TR Casual Discussion TOGG - Türkiye's Automotive Joint Venture Group

what

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Tesla has some quality issues, nothing huge, but surprisingly many small things that add up.
Mass production and quality is difficult, but TOGG has tons of engineers from Bosch and all the Tier 1's in Germany. So fingers crossed, that they can do it better from the start.
 

Heartbang

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Anyone actually tried the Togg t10x ? if any can you share with us the quality build ?

I tried Tesla and the build quality personally I see it really bad, but for that price it worth it . If Togg have a better build with good price it will make a good market in the US and Canada .
Based on what I see from the YT vids TOGG is a much more mature product with a better material and bulid quality. But I won't think they'd prevail in the US market due to the Americans' own internalized racism and Islamophobia.
Remember what happened to Karsan at the NYC taxi tender?
 

Xenon54

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Based on what I see from the YT vids TOGG is a much more mature product with a better material and bulid quality. But I won't think they'd prevail in the US market due to the Americans' own internalized racism and Islamophobia.
Remember what happened to Karsan at the NYC taxi tender?
Would you buy that car from Karsan? The brand is not established, the car in question had no service points, no mass production, basically nothing except some renders and a mock-up. It would be stupid to give this tender to Karsan, we are talking about thousands of cars for the taxi fleet of NYC.
Think rationally, we will not come further by pushing the blame and playing the racism card every time, every sane person would have chosen Nissan over Karsan.
 

Ryder

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Why because Turkish households cant afford electric cars. They are a luxury.

Turkish working class still relies on petrol.

Oil wont be going anytime soon.

Infantstucture for electric is not ready.

Efuel is the way to go.
 

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The production target for this year is 28k cars. Next year, they aim to produce about 70k cars.


I hope the service infrastructure and the charging stations can keep up. We should see these production numbers multiplied once they have more affordable models available.
 

Rodeo

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The production target for this year is 28k cars. Next year, they aim to produce about 70k cars.


I hope the service infrastructure and the charging stations can keep up. We should see these production numbers multiplied once they have more affordable models available.

For reference, Tesla's production by year;

8547.jpeg



It took 7 years Tesla to reach 500k(2020) annual production from 22k in 2013. We'll see if TOGG can pace faster.
 
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B_A

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Why because Turkish households cant afford electric cars. They are a luxury.

Turkish working class still relies on petrol.

Oil wont be going anytime soon.

Infantstucture for electric is not ready.

Efuel is the way to go.
By now

Is Turkish households cant afford any cars,unless 30 years old 2hand one
 

Agha Sher

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For reference, Tesla's production by year;

8547.jpeg



It took 7 years Tesla to reach 500k(2020) annual production from 22k in 2013. We'll see if TOGG can pace faster.

A bit of an unfair comparison. Tesla was a new founded company without any industrial backers pioneering a new technology. TOGG has strong industrial backers. Hopefully, TOGG can scale very fast and become a global success to encourage Turkish industrial players to create brands in other areas as well (including the civil aviation market).
 

neosinan

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The production target for this year is 28k cars. Next year, they aim to produce about 70k cars.


I hope the service infrastructure and the charging stations can keep up. We should see these production numbers multiplied once they have more affordable models available.
It looks like They changed their long term plans very recently (within this year). 28k t10x in 2023 means they will have annual capacity above 60k. This is well above their C SUV target. They will have 5 separate production line for 5 different models, This might mean, they will produce more 175k at Gemlik factory without any extension to a factory. If they are reaching these production number without tapping into space that is reserved for other 4 production lines. My guess would be at least 250k or more likely 300k annual capacity instead of 175k. I Hope, They also speeded up their design process for other models as well. They have many engineer from Tofaş, Ford And Oyak Renault, So they sure have know-how to do it.
 

Ryder

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Tesla started with the roadster.

That roadster was built with help from Lotus.

Dont think Tesla did it all by themselves.

Togg should also offer Efuel and hybrid versions.
 

