TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[IC3M@N FX]

The knocking is already starting, but people don't say it out loud because they're ashamed... and a bit annoyed that they have to knock because they have to swallow their pride. Mostly Germany has a very big inhibition to take this step.

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Turkey <-> UK

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Turkey <-> Italy

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Turkey <-> Spain

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Turkey <-> Germany it's only a matter of time, but they'll get less than everyone else; they haven't behaved like partners.

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Turkey <-> France

Even for those who enjoy frog legs, the ice is getting thinner and thinner. Sooner or later, they too will come and abandon the Greeks... Power attracts them.
The French will also play their part, otherwise a European security architecture will be created without them.

 

[Huelague]

The France/Germany/Spain FCAS programme is reported to be suffering from problems regarding French/German co-operation. If it does not go ahead, might Spain be able to contribute usefully to KAAN (I don't just mean funding) and vice versa? Could there be some kind of synergy? I recall that Spain worked on developing a vectored thrust system for the EJ200 engine for Eurofighter.

Good point. Interestingly the only option to rescue their project is to invite Türkiye in to the project.

 

[Huelague]

Bro, that is a a far fetched wish if you ask me. Not all Western countries are humble enough and have the humility to work with a “Muslim” and supposedly “inferior in technology” country like Turkey. Not every western country is a Spain!
Italy has only started to work with Baykar after a de facto situation that pushed Leonardo in to partnership after Baykar’s purchase of Piaggio.

Just go online and ask Google in any which way for “best supersonic trainer jets” . You will not find Hurjet amongst them. Even Google is biased.

There are still many western technocrats that don’t believe Turkey is capable of serially building a jet fighter. Never mind a stealth jet fighter. You can not overcome this kind of bigotry over night. It will take time. Many people still don’t believe TEI can build a turbofan engine that can propel Kaan jet fighter.
When our Kaan start flying next year multiple times and finally with TF35000, then we may see more of those sceptics coming round and knocking on our doors.

Every EU country is looking for a strategic partner to counter Russia, as far as they are not in the same boat with Russian. US seems not to be the reliable partner as they were in the past. I can only see one real reliable and strong partner who is not afraid of Russia, with a strong defense industry and geopolitical position and influence.

Sone EU member, especially Germany and other arrogant and Islamophobe countries, who don’t want to see facts, are now not more able to missed hard fact and reality (Realpolitik). Apart from UK, France and Germany(?) who are also able to develop a 6. Gen fighter jet? Maybe a country who develop a 5. Gen fighter jet right now?

Few days ago, I watched a video about German and Türkiye co-operation, on a Bus system. They talked about “Alman bilgi, and Türk zekasi.” This synergy can be very fruitful if they prejudiced wipe aside. Only Political will matters here.

 

[Spitfire9]

Good point. Interestingly the only option to rescue their project is to invite Türkiye in to the project.

Developing a 5G aircraft must be challenging. Sounds like you suggest adding a 6G, too, at the same time! Sounds like overstretch to me.

 

[Huelague]

Developing a 5G aircraft must be challenging. Sounds like you suggest adding a 6G, too, at the same time! Sounds like overstretch to me.

No. For Türkiye, to develop and build a 5. Gen. Fighter jet is way much harder than to build a 6. Gen after our 5. Gen. The reason is simple. To build a 5. Gen fighter jet from scratch without much knowledge, is a really mess.

From 5. to a 6. Gen is not a quantum leap. There is nothing new on this planes. Only mess is, the current technology we have right now, to put into the jet.

One more point. You can bet on it, if we finished the job (only by producing a prototype), we will work on the next (6.G jet, it’s the nature of business).

 

[Huelague]

Looks matured.

Radom

 

[Pilatino]

We Should Stop Calling KAAN a “5th Generation” Fighter

We really need to drop the “5th generation” label when talking about KAAN, because it actually undersells the entire system. The term locks KAAN into an F-22/F-35 comparison cycle that doesn’t reflect what Türkiye is building today.

