TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

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There is a fine and somewhat hidden information in this article, whereby it is mentioned that the “Özgür” project is in full production mode and deliveries of first two block 30 planes will be made this year. It is also mentioned that the Murad Aeda radar has been included in to the project itself. There is also the information that the Murad Aesa radar will be released for use during the course of this year.
That tells me that these 2 planes and all others following them will be with Aesa radars.
That is the logical thing to do. Without the Murad radar, these planes are no more than modern and updated versions of Block 50+ F16s. Hopefully the Murad Radar will transform these planes in to the monsters we want them to be.
After trying to play with F16C Block 50 in DCS, even the cockpit upgrade seems a lot. So many buttons and displays should make pilots life difficult. The streamlined design is nice. :)
 

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There is a fine and somewhat hidden information in this article, whereby it is mentioned that the “Özgür” project is in full production mode and deliveries of first two block 30 planes will be made this year. It is also mentioned that the Murad Aeda radar has been included in to the project itself. There is also the information that the Murad Aesa radar will be released for use during the course of this year.
That tells me that these 2 planes and all others following them will be with Aesa radars.
That is the logical thing to do. Without the Murad radar, these planes are no more than modern and updated versions of Block 50+ F16s. Hopefully the Murad Radar will transform these planes in to the monsters we want them to be.
Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?
 

TheInsider

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Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?
It is better when MURAD AESA comes into the picture. We will be able to use Gökhan with our F-16s. Viper offers no similar capability. We will probably add the FEWS EW self-defense suite to the Özgür upgrade in the future. At some point, we will replace SPEWS. When we add the ECM Jamming pod and ESM pod on top of those capabilities, we will have better capabilities than say the Greek block 70 Vipers.

Özgür mod will have 2 phases.
Phase-1 avionic upgrade cockpit will be completely upgraded
Phase-2 MURAD AESA radar and MOD/S (it is tied to the AESA radar) upgrade

Özgür upgraded F-16s can be used after the phase 1 avionic upgrade with existing radars. IMHO we will see the real deal in 2025.

BTW new Özgür prototype studies for block 40 and 50 might start soon.
 

Yasar_TR

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Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?
@TheInsider has given you your answer.
There are however couple of points that also makes Özgür better and that can not be measured by any means, and that is the fact of:
1. Özgür will be ours through and through.
2. Unknown entity advantage. Everybody knows what SABR Radar of V70 can do. Especially many countries that will employ it ( By purchasing those kits we will know exactly what it’s weak and strong points are) . But no one will know about our Murad and it’s capabilities and the type of indigenous weapons it can help guide. It is most difficult to defend against what you don’t know.
 

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It cannot be tested on anything Baykar has so,why was it send to Baykar?
By the same token, I could ask "why would they send an untested radar to Baykar if Baykar couldn't test it on AKINCI?" .

I'm not really well versed in the testing campaign of an AESA radar. There probably never was any AESA that was tested on a drone. The countries that are able to develop such an advanced radar will have(or have access to) a dedicated platform to test the instrument.

However, probably, there aren't many(if any) obstacles to test the radar on a drone, given it has the required specs to supply the radar. One problem I can think of is the rated power of AKINCI's generators. AKINCI has more than enough raw power to supply the device but it may not generate as much electric power to test the TR modules to the fullest capacity they were designed for. Other possible problems(in my limited understanding) are the onboard computing power or uplink speed of antennas to transmit the sensor output. But these were known from the beginning and I imagine that the AKINCI platform was designed to handle these requirements from the get go.
 

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Baykar is not the one who is testing the Radar, Baykar duty is to intregate the radar and hand it over to Airforce. The feedback of TuAf is important, Baykar will be consulting the drone.
 

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By the same token, I could ask "why would they send an untested radar to Baykar if Baykar couldn't test it on AKINCI?" .

I'm not really well versed in the testing campaign of an AESA radar. There probably never was any AESA that was tested on a drone. The countries that are able to develop such an advanced radar will have(or have access to) a dedicated platform to test the instrument.

However, probably, there aren't many(if any) obstacles to test the radar on a drone, given it has the required specs to supply the radar. One problem I can think of is the rated power of AKINCI's generators. AKINCI has more than enough raw power to supply the device but it may not generate as much electric power to test the TR modules to the fullest capacity they were designed for. Other possible problems(in my limited understanding) are the onboard computing power or uplink speed of antennas to transmit the sensor output. But these were known from the beginning and I imagine that the AKINCI platform was designed to handle these requirements from the get go.
Dedicated platform is a usually soon to be retired old airliner, of which we have multiple.