Ryder

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A bit of an unfair comparison. Tesla was a new founded company without any industrial backers pioneering a new technology. TOGG has strong industrial backers. Hopefully, TOGG can scale very fast and become a global success to encourage Turkish industrial players to create brands in other areas as well (including the civil aviation market).

Not to mention Tesla actually did get help from numerous car manufacturers. Tesla roadster also began when Lotus helped them out with the chasisis and suspension.

Look at the Tesla roadster its so obvious that it has Lotus all written over it.
 

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The fund raising event when Tesla got BMW investment was the time Elon Musk got closest to losing his mind, 'cos if it hadn't happen there would probebly be no Tesla today.
 

Rodeo

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A bit of an unfair comparison. Tesla was a new founded company without any industrial backers pioneering a new technology. TOGG has strong industrial backers. Hopefully, TOGG can scale very fast and become a global success to encourage Turkish industrial players to create brands in other areas as well (including the civil aviation market).
I hope they have the hunger and the resolution to become a major automotive company. Tesla, for sure, was a child playing in a pond in 2012. But look at them now. They are about to outproduce Toyota. Every car they ship has self-driving sensor package and custom-built FSD computers. They have the best software stack that can upgrade the entire fleet with over-the-air updates. They have eliminated hundreds of robots from final-assembly line by casting the entire underbody of car in single piece with the alloys they had themselves developed. These innovations are making them highly profitable while preserving the quality. How? Because they have a vision and an unyielding will that's hurling them forward.

The real grind will come when they(TOGG) venture into the affordable entry-level car business. I hope, the shareholders of the company push the envelope further and don't become small-minded after the company makes a couple hundreds of thousands of vehicles a year.
 

Xenon54

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For reference, Tesla's production by year;

8547.jpeg



It took 7 years Tesla to reach 500k(2020) annual production from 22k in 2013. We'll see if TOGG can pace faster.
Its not hard to add capacity of build a new factory, its much more important to deliver quality, a car company often has only one chance per customer once its over its over.
Tesla lost that chance with many people due to their attrocious build quality even after a decade, TOGG must leanr from that experience and give a good and fair after sales service otherwise all those numerbers mean nothing.
 

Sanchez

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Comparing Tesla to TOGG doesn't help anybody and doesn't prove anything. Tesla was a start up that saw two capital injections, first from Musk after he got in, then a much larger one from the IPO in 2010. Roadster was a very low production sports car that more or less originated as a tech demonstrator with only 2000+ vehicles delivered in 4 years. It was fully based on Elise and only difference was the powertrain. Model S came well after and created a class of its own.

No one can deny that TOGG came to be after multiple pushes from the government to industry giants. It's much younger and has some sort of state support behind it. How will this support will show itself in 5 years is anybody's guess at this point. Guarantees to buy cars for state service is a small one, while Erdoğan sitting next to it is a huge one. Vinfast for example, didn't have this advantage.

Tesla created the modern day full size upmarket EV car market. TOGG is a late comer with Chinese EV subcomponent advantage but market is much more competitive now.
 

moz68k

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Anyone actually tried the Togg t10x ? if any can you share with us the quality build ?

I tried Tesla and the build quality personally I see it really bad, but for that price it worth it . If Togg have a better build with good price it will make a good market in the US and Canada .
I went to the dealership in Ankara, sat in both the black and white interiors (+/- moonroof—yes—it doesn't open, like most EVs).

