TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Zafer]

There's currently no Tranche 5. Current production aircraft for Germany is the Quadriga, the T4 model. If Turkey signs, it might be the first T5 customer.

Numbers are interesting. I think "ASAP" here could mean close to 5 years.

Quoting my post from august.

In 5 years we will be getting our Kaan powered by our TF35K engine, we better not touch somebody else's weapons. The world is changing but our TSK want to stick to old school.

 

[boredaf]

In 5 years we will be getting our Kaan powered by our TF35K engine, we better not touch somebody else's weapons. The world is changing but our TSK want to stick to old school.

How many times...

IF we are lucky beyond belief and there are no setbacks or complications and IF TEI/TAI aren't exaggerating/overselling their product, we MIGHT get TF35K ready for test flights in Kaan in 2028. At that point, I have to point this out, it would be part of the aerospace history as it would probably be the fastest jet engine ever to get from design to test flight phase.

Even then, we would probably still be a year or two away from having Kaan ready to fly with two working and fully tested TF35K. THEN, we would have to produce both Kaan and TF35K in numbers high enough, which will also take few years, again, if there are no complications.

Some bloody realism mate, please. Despite what armchair generals might think, people in charge of our actual air force and military in general probably have a better understanding of what we need and when we can get it.

 

[Oublious]

In 5 years we will be getting our Kaan powered by our TF35K engine, we better not touch somebody else's weapons. The world is changing but our TSK want to stick to old school.

If everything goes well first test will start in 2030 begin, how long will the test last?

 

[what]

Good news. A decent stop gap solution if the price is right

 

[Azeri441]

is the F-16V deal still going through if the Eurofighter deal goes through as well?

 

[Zafer]

We are talking about something that is totally up to Turkish engineers performance and the leadership that leads them. Hard work and more resource allocation can speed things up by a good margin. While this is a fact getting in costly long term engagements is only political and not rational. It is only a matter of a 1 year timeframe before unmanned jets prove their worth. With the first Turkish made turbofan engine being available for integration it is only a year before we start retiring older planes and giving weight to the robotic planes. What is this rush to engage long term with people who have conflicts of interest with us. It is only asking for trouble and nothing else. We have already the $1.45bn investment that we are yet to recover and they still want to engage more with the other hand of the same body.

 

[Sanchez]

if the price is right

Pretty sure EF-2000 is the most expensive jet we can buy, but you make do.

 

[Zoth]

Will they not buy the 40 F16V from USA? Will they make a switch to 40 Eurofighter T4?

Eurofighter acquisition is totally seperate of F16V package deal, one doesn't cancel the other one. In fact, the f16 package is more important because it contains jet engines which Turkey needs both for Kaan and Hurjet and hudreds of missiles.

 

[Sanchez]

the f16 package is more important because it contains jet engines which Turkey needs both for Kaan and Hurjet

It does not. DSCA readout only includes F110s for the F-16s, nothing else.

"forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares)"

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

You can remove articles from the packages announced to the congress, but you can't add articles.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Eurofighter acquisition is totally seperate of F16V package deal, one doesn't cancel the other one. In fact, the f16 package is more important because it contains jet engines which Turkey needs both for Kaan and Hurjet and hudreds of missiles.

The 23billion dollar package does not include the engines for KAAN. Nor does it include the F404 engines for Hurjet.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

They include 48 F110GE129D engines (the last 30 planes we bought in 2010 had F110GE129B engines)
The KAAN jet uses F110GE129E engine which is optimised for twin engine usage and are the same engines on the F15EX jets.

Eurofighter deal will be for the latest version of this plane according to the statement given by Turkish MOD. The latest version is most probably the Tranche 5 which uses the British Leonardo UK designed ECRS MK2 hybrid Aesa radar (with both GaAs and GaN T/R modules)

 

[boredaf]

Hard work and more resource allocation can speed things up by a good margin.

No, it can't. Saying you can speed things up with hard work is like saying all you need is a firm handshake to get a job. And, it is very insulting to suggest that people working on TF35K aren't working hard enough. Shame on you.

And throwing money at it can only help up to point because the bottleneck in this process isn't just the money. Our expertise on engines, especially an engine like TF35K, is limited which also limits the personnel that can reliably and expertly work on it. Throw all our military budget on it, if we don't have enough qualified people that can work on the engine, it wouldn't change a thing.

With the first Turkish made turbofan engine being available for integration it is only a year before we start retiring older planes and giving weight to the robotic planes.

Let me correct you there. We are a year or two away from TF6K start its flight tests which will take maybe a year or two as well; then, if there are not setbacks it'll enter LRIP. Also, pretty much this whole process will have to start again with TF10K, which is the engine that could make KE on par with fighter jets, which is not a guaranteed at all.

While this is a fact getting in costly long term engagements is only political and not rational.

