TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

I_Love_F16

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Are you sure that we are going to have the f35s, if we do not receive s400. Of course, it wont, given how misaligned US-TR relationship in many cases. Instead of fooling ourselves, we need to accept the truth.
If you blame the government with its foreign policy with US, then i may understand complaint.
Do not forget that Turkish military industry exists today due to sanctions have been applied for decades.
Yes, we could have had those F-35's. Greece, Iran and Russia wouldn't have dared to threaten Turkiye like they're doing right now if we had those planes. With those F-35's in our inventory, we could have gained more experience with 5th Gen tech, expanding even more TUSAS capabilities and resources, while retaining Air superiority in the region. Instead, Erdogan is begging the US to sell us F-16's, while doing the same for used Eurofighters.

We could have kissed the US butt for a few years until we got the TF-X ready, and showing them the middle finger. Instead, we got useless S-400's.

At the end of the day, it's all about being smart. We played foolishly, and now we have to pay the price.
 

Cypro

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Is he going to litigate this matter in the US courts?
If you mean F-35 deal, that was an intergovernmental agreement which the US courts can't have any authority over it. Plus if I am not wrong I remember the partnership deal itself has some stuff preventing such legal actions like going courts. If the US didn't have that S400 excuse, it cannot booted out Turkiye, but again it has to be solved between governments. I don't know if The Hague can accept that kind of case. But eventually the US will compensate Turkiye, it has to, otherwise it is a type of piracy which is not only poisoning the US-Turkiye relations but the US would look bad and unreliable. That is why these talks are continuing, and process is long, both sides still have hope to recover at some point, like who knows, a new President might be elected in Turkiye which would severe ties with Russia and remove S400. Or the US decides F35 is no longer a strategic asset and suddenly give those seized fighters. Even Ukraine war changed a lot of things.
 

Rooxbar

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Everybody wants to screw everybody else, but the uncouth childish diplomacy language and attitude of AKP, along with its attempts to build soft power in middle-east by showing teeth to the west, has lead to a tarnished image of our country, which helps form public opinion abroad and make it easier for western powers to put pressure. Like this whole Sweden-Finland thing could have been handled much more delicately, not helping draw this belligerent image of Turkey; but no, they have to blow into the trumpet and make everything a rallying cry for their uneducated voter base.
 
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Nilgiri

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Actually Biden did whatever he can

No he didn't.

If he kept things in certain muffled noises tier, and didnt bring them up in more potent tiers....he didn't do "whatever he could".

This matter barely got mentioned anywhere in US media (I follow it across the board quite regularly), not even a faintest of scratches....because it simply never even came up in a press briefing or statement of note by Biden (that he could easily have done if he cares so much about its opposition in US legislature, lobby groups et al.)


If you mean F-35 deal, that was an intergovernmental agreement which the US courts can't have any authority over it. Plus if I am not wrong I remember the partnership deal itself has some stuff preventing such legal actions like going courts. If the US didn't have that S400 excuse, it cannot booted out Turkiye, but again it has to be solved between governments. I don't know if The Hague can accept that kind of case. But eventually the US will compensate Turkiye, it has to, otherwise it is a type of piracy which is not only poisoning the US-Turkiye relations but the US would look bad and unreliable. That is why these talks are continuing, and process is long, both sides still have hope to recover at some point, like who knows, a new President might be elected in Turkiye which would severe ties with Russia and remove S400. Or the US decides F35 is no longer a strategic asset and suddenly give those seized fighters. Even Ukraine war changed a lot of things.

The S-400 decision IMO was a colossal mistake by Turkiye.

It gave the easiest of outs for US deep state to shut down conversation on it on their terms within their outer edifice (the more temporal govt).

Turkiye must better understand how to make things in that process as hard as possible....not the reverse.
 

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Actually Biden did whatever he can, which was really surprising. But just like how some don't understand how a guy can burn a quran in the street, they can't understand separation of powers, democracy etc. Most of AKP voters and even members think whole world is working like their one guy system.. Sure Biden can decide / give them whenever he wants and not giving because he does not want, ironically probably the US will give F16s but I think RTE will sabotage the deal in favor of elections and populism.
We have seen that America is weak.
 