Interior and Exterior

The interior quality is very similar to VW products. The main exception were the few buttons and switches that were present. They felt more like a Fiat. The infotainment wheel and gear selector, for example, were disappointingly flimsy, piano black plastic controls with spongy actuation. The wheel stalks were also, frankly, a bit flimsy but better than most Stellantis products. The indicator stalk thankfully locks in place with enough force, unlike some BMWs. There weren't any creaks from what I could tell. The interior trim is wood textured hard plastic for the white int., and textured aluminum for the black int. I'd suggest people adjust their expectations on interior quality, there are a lot of hard plastics, especially in the rear (again, VW style). Surfaces that seem like metal are actually plastic, but at least they're matte. Togg never claimed this was a premium SUV, and you already get a lot of car for the price, so I'm fine with it. I've also been in the Model 3, most surfaces feel slightly better in it, but they weren't great either. I feel the build quality is probably better in the Togg, even if it doesn't feel as good. Panel gaps are already on par with most legacy car manufacturers, unlike Tesla.

The seats were comfortable, better than most in its class. The white interior was stained by blue jeans, but that's to be expected since I suspect that particular model got a lot of posterior traffic. The faux leather was soft and high quality. The rear legroom is great and the interior feels very airy, especially when equipped with the moonroof. There are large compartments under each door, the rear center seat has a flap you pull to reveal a small center armrest with two cup holders, nothing special. The rear vent stemming from the pedestal has buttons for the accompanying left and right heated seats, and unfortunately just one USB-C socket (this one broke my heart, a lot of kids will fight over this port). ISOFIX covers fold up and stay attached, so you can't lose them. There are RGB lighting accents along the upper door and center console trims. Lighting overall is quite good. The electronically operated trunk is very spacious, with a hidden lower compartment for charging cables, first aid and tire repair kits. There is no kick-to-open for the trunk, but I honestly couldn't care less. There's a 12V car plug just next to some hangers and tie-down anchors for shopping. I was told the 12V can power the included tire inflator. The cargo divider is intuitive and rolls back when pulled. The rear seats can fold in a 60:40 split. However, there is no ski passthrough. The exterior colors are all metallic except the Pamukkale (base) color. They're well executed, with a tasteful amount of metallic flake. The car looks bigger in person, tall compared to its class for ample headroom. It is also definitely even more handsome in person. The pictures don't do the side body lines justice, making the sides look flat and dull (they aren't). The Meridian sound system was very good, beyond my expectations. The volume was limited due to idiots maxing it out, but from what I could tell, the sound was very clean, with smooth bass, mids, and highs. The interior didn't echo like the Model 3, even with when optioned with the moonroof. Regarding maintenance: Bosch mechanics will be able to carry out basic maintenance, your car will be picked up by Togg for more in depth repairs. There will be a battery recycling and restoration service in the near future.

Infotainment and Software

The upper displays are bright and crisp. The lower control screen is less higher quality but probably on purpose, since it's tucked below, in the shade, and doesn't really show a lot of visually complex things, just controls. The wide central display is also touch-enabled. The steering wheel was much higher quality than expected, though the haptic touch controls on it will require some getting used to. The UI/UX needs a lot of simplification, but mostly smooth and responsive. A heavily modified version of Android automotive is all but confirmed by the overscroll effects in some of the settings menus. Even the map was smooth, I asked the staff if they knew the map sources but they didn't know it off the top of their heads. I suspect they use TomTom. The maps app has built-in planning for stops to Togg chargers along your route.

The lower control display is comfortable to operate since you can rest your arm on the center pedestal. A bar at the bottom of this display has your fixed controls like AC and seat heating. A swipe from the top of this display reveals quick settings much like iOS or Android. At the end of your arm rest, there are two hidden buttons for adjusting regen. braking from one pedal driving to almost none at all. The iDrive-like control wheel felt a bit half baked for now, since it wasn't that well integrated with the touch UI. Though, I'd rather have the option than nothing at all. I also appreciate the intuitive physical gear selector (*cough* Tesla), even though it's a little cheap feeling. The main problem regarding complexity is the sheer volume and density of controls in some screens (e.g., AC, media), an utter lack thereof in others (e.g., the settings). Speaking of AC, it's a bit loud on startup from outside, but it quickly quiets down in ~30s. The loudness could be exaggerated by the lack of engine noise, so it might just be normal. I recall the Model 3, also making a lot weird noises. It's a damn good AC unit wrt. cooling, even during 44.5C heatwave. Adjusting it with the current UI is a bit finicky, requiring a tap on the l/r (sync) temperatures before fan speed and temps can be adjusted by swiping.