KAAN is not a standalone fighter — it’s the core of a next-generation air dominance ecosystem that includes Kızılelma, Anka-3, Super Şimşek, advanced EW suites, national AESA radar, AI-enabled mission systems, and Loyal Wingman operations that most “6th gen” programs have not even demonstrated yet.

By calling it “5th gen,” we unintentionally play into the PR narrative of FCAS/GCAP, letting them brand their PowerPoint concepts as “6th gen” while our actual flying platforms are framed as “one step behind.”

KAAN is much closer to what the next generation of air combat looks like — networked, AI-native, unmanned–manned synergistic, and designed for systems warfare, not just kinematic superiority.

This is why we should simply call it what it is:

KAAN — Türkiye’s Next-Generation Air Dominance System.

Not 5th gen.
Not 4.75 gen.
Just next generation, because that’s exactly what it is.

 

[Merzifonlu]

By calling it “5th gen,” we unintentionally play into the PR narrative of FCAS/GCAP, letting them brand their PowerPoint concepts as “6th gen” while our actual flying platforms are framed as “one step behind.”

Let everyone think Kaan is "one step behind". It's actually much better for us.

 

[Yasar_TR]

We Should Stop Calling KAAN a “5th Generation” Fighter

We should first come down to Earth and not allow what we are building to go to our heads. Proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Let us first get this bird to fly with all possible bells and whistles we can furnish it with.
We don’t even have a final prototype that can fly. All we are talking about is what it is going to be. Let us realise it first and let the final product speak for it self.
Great achievement that Kaan flew twice, for a country that did not have the technology to build a jet fighter a couple of decades ago. But let us first, realise everything we are planning to do. Then start discussing what generation plane we are building. Every technical innovation you are mentioning here can be retrofitted to any 5th generation plane. That doesn’t make that plane a generation above the rest. It is a generation ahead if what it has, can not be retrofitted to the previous version.

 

[Pilatino]

We should first come down to Earth and not allow what we are building to go to our heads. Proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Let us first get this bird to fly with all possible bells and whistles we can furnish it with.
We don’t even have a final prototype that can fly. All we are talking about is what it is going to be. Let us realise it first and let the final product speak for it self.
Great achievement that Kaan flew twice, for a country that did not have the technology to build a jet fighter a couple of decades ago. But let us first, realise everything we are planning to do. Then start discussing what generation plane we are building. Every technical innovation you are mentioning here can be retrofitted to any 5th generation plane. That doesn’t make that plane a generation above the rest. It is a generation ahead if what it has can not be retrofitted to the previous version.

You’re right that we shouldn’t get carried away KAAN still has to fly in its final form and prove everything in practice. No disagreement there.

But my point isn’t “KAAN is already 6th gen.”
The issue is that calling it “5th generation” limits the program before it even matures, while FCAS/GCAP freely call themselves “6th gen” without a single prototype in the air.

The “generation” system is mostly a marketing framework, not strict engineering.
KAAN’s architecture like native MUM-T design, stealth shaping, high-power avionics, ecosystem integration with Kızılelma/Anka-3 is built in from day one. These aren’t simple retrofits.

So yes, let the final aircraft speak for itself. However, we also don’t need to box it into a term that undersells what Türkiye is actually trying to build.
That’s why calling it simply “next generation” is more accurate and avoids giving rivals a free PR advantage.

 

[Sanchez]

The “generation” system is mostly a marketing framework, not strict engineering

It isn't, but it was also never was a set list. It frames American fighter aircraft since 60s, that's it.

Calling Kaan a Next Gen fighter is suitable. It doesn't matter if it's in service or not, it's a next gen fighter in development. If it's cancelled tomorrow, it will be a cancelled next gen fighter. It's current development stage has no bearing on its generation or the future capabilities set for it when it enters service.