Who are you to say that? Do you know why the air force wants F-16s and EFs? What their plans and expectations are? Do you have the sensitive information they would have on the projects going on right now? What makes your version of events, an outsiders point of view, makes rational while decisions made by people with actual knowledge are irrational?

I think this has to be said, blind faith and support is not patriotism, its nationalism and that is what caused the fall of great many empires. A country turning into rabid yes men only creates complacency and down the road, ruin. Real patriotism is knowing the shortfalls of your country and wanting to fix them, not turning a blind eye to them.

Same thing applies to all of our projects as well. Yes, we have many amazing projects and many success stories, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything from any other country and can take care of ourselves completely. I hope it'll be the case one day, but it isn't right now. We need engines for multiple projects, we need ejection seat for all our planes, we need upgrade packages and munitions and yes, we clearly also need jets.

On top of that, we have to be able to acknowledge that not everything we make or are going to make will be the top of its class every time, which is a behaviour I've seen time and again as well. We don't need everything to be the best in the world, we need them to fulfil the criteria set by our military, pass their tests and work reliably.

As I said before, we need to plant our feet firmly on the ground and get our heads out of the clouds. We have to know what our capabilities and more importantly, our limitations are and instead of stretching ourselves too thin or falling for our own story of our greatness, make logical decisions even if they might seem less than ideal.

 

[uçuyorum]

The new legislation being talked about for additional funding of defence spendings also kind of confirms this, it means a sudden new purchase is around

 

[Zafer]

The new legislation being talked about for additional funding of defence spendings also kind of confirms this, it means a sudden new purchase is around

It says defence industry and not defence procurement, reporting may be inaccurate though.

 

[Zafer]

No, it can't. Saying you can speed things up with hard work is like saying all you need is a firm handshake to get a job. And, it is very insulting to suggest that people working on TF35K aren't working hard enough. Shame on you.

And throwing money at it can only help up to point because the bottleneck in this process isn't just the money. Our expertise on engines, especially an engine like TF35K, is limited which also limits the personnel that can reliably and expertly work on it. Throw all our military budget on it, if we don't have enough qualified people that can work on the engine, it wouldn't change a thing.


Let me correct you there. We are a year or two away from TF6K start its flight tests which will take maybe a year or two as well; then, if there are not setbacks it'll enter LRIP. Also, pretty much this whole process will have to start again with TF10K, which is the engine that could make KE on par with fighter jets, which is not a guaranteed at all.


Who are you to say that? Do you know why the air force wants F-16s and EFs? What their plans and expectations are? Do you have the sensitive information they would have on the projects going on right now? What makes your version of events, an outsiders point of view, makes rational while decisions made by people with actual knowledge are irrational?

I think this has to be said, blind faith and support is not patriotism, its nationalism and that is what caused the fall of great many empires. A country turning into rapid yes men only creates complacency and down the road, ruin. Real patriotism is knowing the shortfalls of your country and wanting to fix them, not turning a blind eye to them.

Same thing applies to all of our projects as well. Yes, we have many amazing projects and many success stories, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything from any other country and can take care of ourselves completely. I hope it'll be the case one day, but it isn't right now. We need engines for multiple projects, we need ejection seat for all our planes, we need upgrade packages and munitions and yes, we clearly also need jets.

On top of that, we have to be able to acknowledge that not everything we make or are going to make will be the top of its class every time, which is a behaviour I've seen time and again as well. We don't need everything to be the best in the world, we need them to fulfil the criteria set by our military, pass their tests and work reliably.

As I said before, we need to plant our feet firmly on the ground and get our heads out of the clouds. We have to know what our capabilities and more importantly, our limitations are and instead of stretching ourselves too thin or falling for our own story of our greatness, make logical decisions even if they might seem less than ideal.

All your arguments suggest we shovel money into mouths of the enemy. Those weapon makers are to stand in front of us as enemies. And those weapons can only be used against their enemies and not ours.

Hard work for an organization means putting more man hours and resources on projects and not necessarily making engineers work long hours. It means buying computers that do a better job, employing supporting scientific disciplines to speed up analysis and tests. Ordering components to multiple makers to make sure a faster procurement is provided. It is planning in a manner where no time is lost waiting for components from a single source to arrive. It is starting the ejecting seat development earlier rather than later. Training more people to find out gems among them. It means doing what you would be expected to do over the years in a shorter time.

Save you blabber to who will buy it, shame on you underestimating Türkiye, we keep moving faster than you wish.

 

[boredaf]

And those weapons can only be used against their enemies and not ours.

That doesn't make sense since we have been using their weapons against our enemies for decades, including this very year. Or do you think F-16s we've been using are from some other magical country other than the US?

Hard work for an organization means putting more man hours

not necessarily making engineers work long hours

These two literally contradict each other.

It means buying computers that do a better job, employing supporting scientific disciplines to speed up analysis and tests. Ordering components to multiple makers to make sure a faster procurement is provided. It is planning in a manner where no time is lost waiting for components from a single source to arrive. It is starting the ejecting seat development earlier rather than later.

