TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri

what is the minimum requirement an engine needs to satisfy before it's integrated with a platform? is hitting certain thrust targets enough to give the go?

Well, meeting thrust (dry and wet) alone is insufficient.

Even with raw "max" thrust met, there are operating conditions of interest (ramping A to B, sustaining at B etc.... at various ambient pressures from different altitudes/velocities etc) that have their own requirements...the ability to do this over and over etc....and the feedback design loop on the engine in end.

The engine has to have sufficient reliability from all of this impact (mean time between overhaul is just one measure, one can dry run the engine some X number of times, open it up and get an idea of working part damage accumulation etc). There may be a target here say between 1000 - 3000 flight hours. Below which the operating costs get pricey basically given the downtimes over life cycle.

Then of course things like total weight, volume etc have to be within original requirements too. These limit scope of workaround solutions that may arise etc given engines are integral in fuselage rather than mounted on wing etc.

It is very different to say commercial engines that have more forgiving + predictable operating parameters....that dont have to go supersonic in first place...after maximum efficiency through much larger bypass ratio fan etc, external mount design and so on.... and have the much longer MTBO times and economies of scale to harness as result but a new set of design pressures too (getting a corolla optimal vs a ferrari etc)
 

hugh

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Well, meeting thrust (dry and wet) alone is insufficient.

Even with raw "max" thrust met, there are operating conditions of interest (ramping A to B, sustaining at B etc.... at various ambient pressures from different altitudes/velocities etc) that have their own requirements...the ability to do this over and over etc....and the feedback design loop on the engine in end.

The engine has to have sufficient reliability from all of this impact (mean time between overhaul is just one measure, one can dry run the engine some X number of times, open it up and get an idea of working part damage accumulation etc). There may be a target here say between 1000 - 3000 flight hours. Below which the operating costs get pricey basically given the downtimes over life cycle.

Then of course things like total weight, volume etc have to be within original requirements too. These limit scope of workaround solutions that may arise etc given engines are integral in fuselage rather than mounted on wing etc.

It is very different to say commercial engines that have more forgiving + predictable operating parameters....that dont have to go supersonic in first place...after maximum efficiency through much larger bypass ratio fan etc, external mount design and so on.... and have the much longer MTBO times and economies of scale to harness as result but a new set of design pressures too (getting a corolla optimal vs a ferrari etc)

Much appreciated (y)

can you also give us a perspective on military turbofan testing campaign? by that I mean, assume the company has designed and built the first prototype and we fired the engine the first time. Between the first firing and delivery into service, what percentage of engineering hours are spent on which phase of the testing? Is reaching the rated thrust take the bulk of the work? I asked some LLMs how much time do turbofan manufacturers take to reach the engine's thrust target and the answers were all over the place. Obviously, I ask these questions in context of TF6000 and TF35k and I know the technological readiness of TEI and the GE, RR etc. vastly different but i just wanna gain some perspective on the problem and not get lost in the never-ending speculations.
 

Nilgiri

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Much appreciated (y)

can you also give us a perspective on military turbofan testing campaign? by that I mean, assume the company has designed and built the first prototype and we fired the engine the first time. Between the first firing and delivery into service, what percentage of engineering hours are spent on which phase of the testing? Is reaching the rated thrust take the bulk of the work? I asked some LLMs how much time do turbofan manufacturers take to reach the engine's thrust target and the answers were all over the place. Obviously, I ask these questions in context of TF6000 and TF35k and I know the technological readiness of TEI and the GE, RR etc. vastly different but i just wanna gain some perspective on the problem and not get lost in the never-ending speculations.

It is pretty hard to put numbers to this. The commercial domain is more transparent one given the economies of scale (MRO workshops etc and raw number of flight hours daily compared to all airforces put together in a year etc).

Think about China for example in its ferrari vs corolla ecosystem here (military vs commercial)....given the progress in WS military turbofans since this century start (from the 80s,90s the base a mix of soviet and western).

Commercial will be more transparent to track and measure: COMAC with LEAP vs domestic equivalent over next 20 years etc... it boils down to total capital (old, current, new...machinery, innovation, experience) leverage and inertias between China and Western one.

Military one is far more non-transparent. There could be lot of "good enough" and produce twice engines (have a spare etc) in raw way to handle MTBO issues (costs are not an issue) But there is a hit in the intermediate overhauls (needed...or reliability impact from it being foregone) along the way too. This is what any airforce + relative def. establishment wouldn't advertise when it makes compromise to get the base indigenous "start" squared away however it deems to.

Other allied airforces (to PRC) also keep close to chest etc...and then its up to whomever regd how much we by and large accept everything face value past that. No airforce is going to large scale operate both and release both data streams transparently in some way etc.

i.e similar reason Russian (Soviet) military turbofans only had so much impact on commercial international domain. Capital conversion from one to the other was limited in end....from that we can adjudge the military one was not/is qualitatively the same as western peer either.

What I can tell you though is engine reliability + efficiency (it is hard to separate these neatly) in the commercial domain is like a 80% design time + cost thing. Maybe higher than that. GE going for detailed design in lubricating oil lines compared to Pratt (which felt more promise in geared turbofan to deploy capital there) for the 1% improvements that add up in savings etc. These things dont really enter the military domain. This is from the basic "thrust" design long being settled in 20th century....i.e we have iterative means only now to get closer to carnot peak.

