TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[BordoEnes]

I still believe

 

[Kartal1]

My thoughts aided by the thoughts of other people and some articles on that issue are that Turkey if buys a plane should concentrate on the air superiority aspect of it. The Turkish Armed Forces and the Gendarmerie General Command with its modern multirole conventional fighter fleet, hundreds of drones in different sizes, different configuration and capability to launch smart and even standoff munitions have an A2G capability that is simply not present in the region both on strategic surgical strikes level and also CAS.

Other than the pure numbers, a capable radar and capability to launch modern US AA munitions I am not sure what pros these F-16 could give us in the A2A realm. I mean its better than nothing but if we talk about A2A we need more. For that purpose I think the solution that would give an appropriate answer to the threats for Turkey in the region and is sourced in the US would be the F-15EX featuring RAM coating, internal weapons bay, AN/APG-82 AESA radar, Eagle Passive/Active Warning and Survivability System (EPAWSS) and these capabilities would really bring a change to the A2A game of the Turkish Air Forces.

 

[Manomed]

My thoughts aided by the thoughts of other people and some articles on that issue are that Turkey if buys a plane should concentrate on the air superiority aspect of it. The Turkish Armed Forces and the Gendarmerie General Command with its modern multirole conventional fighter fleet, hundreds of drones in different sizes, different configuration and capability to launch smart and even standoff munitions have an A2G capability that is simply not present in the region both on strategic surgical strikes level and also CAS.

Other than the pure numbers, a capable radar and capability to launch modern US AA munitions I am not sure what pros these F-16 could give us in the A2A realm. I mean its better than nothing but if we talk about A2A we need more. For that purpose I think the solution that would give an appropriate answer to the threats for Turkey in the region and is sourced in the US would be the F-15EX featuring RAM coating, internal weapons bay, AN/APG-82 AESA radar, Eagle Passive/Active Warning and Survivability System (EPAWSS) and these capabilities would really bring a change to the A2A game of the Turkish Air Forces.

Better than F-35 tbh

 

[Ravenman]

I said it long time ago. Before we bought the S400 or cooperated in the F35 project, we should have bought some 60 F15's.

 

[Huelague]

Russian jets are garbage

No.

 

[Oublious]

Stayinh with f16 is the best choice, if we did get other fighters like Eurofighter or Gripen. Believe me in case of war against Greece they would ambargo us and our fighters would be grounded. With F16, we would able to let the fighter still fly even LM stopped delivering parts, looks like we will give americans the finger if they stop delivering parts to the F16. All of them will be Aselsan upgrade if the case comes that far.

 

[Cypro]

My thoughts aided by the thoughts of other people and some articles on that issue are that Turkey if buys a plane should concentrate on the air superiority aspect of it. The Turkish Armed Forces and the Gendarmerie General Command with its modern multirole conventional fighter fleet, hundreds of drones in different sizes, different configuration and capability to launch smart and even standoff munitions have an A2G capability that is simply not present in the region both on strategic surgical strikes level and also CAS.

Other than the pure numbers, a capable radar and capability to launch modern US AA munitions I am not sure what pros these F-16 could give us in the A2A realm. I mean its better than nothing but if we talk about A2A we need more. For that purpose I think the solution that would give an appropriate answer to the threats for Turkey in the region and is sourced in the US would be the F-15EX featuring RAM coating, internal weapons bay, AN/APG-82 AESA radar, Eagle Passive/Active Warning and Survivability System (EPAWSS) and these capabilities would really bring a change to the A2A game of the Turkish Air Forces.

Of course all of us dreaming about F15s for decades but that would cost a fortune and it is a very big unstealthy bird. Now Turkey should find a stop gap which is more capable than Hurjet, easy to maintain and cheap. For A2A all focus should be on TFX, besides getting Eurofighters could be much easier than getting F15s, USA would no probably give them, if they give, it will be overpriced. Block 70s are also capable in terms of A2A combat, agile and solid platform.

Nowadays plane is not important, radar and engagement range and weapons are important.

 

[Kartal1]

I would very much like to know your opinion... US operates the aging F-15 fleet in air defense/superiority role (we are heavily investing on our air defence network to reduce the workload on our jets) and almost all agree that the advanced features of the EX will provide a greater leverage/advantage to USAF, or any other force operating these fighters. And the EX is powered by GE (F110, if I am not mistaken), so logistics and support will not be a nightmare (for us, at least).