 

[Pilatino]

Optimism is good but lets do a reality check.
Fact is that the KAAN is nothing yet,it has flown for 15 minutes twice with an ''inferior'' foreign engine.
You cannot call the KAAN 5th gen with the F110 engine which is another fact.
As @Yasar_TR abi already stated,before we have an actual combat ready KAAN fighter jet performing like a next gen(5th gen) supposed to be performing we cannot call it anything.

I repeat, my point isn’t about today’s status.
It’s about how we frame the program as it develops.

KAAN's generation should defined by its final architecture and its rivals' claims, not the temporary test engine.

F-22 and F-35 prototypes also flew early with foreign or downgraded engines, incomplete avionics, and missing systems — yet nobody said “they are nothing yet, so they are not 5th gen.”

Prototype stages are always incomplete by definition.

What matters is:

stealth shaping and internal bays

native MUM-T design

high-power avionics architecture

low-observable materials

sensor fusion

the ecosystem it will operate in (Kızılelma, Anka-3, etc.)


These are built-in.
Engines and missing systems are temporary and will be replaced during testing phases.

So no, KAAN isn’t 5th gen today.
But locking it into a lesser label just because it is still in the prototype phase is also misleading.

The simplest and most accurate approach is:

Shall we let it mature, and call it “next generation” until it reaches full capability.

This avoids overhyping, avoids underselling, and keeps expectations realistic at the same time without making mistakes that can work against us.

 

[2033]

When I think of the sixth generation, the first things that come to mind are the tailless design and the “adaptive cycle engine.”

Kaan will undoubtedly be the fifth generation, but some of its features may be from the sixth generation.

 

[Pilatino]

First YF22 that flew in 1990 had 2 x GE YF120 variable cycle engines. Not foreign ones. They were 30000lbf class engines.
Nobody said anything. Because, even though the first flight was made public, nobody knew much of the details of the program that really mattered.

KAAN is definitely NOT nothing. It is a BIG thing for us. Any one that tries to down talk Kaan is at wrong. It has flown; albeit with downgraded engines. But it is here, and is the backbone of our next generation airforce.

I guess when very little news is coming through related to KAAN, has made everyone to talk about its generation status now. But as per @Merzifonlu has said, let everyone know little about it now. It is better. When it is ready, rest assured, it WILL make itself known to the world.

Great points and I think this also shows why calling KAAN “just a 5th gen” is actually counterproductive.
We all seem to agree that the program is far beyond a simple checklist definition, just like YF-22 was in its early days.

Labeling it strictly as “5th gen” undersells the ambition, the roadmap, and the tech stack being built.
Better to let KAAN define its own place when the time comes, and it will.

Structurally, it sports a tailless design and a highly stealthy airframe, features that weren’t possible in earlier generations. Beyond that, there’s nothing the 6th generation offers that the 5th couldn’t, including variable-cycle engines. Another big plus of tailless design is the altitude edge. With the fuselage made almost entirely from a single-piece delta wing, it produces tremendous lift.

The tailless argument is massively overstated. Neither FCAS nor GCAP the very programs marketed as “6th generation” are tailless. Both have vertical stabilizers, and GCAP even has a more conventional tail arrangement.

So tying “6th gen” strictly to a tailless delta layout doesn’t hold up technically or logically. Tailless designs can offer advantages in stealth and high-altitude performance, but they are not a requirement for a next-generation platform.

Calling KAAN “5th gen” actually undersells our own work. We’re locking ourselves into a lower category while the rest of the world freely brands unfinished prototypes as next gen without meeting any objective criteria.

In a way, we’re doing a global-scale psyops against ourselves by repeating the enemy’s framing. There’s no reason to handicap our own program with labels that even the West doesn’t follow consistently.

The safest, most accurate term is simply:

KAAN: Türkiye’s next-generation fighter.