One reason others use airliners is because they can accommodate avionics, testing gear and people to run the tests together. Testing the radar on a drone gives you more air time yes, but also requires you to send all that data to ground stations. We have plenty of new platforms that will sport state of the art, never tried before avionics and they all will need to be tested in air, some of them will not fit Akıncı. We have the capability in Turkish Technic to maintain any second hand 737-400/800. They're hardly expensive. Why don't we have a testbed? It's a genuine question I want to know the answer to and no one has any idea. Someone should ask Mr Demir this.
 
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Cabatli_TR

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According to the information shared by TÜBİTAK, the integration project called F-16 DAK was initiated by TÜBİTAK SAGE to solve the problems experienced by the manufacturer country during the integration of national munitions, especially with the F-16 Block 50M and 50+ warplanes.

With the project, fire control solutions of air-ground and air-air munitions developed with national resources
touch screen (ICP) avionics will be developed, which will nationalize the weapons management pilot interface of the F-16 platforms. It is aimed that the project will reach a maturity that can be used within this year.


Very important news.
 

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According to the information shared by TÜBİTAK, the integration project called F-16 DAK was initiated by TÜBİTAK SAGE to solve the problems experienced by the manufacturer country during the integration of national munitions, especially with the F-16 Block 50M and 50+ warplanes.

With the project, fire control solutions of air-ground and air-air munitions developed with national resources
touch screen (ICP) avionics will be developed, which will nationalize the weapons management pilot interface of the F-16 platforms. It is aimed that the project will reach a maturity that can be used within this year.


Very important news.
Discussions on this topic in Turkish defense forums have a history of more than 10 years. If I remember correctly, China is the only country other than us that has a similar solution. We are finally moving to the stage of integrating a solution that can be applied to all blocks as a standard interface. Ending the dependence on US is very important, and will send a serious message.
 

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According to the information shared by TÜBİTAK, the integration project called F-16 DAK was initiated by TÜBİTAK SAGE to solve the problems experienced by the manufacturer country during the integration of national munitions, especially with the F-16 Block 50M and 50+ warplanes.

With the project, fire control solutions of air-ground and air-air munitions developed with national resources
touch screen (ICP) avionics will be developed, which will nationalize the weapons management pilot interface of the F-16 platforms. It is aimed that the project will reach a maturity that can be used within this year.


Very important news.
Is it different from Ozgur project?
 

Sanchez

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Discussions on this topic in Turkish defense forums have a history of more than 10 years. If I remember correctly, China is the only country other than us that has a similar solution. We are finally moving to the stage of integrating a solution that can be applied to all blocks as a standard interface. Ending the dependence on US is very important, and will send a serious message.
Correct, and that is still uncharted territory. I don't think this should be talked about openly and lauded. Apart from B30s or when we introduce HGK as JDAM or other local equivalents as their American counterparts, all our F-16s are FMS aircraft. US has some say in how we modify them. I really doubt we can afford to attract unwanted attention here from the likes of Menendez. That whole ordeal can spiral out from control and see sanctions, very, very quickly.

Yes, it's election season, but this is a matter of life and death for our main air force equipment. We need better equipped people at the helm of government's public relations when in comes to this. Love hearing the news, it would be a lot better if I didn't.
 

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Correct, and that is still uncharted territory. I don't think this should be talked about openly and lauded. Apart from B30s or when we introduce HGK as JDAM or other local equivalents as their American counterparts, all our F-16s are FMS aircraft. US has some say in how we modify them. I really doubt we can afford to attract unwanted attention here from the likes of Menendez. That whole ordeal can spiral out from control and see sanctions, very, very quickly.

Yes, it's election season, but this is a matter of life and death for our main air force equipment. We need better equipped people at the helm of government's public relations when in comes to this. Love hearing the news, it would be a lot better if I didn't.
Very true, it is a very wrong strategy to announce such critical integration activities with drums and zurna, while even in Turkish defense forums, defense enthusiasts and experts usually show the sensitivity of discussing these issues in more secluded corners in areas even closed to guests.
 

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Dedicated platform is a usually soon to be retired old airliner, of which we have multiple.

One reason others use airliners is because they can accommodate avionics, testing gear and people to run the tests together. Testing the radar on a drone gives you more air time yes, but also requires you to send all that data to ground stations. We have plenty of new platforms that will sport state of the art, never tried before avionics and they all will need to be tested in air, some of them will not fit Akıncı. We have the capability in Turkish Technic to maintain any second hand 737-400/800. They're hardly expensive. Why don't we have a testbed? It's a genuine question I want to know the answer to and no one has any idea. Someone should ask Mr Demir this.
Don't we have testbed capacity.If we don't , can't we cooperate with foreign companies on that issue?With companies like British Marshall Aerospace or Leonardo.If I don't remember wrong Koreans are working with Leonardo.
 

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Dedicated platform is a usually soon to be retired old airliner, of which we have multiple.

