foreign engines for the prototypes and make the 20 block 10 planes with foreign engines if there are foreign engines available and introduce national engines when foreign engines are no longer available no matter what level of maturity is achieved with the national engine at the time.

There are two conditions for this plan to work.

1- The immature TF35000 engine must be capable of delivering the thrust values of the F110. In other words, we must be able to obtain at least 18,000 lbf dry thrust and 30,000 lbf wet thrust from the immature TF35000 engine.

2- The immature TF35000 engine must operate with sufficient reliability within the maintenance interval. Let's say the maintenance interval is 500 hours. We must be able to ensure that the engine will not explode during these 500 hours of flight time!

 

[Zafer]

There are two conditions for this plan to work.

1- The immature TF35000 engine must be capable of delivering the thrust values of the F110. In other words, we must be able to obtain at least 18,000 lbf dry thrust and 30,000 lbf wet thrust from the immature TF35000 engine.

2- The immature TF35000 engine must operate with sufficient reliability within the maintenance interval. Let's say the maintenance interval is 500 hours. We must be able to ensure that the engine will not explode during these 500 hours of flight time!

I feel confident TEI can deliver these requirements by '28. The engine's structural strength would be guarantied first, thrust level would be next. TBO hours would be stabilized at a respectable number going towards deployment.

China had problems manufacturing turbine blades at a good yield rate. We have no idea how well TEI will manage this situation but I am confident they are working for a good rate.

 

[Zafer]

One consideration about the Kaan engine development is whether TEI will employ the latest generation of turbine blade technology that they are working on or they will try out the previous generations that they already managed to make first. That is if they will employ single chrystal casting with cooling and coating or they will use additive technologies first. Or maybe there will be both and they can be offered as an option to different users. This is related to whether an early crop of engines can be made and used on an early batch of Kaan fighters which I can fondly call Prince Kaan.

 

[Yasar_TR]

One consideration about the Kaan engine development is whether TEI will employ the latest generation of turbine blade technology that they are working on or they will try out the previous generations that they already managed to make first. That is if they will employ single chrystal casting with cooling and coating or they will use additive technologies first. Or maybe there will be both and they can be kffered as an option to different users. This is related to whether an early crop of engines can be made and used on an early batch of Kaan fighter which I can fondly call Prince Kaan.

The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades. These are the blades that are subjected to extreme heat. Hence need single crystal tech.

The conventional fabrication process for single-crystal nickel-based superalloy materials is directional solidification, which is classified as “casting”. With the rapid development of additive manufacturing technologies, a novel process for fabricating single-crystal superalloys has become possible. But this is still in development phase.
Single crystal materials exhibit better high-temperature strength and creep resistance than polycrystalline materials. Thus, nickel-based superalloys have been produced to satisfy the requirements for aero-engines and gas-turbine blades
By using Laser powder feeding method it has been made possible to produce by additive manufacturing of single crystal blades under lab conditions. But recently by using electron beam powder bed fusion, a breakthrough has been achieved and it has been possible to additively manufacture single crystal blades as good as directionally solidified casting. This is a tech that was used first time in post 2016 under lab conditions.
Although Electron beam method has been found to be very good; blades manufactured through this process has different creep and crack formation parameters to directionally solidified single crystal blades.

LP turbine blades have been manufactured with additive technologies and even friction welded to form blisks. The air flow temperatures in LP turbine sections are considerably lower. Hence more forgiving and better tolerances. But still I don’t know if any engines used in current fighter jets use any LP or HP blades manufactured with additive technologies. (Some articles claim EJ200 has such LP blisk turbine blades. But it is unconfirmed)

If TEI is aspiring to produce a similar engine to F119 in output thrust levels, then 3rd generation single crystal blades are the way forward. There is no need to go for esoteric new technologies.
However, with the design parameters of TF6000 being a starting point, one can assume that the engine with such a bypass ratio and efficient cooling systems may not need the latest generation single crystal blades TEI has mustered to produce. This engine may produce the required thrust levels without pushing extremes. Real work lies in general engine durability.

LASER BEAM BLADE 3D PRINTING

ELECTRON BEAM POWDER BED FUSION

 

[Zafer]

The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades. These are the blades that are subjected to extreme heat. Hence need single crystal tech.

The conventional fabrication process for single-crystal nickel-based superalloy materials is directional solidification, which is classified as “casting”. With the rapid development of additive manufacturing technologies, a novel process for fabricating single-crystal superalloys has become possible. But this is still in development phase.
Single crystal materials exhibit better high-temperature strength and creep resistance than polycrystalline materials. Thus, nickel-based superalloys have been produced to satisfy the requirements for aero-engines and gas-turbine blades
By using Laser powder feeding method it has been made possible to produce by additive manufacturing of single crystal blades under lab conditions. But recently by using electron beam powder bed fusion, a breakthrough has been achieved and it has been possible to additively manufacture single crystal blades as good as directionally solidified casting. This is a tech that was used first time in post 2016 under lab conditions.
Although Electron beam method has been found to be very good; blades manufactured through this process has different creep and crack formation parameters to directionally solidified single crystal blades.