So far so good. But in almost all sources I have read recently, I notice a tendency to compare it with the F-35, and discuss 15EX’s worthiness on this comparison. Experts, in general, state that the F-15EX will be in a more defensive role (contrary to claims) in heavily defended zones. Many criticize that the EX will not be as efficient today (with new generation radar networks and air defence systems in service) as it lacks many of the vital systems/qualities that the F-35s possess. And that there is a great deal of hype surrounding the latest re-incarnation of F-15 legend.

Besides these criticisms, all of us are aware of the political gridlock we have been going through with the US. How likely do you see an F15EX purchase, and will they serve as efficient under TurAF, given that the US has a much different strategy in intercepting, and defending against airborne threats?

The cost? Not there yet!

What I said above is something like a wet dream. I think that the US will neither give us F-16s or F-15s.

On the other questions I think that 4.5 Gen fighters will still be a reality on the battlefield for a long time. While we are talking about 5th and 6th Gen aircrafts their operation is very costly so they will be used in the environment where the sophisticated sensor fusion, electronic warfare, compatibility with unmanned assets and other critical capabilities will be mostly needed. 4th/4.5th Gen will be a lower tier capability within the armed forces of different countries. While big and advanced countries with powerful armed forces, defence industries fielded 5th Gen aircrafts and are developing 6th Gen and are talking about fielding them in like 2030s they are also talking about keeping 4th Gen (+) aircrafts in service until 2060. This is why 4th Gen aircrafts will evolve with different alterations and take some of the capabilities of the 5th Gen aircrafts without making them to costly for operation (4.5 Gen).

5th Gen aircrafts have very good capabilities in terms of stealth but they have lower payload capacity and their weapons in order to keep the stealth must be carried internally. In a possible scenario where you face advanced air defence system and radar network 5th Gen aircrafts would be used to damage critically that network by shortening the distance as much as it is possible due to their low observability, confuse their targets due to capability for working with UAVs and advanced decoys, hit their targets from a standoff range and open up the airspace. After that 4th/4.5th Gen fighters like F-15EX are coming with their bigger payload in order to assist the 5th Gen fleet in their missions and that also brings the benefit of more cost effective operations.

I am not an expert but that is how I see things in the future.

 

[Stuka]

Perhaps it is noteworthy that the F16 belongs to Lockheed Martin and the F15 to Boeing
Lockheed and TUSAS have been Cooperating until 2005 when LM sold its shares.

Quote:
"The Turkish owners are acquiring the U.S. owned shares as part of Turkey's plan to consolidate its defense industry into a single company.
TAI produced 240 F-16 aircraft for Turkey during the 1980s and 1990s and assembled 46 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force. Building on these operations, the company expanded its activities to include aero structures manufacturing and production of other fixed and rotary wing aircraft, in addition to aerospace design and development."

"We congratulate TAI and the government of Turkey for evolving the joint venture effort into a world class aerospace company. Lockheed Martin looks forward to continuing to work with TAI in the future on mutually beneficial programs, including the modernization of Turkish F-16s and participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program,"
"TAI achieved a registered success in terms of quality and customer satisfaction in the Peace Onyx Program, the scope of which was to co-produce and deliver 240 F-16C/D aircraft to the Turkish Air Force."

Lockheed Martin Sells Its Share of Turkish Joint Venture to Turkish Aircraft Industries, Inc. (TUSAS)

Lockheed Martin Corporation has sold its 42 percent stake in the joint venture company TUSAS Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) to Turkish Aircraft Industries, Inc. (TUSAS). Terms were not...

news.lockheedmartin.com

> These Companies have history together and share of work could be quite beneficial for Turkey,
F16s
T70 Black Hawks are also owned by LM

> Additionally to that is the F110 GE 129 Engines by General Electric a Stakeholder at TEI. Aksit claimed they can Produce 50% of the Engine.
The Engine are also to be used in the Initial TFX Aircrafts. The Amount of Orders for all could push GE to share even more work with TEI.

>Future Acquisition.
AIRBUS isn't necessarily selling to Turkey much lately, perhaps the French have their Hands in that.
A330 MRTT is needed by the TurAF and Lockheed Martin could provide that with majority share being held by them.

LMXT: Built in America. By Americans. For Americans. ​

Aircraft

Discover Lockheed Martin's military aircraft leadership in combat, air mobility, and reconnaissance. Advanced technology for unmatched capabilities.

www.lockheedmartin.com

 

[Ahmad]

Turkey should buy JF 17 block 3. It will gives Turkey Access to high tech PL 15 air to air missiles.

 

[Manomed]

Turkey should buy JF 17 block 3. It will gives Turkey Access to high tech PL 15 air to air missiles.