One reason others use airliners is because they can accommodate avionics, testing gear and people to run the tests together. Testing the radar on a drone gives you more air time yes, but also requires you to send all that data to ground stations. We have plenty of new platforms that will sport state of the art, never tried before avionics and they all will need to be tested in air, some of them will not fit Akıncı. We have the capability in Turkish Technic to maintain any second hand 737-400/800. They're hardly expensive. Why don't we have a testbed? It's a genuine question I want to know the answer to and no one has any idea. Someone should ask Mr Demir this.
Because it takes 2 years to certify an old passenger plane. Initially, the project failed when a definite decision was not taken on this issue.
 

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According to the information shared by TÜBİTAK, the integration project called F-16 DAK was initiated by TÜBİTAK SAGE to solve the problems experienced by the manufacturer country during the integration of national munitions, especially with the F-16 Block 50M and 50+ warplanes.

With the project, fire control solutions of air-ground and air-air munitions developed with national resources
touch screen (ICP) avionics will be developed, which will nationalize the weapons management pilot interface of the F-16 platforms. It is aimed that the project will reach a maturity that can be used within this year.


Very important news.
The Arms Export Control Act(AECA) and the End-Use Monitoring that comes with it.

---

GOLDEN SENTRY END-USE MONITORING PROGRAM:

The Golden Sentry End-Use Monitoring (EUM) program is designed to verify defense articles or services transferred by the United States Government (USG) to foreign recipients are being used in accordance with the terms and conditions of the transfer agreement or other applicable agreement. In accordance with Section 505 of the Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) (22 U.S.C. 2314), as amended, and the Section 3 (22 U.S.C. 2753) and Section 4 (22 U.S.C. 2754) of the Arms Export Control Act, and as reflected in the Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) Standard Terms and Conditions, recipients must agree:

  • to use U.S.-provided defense articles, training, and services only for their intended purpose;
  • not to transfer title to, or possession of, any defense article or related training to anyone not an officer, employee, or agent of that country or of the USG without prior written consent of the USG;
  • to maintain the security of any article with substantially the same degree of protection afforded to it by the USG; and
  • to permit observation and review by, and to furnish necessary information to, representatives of the USG with regards to use of such articles.


EUM provides USG oversight to ensure these conditions are met.
---

There's no statement here that prohibits the modification of the defense article but here's the nitty-gritty of AECA " In accordance with Section 505 of the Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) (22 U.S.C. 2314), as amended, and the Section 3 (22 U.S.C. 2753) and Section 4 (22 U.S.C. 2754) of the Arms Export Control Act". So we have to dive deep in these legal documents.

In the Section 4 of AECA, page 45, "Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the President shall take such actions as may be necessary to require that, at the time of export or reexport of any major defense equipment listed on the 600 series of the Commerce Control List contained in Supplement No. 1 to part 774 of subtitle B of title 15, Code of Federal Regulations, the major defense equipment will not be subsequently modified so as to transform such major defense equipment into a defense article."



I must admit that I wasn't very meticulous when finding these articles as I don't have much time now to analyze the text if it's related to our situation or not. But if you(forum users) have time and like to read gobbledygook, you can shed light on the issue by pointing out the related sections and share your conclusion.
 

Yasar_TR

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All very well. But without the Murad Aesa radar they will still stay as “modernised” block-50+ aircrafts with longer life.
The key is the indigenous Aesa radar with f16s.
Just like the indigenous engine for the MMU.

The idea of turning all f16 aircraft in our inventory in to “Özgür” form is great. But to make it really count and be worthwhile, we have got to get that Aesa radar in to those planes asap. That is what will make those 230+ planes really formidable.
1681504280047.jpeg
 

Huelague

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All very well. But without the Murad Aesa radar they will still stay as “modernised” block-50+ aircrafts with longer life.
The key is the indigenous Aesa radar with f16s.
Just like the indigenous engine for the MMU.

The idea of turning all f16 aircraft in our inventory in to “Özgür” form is great. But to make it really count and be worthwhile, we have got to get that Aesa radar in to those planes asap. That is what will make those 230+ planes really formidable.
View attachment 56217

I wish they get additional fuel tank.
 

TheInsider

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According to the information shared by TÜBİTAK, the integration project called F-16 DAK was initiated by TÜBİTAK SAGE to solve the problems experienced by the manufacturer country during the integration of national munitions, especially with the F-16 Block 50M and 50+ warplanes.

With the project, fire control solutions of air-ground and air-air munitions developed with national resources
touch screen (ICP) avionics will be developed, which will nationalize the weapons management pilot interface of the F-16 platforms. It is aimed that the project will reach a maturity that can be used within this year.


Very important news.
This project is for non-Özgür F-16s. We want to use national air-to-air missiles from them as soon as possible but experiencing problems with blocks 50+ and 50M. Özgür will take time to reach block 50Ms and we have no plans to apply Özgür to 50+ right now.
 

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