Rooxbar

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We have seen that America is weak.
You know what Chinese billionaires do with their money? They invest in American startups, buy treasury bonds and shares in U.S. stock markets and gobble up properties in American cities. America has been in decline since the 80s, but they're so securely ahead that they can slack for another hundred years before anyone can shake up their geopolitically ridiculously safe position.
 

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Nothing will happen IMO

The Americans are waiting for the results of the next Turkish elections before making any decisions regarding Turkey and this is clearly shown by the fact that the US is trying to stall for time!

If the Opposition won, the US will force Turkey to give up the S400s, reduce thir national arms race and possibly reduce or stop the MMU project altogether so that the US can sell dozens of F35s to Turkey as their main fighter jet which aids in maintaining the status quo with Greece as per US interests

If Erdogan remianed, the US will start to swirl around finding a trillion excuses on why they wont give the billions spent on the F35 and rather they should spend it on another product such as the F16s which is rather unfair and will only be supplied by the end of 2027 or more since the F16 prosuction lines in US are full and they will probably not want Turkey to produce them on its own soil. I also expect sanctions and embargoes to pick up the pace as the US will try to destroy the Turkish armed industry one way or another
 

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I will say it again and again even if it takes a million times
Thank God Turkey got the S400

Whether the S400 in itself is a good system or not can be argued about, however, thx to this incident, Turkey was expelled from the F35 program and was forced to speed up indiginous means to the point where Turkey's own manned and unmanned fighter jets are no longer a dream
3 to 5 years from now, and ppl will cry from tears that Turkey was expelled from the F35 as it opened tons of possibilities for Turkey

 

babayetu

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TURAF planned to buy 134 f35. F35A was never going to be TURAF's main fighter, it was supposed to take the place of F4s. 116+18 F35 was going to bought in a long time process, for example initially only paid and ordered 4. 130 F35 is approximately 25b$, it would cost Turkey probably 55b$ from 2020s to 2060s to keep 130 F-35s on air and flying.TAI and its contractors were gonna produce parts that worth at least 15b$ also TAI was going to be one of the two major maintainance place in EU and ME beside Italy. 35b$ deficit in 40 years is basicly 1b$ on air forces budget which is not substantial enough to slow down TF-X project.
TF-X has nothing to do with F35, the project was conceptualized in early 2010's, air force made their plans according to getting both F35+TF-X. TF-X was to replace f16s.

There is nothing good about getting expelled from JSF. It made us money and was going to make air force number 1 by far in the region.
in fact air force did not have to buy f-35 if they preffered TF-X, for example Canada another tier-3 partner did not buy f35s arguing they are too expensive for so long up until this year, they did not order for 12 years from 2010 to 2022. We could just say buying f-35 is not good cause US put limitations and just let TAI earn that $ and go on with the TF-X project.

A detailed analysis without ideological bigotry, positives and negatives of JSF for Turkey can be read here
 
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Zafer

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TURAF planned to buy 134 f35. F35A was never going to be TURAF's main fighter, it was supposed to take the place of F4s. 116+18 F35 was going to bought in a long time process, for example initially only paid and ordered 4. 130 F35 is approximately 25b$, it would cost Turkey probably 55b$ from 2020s to 2060s to keep 130 F-35s on air and flying.TAI and its contractors were gonna produce parts that worth at least 15b$ also TAI was going to be one of the two major maintainance place in EU and ME beside Italy. 35b$ deficit in 40 years is basicly 1b$ on air forces budget which is not substantial enough to slow down TF-X project.
TF-X has nothing to do with F35, the project was conceptualized in early 2010's, air force made their plans according to getting both F35+TF-X. TF-X was to replace f16s.

There is nothing good about getting expelled from JSF. It made us money and was going to make air force number 1 by far in the region.
in fact air force did not have to buy f-35 if they preffered TF-X, for example Canada another tier-3 partner did not buy f35s arguing they are too expensive for so long up until this year, they did not order for 12 years from 2010 to 2022. We could just say buying f-35 is not good cause US put limitations and just let TAI earn that $ and go on with the TF-X project.
The US didn't get so big because they are a bunch of fools. They would never let you off without paying for it dearly. They want to cripple Türkiye not help flourish.
 