JF-17 does not bring anything new to the table. We don't need a jet can do F-16s duties.

 

[Manomed]

No.

Even the basic F-16 Block 40s can outperform Su-35s in BVR or their radar...

 

[Stuka]

Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force -sources​

By Humeyra Pamuk and Mike Stone

WASHINGTON, Oct 7 (Reuters) - Turkey has made a request to the U.S. to buy 40 Lockheed Martin-made F-16 fighter jets and nearly 80 modernization kits for its existing warplanes, as the NATO ally looks to modernize its Air Force after the purchase of F-35 jets fell through, sources familiar with the matter said.

The deal, worth billions, is still working its way through the Foreign Military Sales process which is subject to approval by the U.S. State Department as well as the U.S. Congress which can block deals.

The people spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the deal.

"As a matter of policy, the Department does not confirm or comment on proposed defense sales or transfers until they have been formally notified to Congress," a spokesperson for the State Department said. The Turkish Embassy in Washington declined to comment.

Ankara had ordered more than 100 F-35 jets, also made by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), but was removed from the program in 2019 after it acquired Russian S-400 missile defense systems.

The decades-old partnership between the NATO allies has gone through unprecedented tumult in the past five years over disagreements on Syria policy, Ankara’s closer ties with Moscow, its naval ambitions in the eastern Mediterranean, U.S. charges against a state-owned Turkish bank and erosion of rights and freedoms in Turkey.

The request for the jets will likely have a difficult time getting approval from the U.S. Congress, where sentiment towards Turkey has soured deeply over recent years, primarily due to Ankara's purchase of the S-400s and its problematic human rights track record.

Ankara's purchase of the S-400s has also triggered U.S. sanctions. In December 2020, Washington blacklisted Turkey's Defense Industry Directorate, its chief, Ismail Demir, and three other employees.


Since then the U.S. has repeatedly warned Turkey against buying further Russian weaponry. But last week, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan indicated Ankara still intended to buy a second batch of S-400s from Russia, a move that could deepen a rift with Washington.

There is bipartisan support in U.S. Congress to push the Biden administration to put further pressure on Ankara, primarily over its purchase of Russian weapons and its human rights track record.

Ankara has said it hopes for better ties under U.S. President Joe Biden.

Reports of the Turkish request were first reported by Greek defense outlet Defense Review.

Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force -sources

Turkey has made a request to the U.S. to buy 40 Lockheed Martin-made F-16 fighter jets and nearly 80 modernization kits for its existing warplanes, as the NATO ally looks to modernize its Air Force after the purchase of F-35 jets fell through, sources familiar with the matter said.

www.reuters.com

 

[Elaser]

Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force -sources​

By Humeyra Pamuk and Mike Stone

View attachment 33174

WASHINGTON, Oct 7 (Reuters) - Turkey has made a request to the U.S. to buy 40 Lockheed Martin-made F-16 fighter jets and nearly 80 modernization kits for its existing warplanes, as the NATO ally looks to modernize its Air Force after the purchase of F-35 jets fell through, sources familiar with the matter said.

The deal, worth billions, is still working its way through the Foreign Military Sales process which is subject to approval by the U.S. State Department as well as the U.S. Congress which can block deals.

The people spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the deal.

"As a matter of policy, the Department does not confirm or comment on proposed defense sales or transfers until they have been formally notified to Congress," a spokesperson for the State Department said. The Turkish Embassy in Washington declined to comment.

Ankara had ordered more than 100 F-35 jets, also made by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), but was removed from the program in 2019 after it acquired Russian S-400 missile defense systems.

The decades-old partnership between the NATO allies has gone through unprecedented tumult in the past five years over disagreements on Syria policy, Ankara’s closer ties with Moscow, its naval ambitions in the eastern Mediterranean, U.S. charges against a state-owned Turkish bank and erosion of rights and freedoms in Turkey.

The request for the jets will likely have a difficult time getting approval from the U.S. Congress, where sentiment towards Turkey has soured deeply over recent years, primarily due to Ankara's purchase of the S-400s and its problematic human rights track record.

Ankara's purchase of the S-400s has also triggered U.S. sanctions. In December 2020, Washington blacklisted Turkey's Defense Industry Directorate, its chief, Ismail Demir, and three other employees.


Since then the U.S. has repeatedly warned Turkey against buying further Russian weaponry. But last week, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan indicated Ankara still intended to buy a second batch of S-400s from Russia, a move that could deepen a rift with Washington.

There is bipartisan support in U.S. Congress to push the Biden administration to put further pressure on Ankara, primarily over its purchase of Russian weapons and its human rights track record.