There's a pretty complete driver assistance and safety suite. Radar cruise control, lane departure warning, collision avoidance, blind spot monitoring, automatic parking, and drowsiness monitoring. I asked about lane change assist on highways and they said it was in the pipeline. I also asked whether autonomous driving would be possible in the future, but they said they were (correctly) worried about implementing such things in TR. That being said, the car is equipped with a 360 camera system, and ultrasonic sensors. The 3D parking camera is smoother than even current BMWs. They even demonstrated how they were able to eliminate camera stitching artifacts in a recent update, so the engineers are definitely at work. One thing that was sorely missing, and one that I greatly emphasized was the lack of a driver distraction prevention system. In cars with a lot of distracting screens, most use eye tracking to turn certain ones off when the driver's gaze wonders. Since the car is already equipped with a driver facing IR camera (for drowsiness) I believe this will be implemented soon. There's also an interior rear facing wide angle camera with a privacy shutter. I wasn't impressed by the superfluous selfie app, but more for the future possibility of detecting children or pets, teleconferencing in a pickle, etc.

Overall, the software is surprisingly competent for a first version, and is built on a solid foundation with excellent underlying hardware. The app store is limited but there were a few new apps since earlier reviews, like Migros Sanal Market (not surprising, since Migros TR is now owned by Anadolu group). I hope it grows, but don't see this happening. Because of this, I believe CarPlay and Android Auto must be integrated, but Togg is still quiet on this subject. On the brighter side, though the staff didn't know this, I have some acquaintances with insider information on the ongoing work simplifying Togg's UI/UX. Futhermore, I heard one staff member let slip the term they use for early customers—testers—so they seem intent on listening to feedback.

Closing Remarks

The dealership was well-laid out and visually appealing, and the staff were very enthusiastic, attentive, and quite knowledgeable. I was even offered a surprisingly good cup of drip coffee which I didn't expect. I wasn't able to take a T10X for a test drive, but I did witness a truckload of Toggs (10) being offloaded by a Bursa-registered vehicle. Staff outside were walking customers through their new cars. Employees told me how there was indeed a ramp-up in deliveries in August, and that they expected this pace to accelerate. One customer later drove off to Eskisehir Yolu with their new T10X, attracting a lot of attention from many teens and adults alike (which put a smile on my face). I was told sales for the 4WD version will begin with a 29th of October special edition. Politics aside, I sincerely hope Togg succeeds, there's so much potential.
 
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Rodeo

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I went to the dealership in Ankara, sat in both the black and white interiors (+/- moonroof—yes—it doesn't open, like most EVs).

Interior and Exterior

The interior quality is very similar to VW products. The main exception were the few buttons and switches that were present. They felt more like a Fiat. The infotainment wheel and gear selector, for example, were disappointingly flimsy, piano black plastic controls with spongy actuation. The wheel stalks were also, frankly, a bit flimsy but better than most Stellantis products. The indicator stalk thankfully locks in place with enough force, unlike some BMWs. There weren't any creaks from what I could tell. The interior trim is wood textured hard plastic for the white int., and textured aluminum for the black int. I'd suggest people adjust their expectations on interior quality, there are a lot hard plastics, especially in the rear (again, VW style). Surfaces that seem like metal are actually plastic, but at least they're matte. Togg never claimed this was a premium SUV, and you already get a lot of car for the price, so I'm fine with it. I've also been in the Model 3, most surfaces feel slightly better in it, but they weren't great either. I feel the build quality is probably better in the Togg, even if it doesn't feel as good. Panel gaps are already on par with most legacy car manufacturers, unlike Tesla.

