TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Zafer]

Few years ago, I read that unit cost of F-35 was less than $ 80 mio. Thats affordable.

$110mn is more likely, which scared even Switzerland off

 

[Huelague]

A

$110mn is more likely, which scared even Switzerland off

Again,I read it few years ago (2019?), maybe on DefenseNews.

 

[Zafer]

A

Again,I read it few years ago (2019?), maybe on DefenseNews.

I read this a few days ago and Switzerland is actually considering cutting their F35 program short because of increased prices.

 

[Sanchez]

Few years ago, I read that unit cost of F-35 was less than $ 80 mio. Thats affordable.

Flyaway cost is only like 1/5 of an aircraft's actual cost.

There are multiple metrics to figure this out and project some numbers, these metrics include even the fuel burned and the inflation in to the mix to come up with a lifecycle cost.

Canadian budget office came to 74 billion CAD for 88 aircraft over 45 years. so that's 608 million USD per aircraft during its entire 45 year lifespan.

US GAO came to 2.1 trillion USD for the entire 94 year projected lifecycle of the program for 2454 aircraft. About half of that 2.1 trillion is projected inflation for the next 90 years. If we take a per unit basis, it's 815 million USD per aircraft over the entirety of the program.

F-35 has the fortune to be the most produced aircraft of this century and it will most likely keep that record with 1200 aircraft built so far. So per how mathematics works, it will always be the cheapest to procure but its related operating costs mostly remain high. Because of added complexity in every kind of operating procedures, security needs, fuel costs etc.

We don't know how much Kaan will cost, only start of a number we have is the 10 billion USD figure for Indonesia for 48 aircraft. This most probably doesn't include any weapons but does include at least some part of lifecycle costs for training, maintenance etc. That would mean a single Kaan for Indonesia will at least cost 208 million USD; and that is probably just a starting number, it's only what TAI and SSB will sell to Indonesia, not what Indonesia will actually pay for over the type's lifecycle.

 

[Spitfire9]

I read this a few days ago and Switzerland is actually considering cutting their F35 program short because of increased prices.

I thought it was the operational cost that was the killer. However. if Switzerland decides it no longer wants to buy F-35 and increased prices give it an opportunity to halt its F-35 programme, let it exercise its choice.

 

[uçuyorum]

Afaik F35 80 mil figure is not adjusted to inflation so misleading. But also still comes eith 35000$ + per hour to fly. That's 7 mil for 200 hours per year or 70 mil for 10 years.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Few years ago, I read that unit cost of F-35 was less than $ 80 mio. Thats affordable.

Which version of the F-35 ? Also more than a thousand were already built, bringing the price down.

 

[Huelague]

Which version of the F-35 ? Also more than a thousand were already built, bringing the price down.

I don’t remember, just it was a Scandinavian country.

 

[Umigami]

Indonesian Republikorp involvement in Kaan program.

Indonesia Signs Strategic Partnership for KAAN Fifth-Generation Fighter Jets

The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (KEMHAN RI) has formalized a strategic agreement with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TUSAŞ) for the procurement of up to 48 KAAN fifth-generation fighter jets.

This historic agreement not only covers the acquisition of low-observable, multi-role fighter aircraft for the Indonesian Air Force (TNI AU), but also provides a complete ecosystem encompassing training, technical support, and long-term maintenance in-house.

The KAAN fighter jet is designed as a high-performance, all-weather, twin-engine air superiority aircraft. With high maneuverability, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, and an internal weapons bay to maintain a stealth profile, the KAAN is part of a sophisticated fifth-generation fighter aircraft capable of handling modern air scenarios.

The 48 KAANs will be produced in a special "Indonesian Variant" configuration with Turkish-made engines.

Indonesia will also build and operate a local flight simulator to support training and system integration.

This package includes comprehensive training for pilots, technicians, and ground crew, as well as long-term after-sales service, technical engineering support, and integrated logistics.

