TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[dBSPL]

I don’t understand why TuAF just doesn’t order 100 Hurjet, sign the deal and lock it. The configuration doesn’t fucking matter anymore.

If TuAF is forced to fight with paperfly they’ll fucking fight with it and make it work!

6-7 squadrons of Hürjet F-Xs, equipped with possible maximum common avionics infrastructure with the MMU, could even be capable of intercepting the air power of all countries other than Israel, Russia and Greece in all our border regions. There is a very simple thing we need to do in the variant expansion of the Hürjet: Taking Korea as an example.

 

[TheInsider]

I'm against Turkiye returning the F-35 project except for industrial participation. Greek F-35 is not an immediate threat. Even if the US offers delivery slots reserved for the USAF Greece won't get any F-35 before the end of 2028 and most likely get their first F-35s in 2031 like the Czech Republic. If relations with the US improve Navy should get 20 F-35Bs and that is it.



So how should Turkiye counter F-35s other than deploying the 5th-generation air superiority fighter Kaan?

We should deploy a network of passive radars, L band, and UHF/VHF band early warning radars.

We should deploy satellites and pseudo satellites (both EO and SAR) to watch the air bases of Greece. We should also listen to those bases if you can't listen to the bird, listen to the base.

Invest in both land-based and airborne EW assets like (Koral-II, IHA-SOJ, and Hava-SOJ)

The carrying capacity of F-35s in stealth configuration is limited, we should defend critical infrastructure against effectors launched/dropped by F-35s so we should invest in short-range/point air defense to hit whatever F-35s launch/drop. Hit the payload, if you can't hit the bird.

We should mass produce long-range precision weapons in sufficient numbers that can cover every inch of Greece. We should also create a new missile forces command. New missile command should have cruise missiles(300+km), ballistic missiles(300+km), and kamikaze UAVs(300+km) and should be responsible for conducting strategic strikes to degrade enemy airforce operation capability. The command should prioritize aircraft hangars, control towers, fuel production and refueling facilities, maintenance, rearm and repair facilities, command centers, and armories. Hit the base, infrastructure, and logistic chain if you can't hit the bird.

Produce precision long-range artillery rounds. 70+km is easily achievable with current 155mm/52cal artillery guns. Produce huge amounts of rocket artillery up to 300km range. This will have a strategic effect at a tactical level.

Quickly complete long-range Anka-III deep strike UAV project and station it deep inside Anatolia to have second strike capability in case of an unprovoked attack by the enemy.

Quickly complete Gezgin and Sub-Atmaca so that our submarines can hit targets deep inside enemy territory.

Increase production capacity for ammunition, missiles, and kamikaze UAVs for a long confrontation and remind the other side and relevant parties that we have what it takes to continue the war and that war won't be over in a week.

F-35 is a strong asset but it is not a silver bullet to win a war.

 

[Saithan]

6-7 squadrons of Hürjet F-Xs, equipped with possible maximum common avionics infrastructure with the MMU, could even be capable of intercepting the air power of all countries other than Israel, Russia and Greece in all our border regions. There is a very simple thing we need to do in the variant expansion of the Hürjet: Taking Korea as an example.

Why wait for MMU? Hürjet light attack configuration should be implemented and orders be made already.

we should make and have as much experienced pilot on them as possible.

ordering 100 engines should be prioritized compared to the F-16 purchase.
Let that be a test to see if US truly wants to smooth things over.

we want to bind and lock the deal in case US wants to blackmail us. Failure to deliver agreed engines should cost GE shitload of money

 

[Sanchez]

F-35 is a strong asset but it is not a silver bullet to win a war.

It certainly is not but it is perfect for the kind of small and short conflict Turkey may be pulled into against Greece. A long seeing, not being seen AMRAAM machine. We can't afford to lose air superiority against a country like Greece.

 

[Rooxbar]

If we can indigenously design and manufacture many of the subsystems for Kaan, our helicopters, naval vessels, variety of munitions and ew and comms systems, it's not because our defense companies and our engineers are getting divine revelation about the know-how of these cutting edge technologies or that we spent huge sums of money on R&D for decades to develop them indigenously. Our difference with the likes of Iran, or even Russia and China, to a certain degree, has been our integration into the ecosystem of western industry. Some people think that when we develop our indigenous programs and are almost fully independent in that regard in the coming decade, history ends there since we have learnt it all. No, we will still need to be integrated into the latest and greatest developments in the world one way or the other, as U.S. and other Western countries are still at the cutting edge of developing technology, have the best universities with the deepest pockets, and the best human capital absorption rates because of that, and also the fattest R&D budgets. When we finish with the current generation of weapons, there's about zero guarantee that the technological advances that might happen in the coming decades will be achieved by us in complete isolation. We will still need to cooperate, buy and engage. I'm not saying we will not be able to innovate even more than others in some regards or at least replicate certain advancements, but the top of the line stuff which is the result of decades long research and multinational cooperation in the best universities of the world is always very hard to match by local R&D alone. I'm not against learning and being engaged with China or Russia either, but everybody knows in these matters it's either this or that, but not both together.