 

[Spitfire9]

The safest, most accurate term is simply:

KAAN: Türkiye’s next-generation fighter.

Even better, to remove all generational debate:

KAAN: Türkiye’s next fighter.

 

[Iskander]

Even better, to remove all generational debate:

KAAN: Türkiye’s next fighter.

So, what were its predecessors?
Unfortunately, compared to a handful of aviation powers, Turkish aviation's history isn't all that rich.
The same was true with the Devrim car.
Frankly, the creation of the Hurjet surprised me.
But after the Hurjet, I had complete confidence in KAAN's success.

 

[Quasar]

So, what were its predecessors?
Unfortunately, compared to a handful of aviation powers, Turkish aviation's history isn't all that rich.
The same was true with the Devrim car.
Frankly, even the creation of the Hurjet surprised me.
But after the Hurjet, I had complete confidence in KAAN's success.

I was about to write but then I have changed my mind since I dont want to overdramatize the situation but, with all clarity the reality is every single person taking part in KAAN project deserves the highest praise possible considering the fact that they are on their way to achieve something unprecedented.... no need to be humble

​

 

[Afif]

Calling KAAN “5th gen” actually undersells our own work.

5 gen definition doesn't undersell KAAN's work or ambition.

5th gen isn't strict term in itself. F35 and J20S are both going to control loyal wingman.

We’re locking ourselves into a lower category while the rest of the world freely brands unfinished prototypes as next gen without meeting any objective criteria.

Unlikely, given those very few countries (that are building 'next gen' platforms) doesn't have any less credibility in defence aviation compared to Turkiye if not more.

 

[Pilatino]

5 gen definition doesn't undersell KAAN's work or ambition.

5th gen isn't strict term in itself. F35 and J20S are both going to control loyal wingman.




Unlikely, given those very few countries (that are building 'next gen' platforms) doesn't have any less credibility in defence aviation compared to Turkiye if not more.

I get your point but what I mean is this:

“5th gen” isn’t wrong, it’s just limiting.
Yes, the term isn’t strict, and yes, other 5th gens also command loyal wingmen. That part is true.

But the issue isn’t the definition... it’s the perception game.

Other countries freely call unfinished prototypes “next gen” because they understand that branding shapes expectations, funding, political support, and export potential long before the aircraft is complete.

We’re the only ones voluntarily putting our own project into a smaller box.
Not because KAAN lacks ambition, but because we downplay it.

Credibility isn’t the problem.
Türkiye today has more credibility in aerospace than many assume and certainly enough to describe KAAN as a next-gen program in development, the same way GCAP, FCAS, NGAD or even Checkmate are framed.

So the point is not “KAAN can’t be 5th gen.”

The point is:

Why limit ourselves when others don’t?

If everyone else is playing the perception game while we voluntarily undersell our own work, I just can’t accept that, so I’ll do everything I can to fix it. Better late than never.

 

[boredaf]

If everyone else is playing the perception game while we voluntarily undersell our own work, I just can’t accept that, so I’ll do everything I can to fix it. Better late than never.

This is such a weird hang up to have and a hill to die on. Whether arbitrary or not, fighter jet generations have been a part of aviation terminology for 3 or 4 decades and they are universally accepted and used. You have a problem with calling Kaan a 5th gen fighter? Go and tell that to Tusas. And SSB. And Air force. And everyone in between because everyone and their mums are calling it a 5th gen plane.

And those other countries are calling their new projects "next gen" because all of them, well maybe except for Su-75, are working on 6th gen aircrafts and 6 comes after 5. China has already been flying theirs, probably US as well and while those two are leading the way, two European coalitions are still working on theirs; but the crux of the matter is, all of them are planning on those jets to be different than the 5th gen fighters they already have.

I mean, if you want to shadowbox and argue online why it should be called "next gen" while people in charge of the project are calling it 5th gen, go ahead mate, its your life after all but there has to be a better use of your time, I hope.