It means doing what you would be expected to do over the years in a shorter time.

Nothing you say here has any basis on reality, par course for you. Shoulda woulda coulda. We are talking about Eurofighter procurement while you're talking in general platitudes and vague concept that might do this or that. Where are those computers coming from? What scientific "disciplines" that we are not employing right now that is going to speed up analysis and tests? Who are those companies that we could order components but we don't? And which components are those? Starting the ejection seat earlier? Doing what would take years in a shorter time? Now you've gone full on into time machine territory, how on earth is that a realistic argument?

Training more people to find out gems among them.

Where are those people are going to come from and who is going to train them? Universities that already have a problem with providing quality education in many subjects? To students who have been failed and fallen behind against other countries thanks to 2 decades of politicised education system? Another empty platitude that doesn't have a real meaning, and not just because what I have already said, but mostly because this is not something that could be done in a year or two, a change like that takes decades to actually take effect. You are not going to change a student who barely passed high school into a competent technician or engineer by just throwing money at them. Change like that start from the bottom and takes years to implement, especially since you also have to get people interested in what you need to being with.

All your arguments suggest we shovel money into mouths of the enemy. Those weapon makers are to stand in front of us as enemies.

Geopolitics is NOT black and white, it has never been for us and it will never be. This type of short sighted and simplistic view of geopolitics is not only dangerous but if it was followed through you would turn us into another North Korea, cut off from most of the world, from our biggest economic partners and make us beholden to China at the end of the road.

Save you blabber to who will buy it, shame on you underestimating Türkiye, we keep moving faster than you wish.

Don't try to put words into my mouth. I'm not underestimating Türkiye, I am just not overlooking our shortcomings and faults like you do. People like you who turn a blind eye to the things that are wrong and things people in charge fucked up in the last 20 years are the reason why our economy tumbled down so hard, just for one example. Unlike you, I want my country to be actually strong and self-reliant, take steps further on firm ground, rather than pipe dreams that are based on vague platitudes, chest beating and promises.

 

[Zoth]

It does not. DSCA readout only includes F110s for the F-16s, nothing else.

"forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares)"

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

You can remove articles from the packages announced to the congress, but you can't add articles.

The 23billion dollar package does not include the engines for KAAN. Nor does it include the F404 engines for Hurjet.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

They include 48 F110GE129D engines (the last 30 planes we bought in 2010 had F110GE129B engines)
The KAAN jet uses F110GE129E engine which is optimised for twin engine usage and are the same engines on the F15EX jets.

Eurofighter deal will be for the latest version of this plane according to the statement given by Turkish MOD. The latest version is most probably the Tranche 5 which uses the British Leonardo UK designed ECRS MK2 hybrid Aesa radar (with both GaAs and GaN T/R modules)

I guess that was my mistake, i guess i remember wrong that the deal also includes the engines, thanks for the correction.

This correction brings another question though, it seems that USA is not keen to sell us the engines for Hurjet and Kaan unless CAATSA is lifted, what our other options for engines in case USA ends up not selling us the engines?

 

[Saithan]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

 

[boredaf]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

Same type of stuff was also mentioned when F-16 deal was approved and then categorically denied by our officials its almost like some people immediately go into shit stirring mod or something.

 

[Sanchez]

Terms and conditions rarely apply to real world use. We were also supposed to not use our Leo2s in Cyprus and "Southeast" but we did. F-16 sale could only happen if Turkey accepted the NDAA but it was reversed and removed from the bill etc. What are they gonna do, ask for the platforms back? Once you have them in house, stuff they can do is minimal as we've seen in the past decade.
--
Tolga Özbek claims Turkey is interested in second hand EF-2000s from gulf countries to speed up the procurement, probably Saudi or Qatar. But I doubt it, Yaşar Güler did state that they're not interested in second hand jets in the past. Unlike the previously reported UK T1s though, Saudi and Qatar jets are pretty new. Saudis have 48 T2 and 24 T3s and Qatar is still getting the delivery of its 24 T3s, I think only half or so were delivered until now. Maybe they want to get Qatar's yet to be delivered T3s as a stop gap(for the stopgap..)

There's also this to consider. Certifying Turkish munitions and avionics for EF-2000 will take time but it's very good that it's being worked on before a deal is possibly reached.

"...The most important condition for the purchase is the integration of these systems into Eurofighter aircraft. In the last few weeks, teams from Turkish defense companies such as ASELSAN, Roketsan and HAVELSAN have been meeting with Eurofighter teams. One of Turkey's important conditions for integration is that it wants local and national systems to be included in the aircraft."

Eurofighter’da ilk adım ikinci el – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

 

[Saithan]

Well if the configuration is the same I'd welcome 2nd hand EF, but that is only after the purchase deal has been signed with monetary fines to be dished out if they fail to uphold their agreements.