If a miltary (Soviet, Russian, Chinese) wants to simply get 1000 "good enough" out there for warplanes and take some hit on that, you can maybe reduce to 50 - 50.

I doubt these days its going to go much lower than that, there is simply much more other capital locked into each military jet (radars, missiles, sensors, integration) these days to be chokepointed by the powerplant reliability. i.e the Mig-21 model is not there anymore anywhere.

So in end it depends on Turkish airforce top decision makers (when it comes to engineering) and how TEI works with capital they got at hand.
 

Merzifonlu

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FCAS is dead...... :D
It didn't surprise me. An arms partnership involving Germany is very difficult to sustain. Because Germany isn't an independent country. GCAP is next, that program will also collapse, you'll see. This time, the reason for the collapse will be Japan. Japan will change its mind halfway through and turn to the F-47.

If it were possible, things would have progressed much more smoothly in a Turkey+UK+Spain+Italy partnership. But this partnership will never happen because of UK.
 

Oublious

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It didn't surprise me. An arms partnership involving Germany is very difficult to sustain. Because Germany isn't an independent country. GCAP is next, that program will also collapse, you'll see. This time, the reason for the collapse will be Japan. Japan will change its mind halfway through and turn to the F-47.

If it were possible, things would have progressed much more smoothly in a Turkey+UK+Spain+Italy partnership. But this partnership will never happen because of UK.


They want to use KSA as a money pit for ther project, what i have read about GCAP is that Japan do not want share ther 33% work. Japan told to Italians and British you can share your work with KSA :D . KSA can invest only, so if Germany goes to GCAP what will Japan say? The scenario what you write can happen to, ther is to much people involved thats why ther is only 1 captain needed. Partners with this scale projects is difficult.
 

Merzifonlu

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Their is to much people involved thats why ther is only 1 captain needed. Partners with this scale projects is difficult.
The problem isn't the lack of "a captain" in these projects. The UK could be the captain for GCAP, and France for FCAS, if needed. The problem is that the other two main partners, Germany and Japan, are extremely unreliable. These countries are very vulnerable to pressure from the USA. The USA could easily sabotage both projects by co-opting them.

Oh, and by the way, these "captains" also have their own problem from our perspective. They are very arrogant towards us.
 

Sanchez

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Oh, and by the way, these "captains" also have their own problem from our perspective. They are very arrogant towards us.
That's not all related to how the programs are run.

The UK could be the captain for GCAP, and France for FCAS, if needed. The problem is that the other two main partners, Germany and Japan, are extremely unreliable
Why would Germany fund development and pour billions into it to create a jet for French needs without answering German needs. This is the gist of the issue. They are supposed to be equal partners; why should France take the lead on a project and drive it towards a CATOBAR and nuclear capable jet when Germany doesn't need any of that.
 

hugh

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It didn't surprise me. An arms partnership involving Germany is very difficult to sustain. Because Germany isn't an independent country. GCAP is next, that program will also collapse, you'll see. This time, the reason for the collapse will be Japan. Japan will change its mind halfway through and turn to the F-47.

If it were possible, things would have progressed much more smoothly in a Turkey+UK+Spain+Italy partnership. But this partnership will never happen because of UK.
what partnership model could we offer when we're so far in development? The aircraft's sensor suit is already developed, its engine is in CDR and we started printing KAAN prototypes. Time will tell but maybe having no partner was a blessing for us. Having one chef in the kitchen gives us tremendous speed of execution compared to european projects. It worked well for us so far.
 

Huelague

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It didn't surprise me. An arms partnership involving Germany is very difficult to sustain. Because Germany isn't an independent country. GCAP is next, that program will also collapse, you'll see. This time, the reason for the collapse will be Japan. Japan will change its mind halfway through and turn to the F-47.

If it were possible, things would have progressed much more smoothly in a Turkey+UK+Spain+Italy partnership. But this partnership will never happen because of UK.
Dont forget Japan.
 

Huelague

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what partnership model could we offer when we're so far in development? The aircraft's sensor suit is already developed, its engine is in CDR and we started printing KAAN prototypes. Time will tell but maybe having no partner was a blessing for us. Having one chef in the kitchen gives us tremendous speed of execution compared to european projects. It worked well for us so far.
He talked about a 6 Gen. aircraft , not Kaan.
 

boredaf

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Any idea how fast jets are matured from prototype to serial production?
How is that relevant to the engine conversation? If you want to compare timelines, check how long does it take to design, build, test (both on the ground and in air) then start producing a jet engine, especially one that is supposed to power a 5th gen fighter, high enough numbers.
 

Angry Turk !!!

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what partnership model could we offer when we're so far in development? The aircraft's sensor suit is already developed, its engine is in CDR and we started printing KAAN prototypes. Time will tell but maybe having no partner was a blessing for us. Having one chef in the kitchen gives us tremendous speed of execution compared to european projects. It worked well for us so far.
Im my opinion, Türkiye should do KAAN on its own, like it did for now. I'm absolutely against sharing Tech with anyone. Türkiye must do it alone.
 

Sanchez

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Time will tell but maybe having no partner was a blessing for us. Having one chef in the kitchen gives us tremendous speed of execution compared to european projects. It worked well for us so far.
We need production partners and customers, not development partners. We most certainly need customers who can be production partners to bear the brunt of production costs.
 
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