 

[Heartbang]

Guys, many messages were moved and some were deleted.

We are seeing a big number of off topic posts in the last week. Please let's help each other and keep the discussion as relevant to the name of the thread as much as possible. Otherwise we will be forced to take harsher measures.

There are many relevant threads for different discussions like the Air Forces thread, KAAN thread, Greece-Turkiye relationship and also nobody limit you guys to open new threads if you think the forum is lacking something. If you decide that you would go off topic I advice you to quote the post you want to respond in the relevant thread and continue discussion there.

Thank you!

Man, I wrote my fingers off to explain escalation dominance

I know its not the correct thread here for that kind of thing, but could you at least move it to a more relevant thread, so it could be more useful to the folk here?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Iskander]

The Türkiye website writes that Lockheed Martin can produce 4 units of F16 per month. But with many countries waiting in line, the first F16s could be delivered in 2029 at best. Ankara is in a hurry and does not want to wait, so it offers to immediately deliver its planes from the warehouse, or to manufacture and modernize them in Turkey.
After all this, I personally have the famous Shakespearean question

 

[hawk21]

I have a question:

Let's say the procurement budget of TurAF for the next 20 years is $X Billion dollars. Out of this:

$ 20 billion goes to F-16V
$ 7-10 billion for Eurofighters
$ 7-10 billion for F-35s

How much will be left to complete the development of TFX and its engine after you have taken out some 40 billion dollars from your procurement budget and spent it on not one but 3 different combat aircraft?

Even if you could somehow do all of this, how many TFX are you gonna be able to actually procure with whatever is left?

At this point, I'm starting to believe that buying anything other than F-16 kits creates an unacceptable financial risk for the TFX.

Maybe that is the intent here.

 

[Bozan]

I have a question:

Let's say the procurement budget of TurAF for the next 20 years is $X Billion dollars. Out of this:

$ 20 billion goes to F-16V
$ 7-10 billion for Eurofighters
$ 7-10 billion for F-35s

How much will be left to complete the development of TFX and its engine after you have taken out some 40 billion dollars from your procurement budget and spent it on not one but 3 different combat aircraft?

Even if you could somehow do all of this, how many TFX are you gonna be able to actually procure with whatever is left?

At this point, I'm starting to believe that buying anything other than F-16 kits creates an unacceptable financial risk for the TFX.

Maybe that is the intent here.

There is an off the books Erdogan budget

 

[uçuyorum]

The Türkiye website writes that Lockheed Martin can produce 4 units of F16 per month. But with many countries waiting in line, the first F16s could be delivered in 2029 at best. Ankara is in a hurry and does not want to wait, so it offers to immediately deliver its planes from the warehouse, or to manufacture and modernize them in Turkey.
After all this, I personally have the famous Shakespearean question

New vipers aren't urgent. As soon as we get at least a couple of existing ones modernized and delivered further embargoes become increasingly unlikely.

 

[Fairon]

Maaaaybe 40 new Viper order could be turned into F35's and only modernization kits will be acquired. That could be an option.(a risky one)

 

[Sanchez]

New vipers aren't urgent. As soon as we get at least a couple of existing ones modernized and delivered further embargoes become increasingly unlikely.

This is the least fighters we had since the second world war. F-4s are also goners. HvKK shrinked half to its size since 1990.

 

[uçuyorum]

This is the least fighters we had since the second world war. F-4s are also goners. HvKK shrinked half to its size since 1990.

We do have a disproportionately large UAV fleet at least

 

[Sanchez]

We do have a disproportionately large UAV fleet at least

Which do come very handy but you're not replacing 20k MTOW F-16's that go Mach 1.6 with 700kilo TB2s that go 150kts. Even for ground ops, when we want to deal some real damage, it's F-16s with HGK-83s in double rails, not Akıncıs. What's the current Akıncı number anyway, I don't remember a delivery announcement for at least a year. Last number is what, 6-7?

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

I think we're missing an important factor... one of the reasons why the USA is suddenly open to selling F-35s is coming threat of Anka 3s and Kızılelmas, as well as other unmanned stealth platforms.

Sure, neither aircraft is as potent as a true 5th gen fighter, but they also have their unique advantages. If we mass produce a few hundred of these babies, any military would think twice before trying anything... Plus I'm sure Turkish Aerospace is already working on Anka 4.

Our interim solution until KAAN is already here.

Watch, as soon as we conduct air-to-air tests or better yet, shoot down an Armenian or Syrian fighter jet with a Kızılelma, the US will beg to sell us F35s.