Two national defense industry entities, PT Republik Aero Dirgantara (PT RAD) and PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI), have been appointed as the main partners in the domestic implementation of this program.

PT RAD: National Infrastructure, Investment, & Training As a subsidiary of Republikorp, PT RAD will be responsible for:

- Construction of a primary MRO (Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul) facility for KAAN fighter jets in Indonesia.
- Operation of a training center and simulator to support the readiness of Indonesian Air Force personnel.
- Increasing independent and sustainable domestic support capacity.

“As the appointed PT, we are ready to be the main bridge for KAAN technology transfer to Indonesia. This is a strategic momentum to bring manufacturing capabilities and increase independent domestic support capacity,” said Norman Joesoef, Chairman of Republikorp.

PTDI, as a national strategic State-Owned Enterprise (BUMN), plays a crucial role in:

- Final assembly of some KAAN units at PTDI facilities.
- Engineering collaboration and technology sharing with TUSAŞ.
- Technical readiness and industrial maintenance, to strengthen national logistics support.

With the technological leadership of TUSAŞ as OEM and design authority, and investment and industrial contributions from PT RAD and PTDI, Indonesia is moving forward as a nation capable of independently developing and maintaining advanced air defense systems.

This collaborative structure reflects a major transformation in Indonesia's defense industry—from a purchasing nation to a developer and owner of future strategic air defense capabilities.

REPUBLIKORP

REPUBLIKORP drives the future of defense through technological innovation, international cooperation, and the comprehensive development of tailor-made, military-grade systems. We adapt to complex security missions and evolving challenges, delivering advanced solutions to protect our national...

www.republikorp.com

 

[Umigami]

The 48 KAANs will be produced in a special "Indonesian Variant" configuration with Turkish-made engines.

I hope it's not that different from the original

 

[Iskander]

You say 500 KAAN sales. How do you come up with that number rather than 400 or 300? Who do you think will buy and in what numbers? Like you I think there may be Muslim states that will be attracted to buy KAAN. Very importantly, too, if a Turkish engine is used, it removes the problem of the US blocking supply by refusing to allow supply with a US engine.

I see that 500 KAAN seems unrealistic to many.
A lot will depend on whether it will be successful in air combat or not.
Look, who wanted to buy the Bayraktar TB-2 by 2020? No one. But after its incredible combat successes in Syria and Libya, especially in the Karabakh war, the situation has completely changed. It became so famous in the world that a song was composed in its honor. Who could believe that even NATO countries would buy UAVs from Turkey?
But then it turned out that dozens of countries had to line up in long queues for Turkish UAVs. Moreover, several countries have already abandoned UAVs purchased from Iran and China and are successfully operating Bayraktar.
Who could have said 5 years ago that Turkey would become the world leader in UAV sales?
Who knows, maybe some countries will prefer the KAAN F-35

 

[Umigami]

Isn't it great if ITP Aero to join force to develop TF35000?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1957344479834476885

 

[Zafer]

Isn't it great if ITP Aero to join force to develop TF35000?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1957344479834476885

What can the ITP offer for the making of the TF35000 engine at this stage: Design work is already almost done; prototype is expected to be ignited in a year's time. Production work share seems like a natural ask if Spain also wants to be a partner in the Kaan project.

 

[uçuyorum]

What can the ITP offer for the making of the TF35000 engine at this stage: Design work is already almost done; prototype is expected to be ignited in a year's time. Prodoction work share seems like a natural ask if Spain also wants to be a partner in the Kaan project.

Engine has a long way to go. They can certainly help in design review and improvements

 

[Yasar_TR]

Engine has a long way to go. They can certainly help in design review and improvements

100% correct.
ITP Aero is an ex Rolls Royce company. ITP were the ones that developed and manufactured the prototype of the TVC version (for the Indian market) of the EJ200 engine that propels Typhoons.
Gobally with 5000 personnel and 1.9 billion dollar turnover, they are a big entity.
Having direct access to big engine manufacturers like RR, P&W, GE and Safran they are well positioned for latest techno availability.
They would definitely be a much more useful partners than Indonesia, Pakistan and Azerbaijan in terms of technology access.