The seats were comfortable, better than most in its class. The white interior was stained by blue jeans, but that's to be expected since I suspect that particular model got a lot of posterior traffic. The faux leather was soft and high quality. The rear legroom is great and the interior feels very airy, especially when equipped with the moonroof. There are large compartments under each door, the rear center seat has a flap you pull to reveal a small center armrest with two cup holders, nothing special. The rear vent stemming from the pedestal has buttons for the accompanying left and right heated seats, and unfortunately just one USB-C socket (this one broke my heart, a lot of kids will fight over this port). ISOFIX covers fold up and stay attached, so you can't lose them. There are RGB lighting accents along the upper door and center console trims. Lighting overall is quite good. The electronically operated trunk is very spacious, with a hidden lower compartment for charging cables, first aid and tire repair kits. There is no kick-to-open for the trunk, but I honestly couldn't care less. There's a 12V car plug just next to some hangers and tie-down anchors for shopping. I was told the 12V can power the included tire inflator. The cargo divider is intuitive and rolls back when pulled. The rear seats can fold in a 60:40 split. However, there is no ski passthrough. The exterior colors are all metallic except the Pamukkale (base) color. They're well executed, with a tasteful amount of metallic flake. The car looks bigger in person, tall compared to its class for ample headroom. It is also definitely even more handsome in person. The pictures don't do the side body lines justice, making the sides look flat and dull (they aren't). The Meridian sound system was very good, beyond my expectations. The volume was limited due to idiots maxing it out, but from what I could tell, the sound was very clean, with smooth bass, mids, and highs. The interior didn't echo like the Model 3, even with when optioned with the moonroof. Regarding maintenance: Bosch mechanics will be able to carry out basic maintenance, your car will be picked up by Togg for more in depth repairs. There will be a battery recycling and restoration service in the near future.

Infotainment and Software

The upper displays are bright and crisp. The lower control screen is less higher quality but probably on purpose, since it's tucked below, in the shade, and doesn't really show a lot of visually complex things, just controls. The wide central display is also touch-enabled. The steering wheel was much higher quality than expected, though the haptic touch controls on it will require some getting used to. The UI/UX needs a lot of simplification, but mostly smooth and responsive. A heavily modified version of Android automotive is all but confirmed by the overscroll effects in some of the settings menus. Even the map was smooth, I asked the staff if they knew the map sources but they didn't know it off the top of their heads. I suspect they use TomTom. The maps app has built-in planning for stops to Togg chargers along your route.

The lower control display is comfortable to operate since you can rest your arm on the center pedestal. A bar at the bottom of this display has your fixed controls like AC and seat heating. A swipe from the top of this display reveals quick settings much like iOS or Android. At the end of your arm rest, there are two hidden buttons for adjusting regen. braking from one pedal driving to almost none at all. The iDrive-like control wheel felt a bit half baked for now, since it wasn't that well integrated with the touch UI. Though, I'd rather have the option than nothing at all. I also appreciate the intuitive physical gear selector (*cough* Tesla), even though it's a little cheap feeling. The main problem regarding complexity is the sheer volume and density of controls in some screens (e.g., AC, media), an utter lack thereof in others (e.g., the settings). Speaking of AC, it's a bit loud on startup from outside, but it quickly quiets down in ~30s. The loudness could be exaggerated by the lack of engine noise, so it might just be normal. I recall the Model 3, also making a lot weird noises. It's a damn good AC unit wrt. cooling, even during 44.5C heatwave. Adjusting it with the current UI is a bit finicky, requiring a tap on the l/r (sync) temperatures before fan speed and temps can be adjusted by swiping.