 

[what]

I have a question:

Let's say the procurement budget of TurAF for the next 20 years is $X Billion dollars. Out of this:

$ 20 billion goes to F-16V
$ 7-10 billion for Eurofighters
$ 7-10 billion for F-35s

How much will be left to complete the development of TFX and its engine after you have taken out some 40 billion dollars from your procurement budget and spent it on not one but 3 different combat aircraft?

Even if you could somehow do all of this, how many TFX are you gonna be able to actually procure with whatever is left?

At this point, I'm starting to believe that buying anything other than F-16 kits creates an unacceptable financial risk for the TFX.

Maybe that is the intent here.

Both the F35 project and 100+ orders and TF-X aka KAAN were planned simultaneously initially.
Maybe the deliveries of KAAN would have been stretched over more years, maybe KAAN itself would have been a cheaper plane but there was and is enough budget for both. Otherwise we would have never made the plans accordingly.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

That's right, we would just have to add at least 30-40 Kizilelma to our inventory by 2028. Together with the F16 Özgur version, we would then already have a bulwark in the airspace in advance.

Akinci/Aksungur and TB3/TB2S could simply monitor the airspace permanently with their patrols and exert physiological pressure.
The Greeks have nothing comparable at the moment that can patrol continuously for at least 24-48 hours, with an AESA radar and multiple BVRAAM they would be a serious threat. While the drones would be really easy targets due to lack of maneuverability + speed and stealth, multiple squadrons of 6-8 drones each in the air would make up for it.
I'd love to see the F-16 or F-35 with at least 7-8 BVRAAMs pointed at them.
The funny thing would be that we would force them to launch their expensive aircraft, you could play cat and mouse with them every day, and they would have to take on expensive maintenance and extra wear and tear unlike us.
They know we won't pull the trigger, but forcing them to go on patrol with their planes is a big win in itself and they know we're doing it on purpose to piss them off.
Apart from that, the AESA radar built into the drones could be calibrated to the F-35 and Eurofighter by gradually decoding the radar signature.

 

[godel44]

So, let me ask something to the experts here about Kizilelma's performance against 4th gen aircraft. Not that it's an alternative to modernization of the F-16s or Kaan of course but many seem to be quite pessimistic about the A-A capabilities of KE whereas it seems like a very well-thought solution to me. So maybe I am missing something.

KE is supposed to have an RCS that is a lot smaller than F-16V and Rafale. Its radar will be a GaN based AESA radar which may be a scaled-down version of the one in F-16 Ozgur but still quite capable. So it seems like, primarily due to having a stealth design, it will be able to spot a F-16V or Rafale before it gets spotted and it will have Gokdogan missiles that will have long enough range to take advantage of the gap. F-16V and Rafale also have capable EW self-defense systems but if they don't see the KE, they can't make use of them.

So what is the issue here exactly? Would the radar on KE be too weak to spot the enemy (in which case the obvious solution is to use a bigger engine and radar) or would the enemy aircraft have passive EW self-defense? Or do people believe Kizilelma cannot be built with these specs in the near future?

In the absence of any issues I assume KE would be a good solution to any 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft we might face. Not to mention that a pack of KEs going against smaller numbers of enemy planes make it even more nightmarish for the enemy.

 

[Relic]

Maaaaybe 40 new Viper order could be turned into F35's and only modernization kits will be acquired. That could be an option.(a risky one)

Why not make the following deal with USA?... Send all S-400 systems and interceptor missiles procured from Russia to Ukraine, along with a healthy quantity of 155mm artillery shells... In exchange for F-16's becoming F-35's and the lost value of S-400s in Patriots with PAC 3?

Everyone gets what they want / need

 

[B_A]

So, let me ask something to the experts here about Kizilelma's performance against 4th gen aircraft. Not that it's an alternative to modernization of the F-16s or Kaan of course but many seem to be quite pessimistic about the A-A capabilities of KE whereas it seems like a very well-thought solution to me. So maybe I am missing something.

KE is supposed to have an RCS that is a lot smaller than F-16V and Rafale. Its radar will be a GaN based AESA radar which may be a scaled-down version of the one in F-16 Ozgur but still quite capable. So it seems like, primarily due to having a stealth design, it will be able to spot a F-16V or Rafale before it gets spotted and it will have Gokdogan missiles that will have long enough range to take advantage of the gap. F-16V and Rafale also have capable EW self-defense systems but if they don't see the KE, they can't make use of them.

So what is the issue here exactly? Would the radar on KE be too weak to spot the enemy (in which case the obvious solution is to use a bigger engine and radar) or would the enemy aircraft have passive EW self-defense? Or do people believe Kizilelma cannot be built with these specs in the near future?

In the absence of any issues I assume KE would be a good solution to any 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft we might face. Not to mention that a pack of KEs going against smaller numbers of enemy planes make it even more nightmarish for the enemy.

Didnt because Current KE engine is too weak and too slow?

Current KE can only flight 0.6 -0.9Mach