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Turan

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It seems that we are having great difficulties in acquiring new fighter Jets from abroad. In this case, the best thing to do would be to improve the capabilities at hand (For example Anka 3, Gökdoğan, Koral 2, Akıncı, Havasoj, Gökhan, Kızılelma, Siper, Hisar...) and spread the risks by spreading some platform-based shortcomings to the entire army with network-based warfare. I think in this thread that we should not only consider purchasing aircraft from abroad, but also this aspect of the issue in detail.
 

YeşilVatan

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It seems that we are having great difficulties in acquiring new fighter Jets from abroad. In this case, the best thing to do would be to improve the capabilities at hand (For example Anka 3, Gökdoğan, Koral 2, Akıncı, Havasoj, Gökhan, Kızılelma, Siper, Hisar...) and spread the risks by spreading some platform-based shortcomings to the entire army with network-based warfare. I think in this thread that we should not only consider purchasing aircraft from abroad, but also this aspect of the issue in detail.
This is a very important point, and you are completely right. We are not some tribal state that gets lost in "our planes beat yours" type of argument. If Turkish Armed Forces have the network centric warfare capability to conduct operations without using even one jet, then we simply don't need jets. (This is just an example btw, of course we need jets)

Just imagine this very realistic scenario: A Turkish drone is patrolling international airspace claimed by Greeks, they shoot down the drone with a Rafale, then Turkish F-16s are sent to intercept and some get shot down in the ensuing dogfight. But then TAF gets an AWACS in the air, shoots down the entire squadron with BVRs fired from Akıncıs, F-16s, SİPER batteries while Turkish rocket artillery targets Greek air defence in the islands. The whole thing becomes an international crisis within 2 hours. I haven't even considered the finer points like EW, special forces or involvement from both navies.

I hope I demonstrated the uselessness of F-16 vs. Rafale kind of arguments. People who argue about this platform vs. that platorm are grugbrains.
 

Ryder

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TURAF planned to buy 134 f35. F35A was never going to be TURAF's main fighter, it was supposed to take the place of F4s. 116+18 F35 was going to bought in a long time process, for example initially only paid and ordered 4. 130 F35 is approximately 25b$, it would cost Turkey probably 55b$ from 2020s to 2060s to keep 130 F-35s on air and flying.TAI and its contractors were gonna produce parts that worth at least 15b$ also TAI was going to be one of the two major maintainance place in EU and ME beside Italy. 35b$ deficit in 40 years is basicly 1b$ on air forces budget which is not substantial enough to slow down TF-X project.
TF-X has nothing to do with F35, the project was conceptualized in early 2010's, air force made their plans according to getting both F35+TF-X. TF-X was to replace f16s.

There is nothing good about getting expelled from JSF. It made us money and was going to make air force number 1 by far in the region.
in fact air force did not have to buy f-35 if they preffered TF-X, for example Canada another tier-3 partner did not buy f35s arguing they are too expensive for so long up until this year, they did not order for 12 years from 2010 to 2022. We could just say buying f-35 is not good cause US put limitations and just let TAI earn that $ and go on with the TF-X project.

A detailed analysis without ideological bigotry, positives and negatives of JSF for Turkey can be read here

Turkish Navy also had plans to buy the F35B
 

Lool

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Nothing will happen IMO

The Americans are waiting for the results of the next Turkish elections before making any decisions regarding Turkey and this is clearly shown by the fact that the US is trying to stall for time!

If the Opposition won, the US will force Turkey to give up the S400s, reduce thir national arms race and possibly reduce or stop the MMU project altogether so that the US can sell dozens of F35s to Turkey as their main fighter jet which aids in maintaining the status quo with Greece as per US interests

If Erdogan remianed, the US will start to swirl around finding a trillion excuses on why they wont give the billions spent on the F35 and rather they should spend it on another product such as the F16s which is rather unfair and will only be supplied by the end of 2027 or more since the F16 prosuction lines in US are full and they will probably not want Turkey to produce them on its own soil. I also expect sanctions and embargoes to pick up the pace as the US will try to destroy the Turkish armed industry one way or another
As expected
The opposition plans to return to the F35 project which means that there is a high probability for the MMU project to be sidelined or outright scrapped

 

Turan

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As expected
The opposition plans to return to the F35 project which means that there is a high probability for the MMU project to be sidelined or outright scrapped

It would be nice if they told how they will get back to the f 35 project. I don't think it will be possible just by giving back the s 400. They will definitely want more concessions for this.
 