About ITP Aero – Global leader in aerospace propulsión

www.itpaero.com

But this is still very premature as there has been no such approach by the Spanish authorities. Apart from some Spanish media making news, nothing concrete is there.

 

[Zafer]

Why would anyone get someone else involved in his business if he can get it done solo. Every partnership has its downsides and Europe is a big example of it.

 

[Ahlatshah]

Why would anyone get someone else involved in his business if he can get it done solo. Every partnership has its downsides and Europe is a big example of it.

Some reasons:
- Time: If a competent company get involved, overcoming technical difficulties would be much faster

- Money: Development costs will be divided

- Economics of scale: The more it is produced, the lower the price becomes.

- Marketability: Sellling countries like Spain can open other markets

and so on...

I will continue to say, we have to sell Kaan, otherwise it could become too expensive, there is no other way. In order to do that, getting countries as partner must be considered. Especially countries like Spain. Even US is doing that, despite doing everything.

PS: I dont know the Spain business is true or not, but nowadays these rumors are somewhat increasing. It would be a dream scenario for me if ITP and Spain get involved

 

[Zafer]

Some reasons:
- Time: If a competent company get involved, overcoming technical difficulties would be much faster

- Money: Development costs will be divided

- Economics of scale: The more it is produced, the lower the price becomes.

- Marketability: Sellling countries like Spain can open other markets

and so on...

I will continue to say, we have to sell Kaan, otherwise it could become too expensive, there is no other way. In order to do that, getting countries as partner must be considered. Especially countries like Spain. Even US is doing that, despite doing everything.

PS: I dont know the Spain business is true or not, but nowadays these rumors are somewhat increasing. It would be a dream scenario for me if ITP and Spain get involved

We have been through this process with the UK and it didn't work. We have to do the engine solo. We can take longer than we wish to but we end up with an unshared capability that we own.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Why would anyone get someone else involved in his business if he can get it done solo. Every partnership has its downsides and Europe is a big example of it.

The bold lettered bit is the operative statement there.

We know how to play football in Turkey. Heck! We were 3rd best in the world once. But still have many foreign players in every team. Even the national team is managed by a foreigner.

Analogy to one side; having a partner that can look at it from a different angle of looking at solving problems is always a plus.
When TEI is new to building such a complex engine, and a competent and quick to access eco system is not in place, having a new partner that can easily fill that position is priceless.
When most of the quickly easily available parts are suddenly subject to hidden embargoes and you have to manufacture even the simplest part yourself it becomes an expensive and lengthy process. Having a partner that is exempt from it makes it all the more feasible.

Important point is for TEI and TRMotor to keep their hold on to IP rights and majority share of actual production and design rights in house.

 

[Zafer]

The bold lettered bit is the operative statement there.

We know how to play football in Turkey. Heck! We were 3rd best in the world once. But still have many foreign players in every team. Even the national team is managed by a foreigner.

Analogy to one side; having a partner that can look at it from a different angle of looking at solving problems is always a plus.
When TEI is new to building such a complex engine, and a competent and quick to access eco system is not in place, having a new partner that can easily fill that position is priceless.
When most of the quickly easily available parts are suddenly subject to hidden embargoes and you have to manufacture even the simplest part yourself it becomes an expensive and lengthy process. Having a partner that is exempt from it makes it all the more feasible.

Important point is for TEI and TRMotor to keep their hold on to IP rights and majority share of actual production and design rights in house.

Lets talk after the TF35000 engine gets ignited; if the smoke comes out white, "no, we are good", if it comes out black we may want to talk partnership in development. In any case production work share should be considered if Spain wants to be a partner in the Kaan Project.