Ankara has said it hopes for better ties under U.S. President Joe Biden.

Reports of the Turkish request were first reported by Greek defense outlet Defense Review.

Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force -sources

Turkey has made a request to the U.S. to buy 40 Lockheed Martin-made F-16 fighter jets and nearly 80 modernization kits for its existing warplanes, as the NATO ally looks to modernize its Air Force after the purchase of F-35 jets fell through, sources familiar with the matter said.

www.reuters.com

This can cost 9-10 billion dollars...

 

[Khagan1923]

If they are really doing this they need to push the demands to the limit.


AIM-120D Missiles
Legion Pods

and other goodies.

This can cost 9-10 billion dollars...

~4 Billion for 40 Aircrafts

1-2 Billion for 80 packages.

If other goodies included (AIM-120D, Legion Pods) maybe another 1 Billion for those.

5-8 Billion Dollars in the end.


If this is legit why has there not been a request for F-15 Advanced/EX or even F-18 Block III first? Yes more expensive but wouldn't that be worth a shot.

The refurbished Air Base for the F-35 could have been used to house the F-15 or F-18.

It will be vetoed anyway. Because the US Senate is fillled with people who aren't the smartest in the shed.

 

[CAN_TR]

The funny part is that the Goverment is literally screaming to buy another batch of S-400 systems, while in the same time asking the US for 40 new F-16 and upgrading 80 others.

 

[Trakya_forever]

It is sure that this request is going to be vetoed. A scenario is on the way. You didn't sell even F16s, what could we do? Be ready for an extensive military contract and cooperation with Russia. Perhaps it includes second batch of S400S, even S500, some Sukhois, some missiles and cooperation in some critical areas.

 

[the]

The funny part is that the Goverment is literally screaming to buy another batch of S-400 systems, while in the same time asking the US for 40 new F-16 and upgrading 80 others.

That's the whole point. If the USA doesn't agree to the request, it gives Turkey an excuse to look for other alternatives - whether this is Russian or Chinese equipment.

imo this whole situation is strategic mess for Turkey. You had the option to purchase F-35s (with the potential of acquiring F-35B variant that could have been deployed on TCG Anadolu) but now you are left with S-400s in storage and only the potential to upgrade F-16s.........

What would you rather have:

1. 120 F35s & host European maintenance hub & Turkish firms supplying over 900 pieces of equipment (constant stream of revenue) ---> $11 billion

2. Unused S-400s & 40 new F16V & 80 upgrade modules & a range of missiles --> $8 billion (including the cost of the S-400s)

So essentially, for $ 3-4 billion more Turkey would have access to a 5th generation fighter and be able to supply certain parts and host the maintenance hub, which would undoubtably recuperate the cost of purchasing the aircraft in the near future.

 

[Trakya_forever]

Come on guys, please be realistic. Among the problems between Turkey and US, S400 matter is not even a problem, but it is the symbol of the fight, only the tip of the icerberg. Thus both sides insist on them. For Turkey it is bargainable, for the US it is the first step to push back Turkey.

Suppose that Erdoğan said "We deported S400, even we burned them with 80 degrees cologne" Whats going to happen? The fight will end? US will send F35s or lift the all embargos? It is certian that they will ask for Cyprus, Syria, PKK/YPG, Libya, Mid East next. This will not end. All of you know that perfectly.

The latest news, If its true, a smart move from Turkey on the chess table. The ball is in the US court now. They will decide "do or die"

 

[AWP]

1. 120 F35s & host European maintenance hub & Turkish firms supplying over 900 pieces of equipment (constant stream of revenue) ---> $11 billion

2. Unused S-400s & 40 new F16V & 80 upgrade modules & a range of missiles --> $8 billion (including the cost of the S-400s)

1- you will have useless 120 f-35 that you can't use it against pkk rats or incase of war with greek .

2- the whole point of f-35 that the US can always shut down Turkey politicly by using that as a leverage incase Turkey went against the US policy or used the f-35 on greek or pkk . look at how the US treat KSA ( one of it's biggest ally and weaponry buyer ) .

3- the unused s-400 it's the government fault .

at the end and am so sorry to say it in these words but I couldn't find a better way to say it . Either Turkey be the ( US bitc* ) or be with ( Untrust worthy Russia ) .

for me , I would put all that money into the Turkish defense industry and have faith in my people + the next s400 deal with russia have to be fully technology transfer for turkey to produces it's version of s-400 , the same with what South Korea ( US ally ) did with the s-350 Vityaz ended with South Korea having Cheongung defense system .