No Name

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TURAF planned to buy 134 f35. F35A was never going to be TURAF's main fighter, it was supposed to take the place of F4s. 116+18 F35 was going to bought in a long time process, for example initially only paid and ordered 4. 130 F35 is approximately 25b$, it would cost Turkey probably 55b$ from 2020s to 2060s to keep 130 F-35s on air and flying.TAI and its contractors were gonna produce parts that worth at least 15b$ also TAI was going to be one of the two major maintainance place in EU and ME beside Italy. 35b$ deficit in 40 years is basicly 1b$ on air forces budget which is not substantial enough to slow down TF-X project.
TF-X has nothing to do with F35, the project was conceptualized in early 2010's, air force made their plans according to getting both F35+TF-X. TF-X was to replace f16s.

There is nothing good about getting expelled from JSF. It made us money and was going to make air force number 1 by far in the region.
in fact air force did not have to buy f-35 if they preffered TF-X, for example Canada another tier-3 partner did not buy f35s arguing they are too expensive for so long up until this year, they did not order for 12 years from 2010 to 2022. We could just say buying f-35 is not good cause US put limitations and just let TAI earn that $ and go on with the TF-X project.

A detailed analysis without ideological bigotry, positives and negatives of JSF for Turkey can be read here
I think realistically Turkey was always going to be kicked out of the program as the US's foreign policy towards the middle east has been an existential threat to Turkey. plus the last time Turkey got a new class of fighter jet from the US, the jet had been in production for 13 years already in other words the US never gives Turkey new toys.
It seems that we are having great difficulties in acquiring new fighter Jets from abroad. In this case, the best thing to do would be to improve the capabilities at hand (For example Anka 3, Gökdoğan, Koral 2, Akıncı, Havasoj, Gökhan, Kızılelma, Siper, Hisar...) and spread the risks by spreading some platform-based shortcomings to the entire army with network-based warfare. I think in this thread that we should not only consider purchasing aircraft from abroad, but also this aspect of the issue in detail.
the Anka-3 and Goksungur projects could replace Turkey's aging F-4s as turkey's main bomber aircraft. The drones won't be as good at the all-weather, long-range supersonic jet interceptor and fighter-bomber bit, but considering how old the planes are I highly doubt that they can do the interceptor and fighter role still, so there is no big loss there.

The HurJet light attack aircraft could prolong the life span of Turkey's F-16s and they could make up for any shortcomings they might have by delegating one of the seats to a dedicated drone operator. The Kizilelma should be helpful in this case as it would serve as a cheap 4 gen fighter wingman/scout for the F-16 and Hurjet which will engage enemy aircraft with Gökdoğan or Gökhan missiles. Of cause theses, platforms will be joined with the TF-X fighter by 2029/30 which will allow Turkey to make up for the quality disparity between the Hellenic air force and the Turkish air force.

Missile/drone systems such as Bora, Tayfun, and Kargı would not only help to destroy enemy airfields, and radar sites but also anti-air platforms such as the S-300. while the previously mentioned systems will give the long-range offensive capability to the other branches of the Turkish military, the Siper and Hisar system will allow them to be able to assist the Turkish air force with area denial.

All things considered, the Turkish military will probably still be one of the most powerful militaries in the Middle East and Europe. the only real problem is the engines for the Hurjet getting embargoed.
 

Lool

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TURAF planned to buy 134 f35. F35A was never going to be TURAF's main fighter, it was supposed to take the place of F4s. 116+18 F35 was going to bought in a long time process, for example initially only paid and ordered 4. 130 F35 is approximately 25b$, it would cost Turkey probably 55b$ from 2020s to 2060s to keep 130 F-35s on air and flying.TAI and its contractors were gonna produce parts that worth at least 15b$ also TAI was going to be one of the two major maintainance place in EU and ME beside Italy. 35b$ deficit in 40 years is basicly 1b$ on air forces budget which is not substantial enough to slow down TF-X project.
TF-X has nothing to do with F35, the project was conceptualized in early 2010's, air force made their plans according to getting both F35+TF-X. TF-X was to replace f16s.