LP turbine blades have been manufactured with additive technologies and even friction welded to form blisks. The air flow temperatures in LP turbine sections are considerably lower. Hence more forgiving and better tolerances. But still I don’t know if any engines used in current fighter jets use any LP or HP blades manufactured with additive technologies. (Some articles claim EJ200 has such LP blisk turbine blades. But it is unconfirmed)

If TEI is aspiring to produce a similar engine to F119 in output thrust levels, then 3rd generation single crystal blades are the way forward. There is no need to go for esoteric new technologies.
However, with the design parameters of TF6000 being a starting point, one can assume that the engine with such a bypass ratio and efficient cooling systems may not need the latest generation single crystal blades TEI has mustered to produce. This engine may produce the required thrust levels without pushing extremes. Real work lies in general engine durability.

LASER BEAM BLADE 3D PRINTING

View attachment 76358


ELECTRON BEAM POWDER BED FUSION

View attachment 76359

I think TEI can make compressor blisks very well already by CNC machining. For turbine blades different technologies will give different performance levels at varying costs and production lead times. So having several different technologies going will be adventageus.

 

[Zafer]

Nickel alloy powders for additive manufacturing, which are subject to export license, will be developed in ATOM Project. Turbine parts in aviation engines are made from nickel based super alloys in order not to lose their strength under high load and temperature. In ATOM project, Inconel 718 and Inconel 625 powders for LAM (Laser Additive Manufacturing), and Inconel 718 powder for EBM (Electron Beam Melting) will be produced by the atomization process, characterized and validated through the samples.
The ATOM Project is funded by Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB), and Ermaksan is joined as a main sub-contractor. Ermaksan, which is one of the leading machine provider companies of Turkey and announced a powder bed laser melting additive system the ENA 250, will develop a system for powder manufacturing, and start producing powders on pilot scale.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/atom-en

YAKUT Project intends the acquisition of Selective Laser Melting, which is classified as a potential fabrication method of future in the group of additive manufacturing techniques, to the defense industry with an object to produce prototype components using Ni-based superalloys.
[...]
Within this scope, the integrated fabrication of combustion chamber that consists of 9 different parts involved in TEI TJ90 Turbojet engine has been successfully completed by utilizing the UNS N06625 Nickel alloy in powder form and obtained the required mechanical properties.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/technology-development/yakut-en

TEI - Kristal

www.tei.com.tr

@Zafer @Yasar_TR

I remember all these but I can't argue with "The additive technologies are not currently used in the manufacturing of HP turbine blades" arguement as I can't verify it at the moment. I remember that TEI achieved like 102% the quality of casting with additive and they are in the process of creating the entire materials supply chain moving on. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Zafer]

YAKUT Project

This name resonates with me as I personally had a Yakut Project of my own. I literally tried to make ruby in my senior year in high school. But I got one of the ingredients wrong and I only had budget for one go.

 

[TheInsider]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

 

[Huelague]

Could Spain also be interested in Kaan?

 

[Fairon]

Could Spain also be interested in Kaan?

if Kaan matures a bit more and we solve the engine problem, why not?

The Kaan project currently consists mostly of good wishes and intentions. For Spain(countries that alternative options to select) to get interested in Kaan, the project needs to show results or at least a good progress. Kaan is not like Hurjet at the moment.(Especially for the engines. There are no alternative engine available for Kaan on the market)

I am assuming FCAS will end up in failure though.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Egypt is expected to join the KAAN project after the Chinese reluctance to provide J-35 to Egypt. China values its relationship with Israel.

Extremely unlikely. Egypt has repeatedly criticized Turkey publicly and, together with the United Arab Emirates, has supported Haftar in Libya. Not to mention that they support Greece in maritime areas. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates are the last Islamic countries that will gain access to absolute high technology from Turkey, and that is intentional. Both are very unpopular even within their Arab clique (The Arab League is a Joke).

 

[Zafer]

Extremely unlikely. Egypt has repeatedly criticized Turkey publicly and, together with the United Arab Emirates, has supported Haftar in Libya. Not to mention that they support Greece in maritime areas. Egypt and the United Arab Emirates are the last Islamic countries that will gain access to absolute high technology from Turkey, and that is intentional. Both are very unpopular even within their Arab clique (The Arab League is a Joke).

Times change and they can align better with us.