There's a pretty complete driver assistance and safety suite. Radar cruise control, lane departure warning, collision avoidance, blind spot monitoring, automatic parking, and drowsiness monitoring. I asked about lane change assist on highways and they said it was in the pipeline. I also asked whether autonomous driving would be possible in the future, but they said they were (correctly) worried about implementing such things in TR. That being said, the car is equipped with a 360 camera system, and sonar sensors. The 3D parking camera is smoother than even current BMWs. They even demonstrated how in a recent update the camera stitching artifacts were removed in a recent update, so the engineers are definitely at work. One thing that was sorely missing, and one that I greatly emphasized was the lack of a driver distraction prevention system. In cars with a lot of distracting screens, most use eye tracking to turn certain ones off when the driver's gaze wonders. Since the car is already equipped with a driver facing IR camera (for drowsiness) I believe this will be implemented soon. There's also an interior rear facing wide angle camera with a privacy shutter. I wasn't impressed by the superfluous selfie app, but more for the future possibility of detecting children or pets, teleconferencing in a pickle, etc.

Overall, the software is surprisingly competent for a first version, and is built on a solid foundation with excellent underlying hardware. The app store is limited but were a few new apps since earlier reviews, like Migros Sanal Market (not surprising, since Migros TR is now by Anadolu group). I hope it grows, but don't see this happening. Because of this, I believe CarPlay and Android Auto must be integrated, but Togg is still quiet on this subject. On the brighter side, though the staff didn't know this, I have some acquaintances with insider information on the ongoing work simplifying Togg's UI/UX. Futhermore, I heard one staff member let slip the term they use for early customers—testers—so they seem intent on listening to feedback.

Closing Remarks

The dealership was well-laid out and visually appealing, and the staff were very enthusiastic, attentive, and quite knowledgeable. I was even offered a surprisingly good cup of drip coffee which I didn't expect. I wasn't able to take a T10X for a test drive, but I did witness a truckload of Toggs (10) being offloaded by a Bursa-registered vehicle. Staff outside were walking customers through their new cars. Employees told me how there was indeed a ramp-up in deliveries in August, and that they expected this pace to accelerate. One customer later drove off into Eskisehir Yolu with their new T10X, attracting a lot of attention from many teens and adults alike (which put a smile on my face). I was told sales for the 4WD version will begin with a 29th of October special edition. Politics aside, I sincerely hope Togg succeeds, there's so much potential.
Wow. Thank you very much for this extensive writing. You should open a youtube channel and do car reviews (y)

I am very much impressed with the sensor suite of the car and what that entails in software growth. Did you happen to ask about the software update scheme? Does it or will it have over the air update capability?
 
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moz68k

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Wow. Thank you very much for this extensive writing. You should open a youtube channel and do car reviews (y)

I am very much impressed with the sensor suite of the car and what that entails in software growth. Did you happen to ask about the software update scheme? Does it or will it have over the air update capability?
Ahahah, I'm not very photogenic, but I do watch a lot of car reviews for fun.

OTA updates are already enabled, and the cars are connected to Turkcell's cellular network. I don't have much faith in the Togg only app store, but it's probably where apps that have deeper integration with the car will go. I think it'd be wise not to get fooled by the hubris of companies like Lucid and Tesla which don't provide CarPlay or Android Auto. Let's be real, Facebook isn't going to make a WhatsApp client for Togg. That is one of my biggest worries on the software side.

As for driving assistance, right now it appears they are (rightly) focused on fundamental ADAS features as opposed to full self driving capability. A lot of the safety systems I mentioned are now requirements for a five star EuroNCAP rating, so they are of paramount importance. Nevertheless, the sensors and hardware for more advanced ADAS are certainly there.

Tesla is now adamant on computer vision, but the T10X has a mix of ultrasonic (left, right, front, rear), radar (front), and 360 color camera sensors. I counted five wide angle cameras: two in the front (for stereoscopy), two on each mirror, and one in the rear. Tesla Vision has eight, with a mix of telephoto (to make up for lack of radar) and wide angle. I'm not convinced that in a world of humans driving, FSD will ever be possible. Especially in TR, where traffic rules are merely a suggestion. However, I think if/when Togg gets serious about FSD, it'd be great if they collaborated (or acquired) Turkish start-up ADASTEC—they made the software of the fully autonomous Karsan bus now operating in Norway.
 
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