There is nothing good about getting expelled from JSF. It made us money and was going to make air force number 1 by far in the region.
in fact air force did not have to buy f-35 if they preffered TF-X, for example Canada another tier-3 partner did not buy f35s arguing they are too expensive for so long up until this year, they did not order for 12 years from 2010 to 2022. We could just say buying f-35 is not good cause US put limitations and just let TAI earn that $ and go on with the TF-X project.

A detailed analysis without ideological bigotry, positives and negatives of JSF for Turkey can be read here
Pls explain to me how possessing around 135 F35s doesnt equate to it being the Turks' main fighter? As far as my info goes, Turkey planned to eventually replace all of its F16s with F35s which means that it was going to become the main fighter jet of Turkey

Moreover, what you said about the monetary gains is 100% spot on but you have failed to realise 4 main things:

1- While the F35 project will give Turkey billions in revenues, it would have jeopardised Turkish foreign policy as its military would have literally been crippled and at the mercy of US decision makers within the Pentagon since the software of the plane can be easily shut down from Washington. Just imagine Turkey using it to hit PKK targets only for the plane to immediately shut down before even flying

2- Turkey, as you said, initiated the TFX program since 2010 but initial plans was to have the prototype roll out in 2028 or 2029 which is 5 more years from now. Moreover, with the recent events, who knows what the lovely West would have embargoed by 2028 or 2029. Furthermore, what ACTUALLY helped in speeding up the TFX program was the involvement of BAE and they only got involved to obtain data that they can use while building their 6th generation fighter at free cost since most of the money was paid by Turkey. Imagine if BAE, by 2029, refuses to help Turkey as they didnt need further help due to the fact that they may have completed the initial prototype? (Just for thought though as nothing is certain)

3- As you said before, F35 will rack in billions for Turkey but that is nothing more than a short-term gain! However, by speeding up both the TFX program and its indiginisation process, Turkey not only acquired its own domestic jet to meet its foreign policy and army needs at cheaper prices but also initiated an intricate network of infrastructure and technological expertise that wont only serve TAI but the whole Turkish economy in all of its branches in terms of employment, productivity, and export since the TFX will be exported in the dozens to numerous countries. Just imagine how much money would Turkey make from regular maintenance and ammunition repair

4- Finally, the F35 is obviously a beautiful jet but as I said long ago, it is still a failed project. The initial project aim was to have a replacement for the jack of all trades, the F16 at a reasonable price and cheap operational cost. The F35 didnt meet all of the criteria sadly; while it is a beast in electronic warfare and air-to-ground operations, its hourly operation cost is astronomical, its routinely RAM coating is bloody hell expensive, its repair is way too expensive, and its air-to-air combat ability isnt as good as the F22, F16, F18, or F15. Operating and maintaining a whooping 135 F35s will just break the Turkish army balance sheets whixh is just dumb

The Ukraine-Russia war proved how you need to be cheap, effective, and deadly at the same time and Turkey with F35s doesnt have the budget to finance these money pitholes. Maybe in the future they may get cheaper but nothing is set in stone for now
 

Lool

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It would be nice if they told how they will get back to the f 35 project. I don't think it will be possible just by giving back the s 400. They will definitely want more concessions for this.
That is why I said they will stop the MMU program

The S400 isnt the main cause for Turkey's dismissal from the F35 but was a convenient excuse, nothing more!
The US will ask Turkey to halt the TFX in order not to rile up Greece anymore and they will probably force Turkey to have the F35 as its main fighter jet in order to ensure that the Turkish Air Force is under the US mercy
And with two from the table of the 6, HDP and Babacan, promising to go after Baykar, the US and the opposition have effectively crippled the Turkish Air Force
 

Crush716

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As expected
The opposition plans to return to the F35 project which means that there is a high probability for the MMU project to be sidelined or outright scrapped

Why do you just keep throwing false assumptions out there with no proof. They have no intention of scraping anything. Why don’t you share this as well

“Nation Alliance: "Special budget will be provided for the Altay Tank, National Combat Aircraft, TF2000 Frigate projects to progress realistically, and special expert personnel will be allocated to these projects."
 
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