TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[uçuyorum]

The new legislation being talked about for additional funding of defence spendings also kind of confirms this, it means a sudden new purchase is around

 

[Zafer]

The new legislation being talked about for additional funding of defence spendings also kind of confirms this, it means a sudden new purchase is around

It says defence industry and not defence procurement, reporting may be inaccurate though.

 

[Zafer]

No, it can't. Saying you can speed things up with hard work is like saying all you need is a firm handshake to get a job. And, it is very insulting to suggest that people working on TF35K aren't working hard enough. Shame on you.

And throwing money at it can only help up to point because the bottleneck in this process isn't just the money. Our expertise on engines, especially an engine like TF35K, is limited which also limits the personnel that can reliably and expertly work on it. Throw all our military budget on it, if we don't have enough qualified people that can work on the engine, it wouldn't change a thing.


Let me correct you there. We are a year or two away from TF6K start its flight tests which will take maybe a year or two as well; then, if there are not setbacks it'll enter LRIP. Also, pretty much this whole process will have to start again with TF10K, which is the engine that could make KE on par with fighter jets, which is not a guaranteed at all.


Who are you to say that? Do you know why the air force wants F-16s and EFs? What their plans and expectations are? Do you have the sensitive information they would have on the projects going on right now? What makes your version of events, an outsiders point of view, makes rational while decisions made by people with actual knowledge are irrational?

I think this has to be said, blind faith and support is not patriotism, its nationalism and that is what caused the fall of great many empires. A country turning into rapid yes men only creates complacency and down the road, ruin. Real patriotism is knowing the shortfalls of your country and wanting to fix them, not turning a blind eye to them.

Same thing applies to all of our projects as well. Yes, we have many amazing projects and many success stories, but that doesn't mean we don't need anything from any other country and can take care of ourselves completely. I hope it'll be the case one day, but it isn't right now. We need engines for multiple projects, we need ejection seat for all our planes, we need upgrade packages and munitions and yes, we clearly also need jets.

On top of that, we have to be able to acknowledge that not everything we make or are going to make will be the top of its class every time, which is a behaviour I've seen time and again as well. We don't need everything to be the best in the world, we need them to fulfil the criteria set by our military, pass their tests and work reliably.

As I said before, we need to plant our feet firmly on the ground and get our heads out of the clouds. We have to know what our capabilities and more importantly, our limitations are and instead of stretching ourselves too thin or falling for our own story of our greatness, make logical decisions even if they might seem less than ideal.

All your arguments suggest we shovel money into mouths of the enemy. Those weapon makers are to stand in front of us as enemies. And those weapons can only be used against their enemies and not ours.

Hard work for an organization means putting more man hours and resources on projects and not necessarily making engineers work long hours. It means buying computers that do a better job, employing supporting scientific disciplines to speed up analysis and tests. Ordering components to multiple makers to make sure a faster procurement is provided. It is planning in a manner where no time is lost waiting for components from a single source to arrive. It is starting the ejecting seat development earlier rather than later. Training more people to find out gems among them. It means doing what you would be expected to do over the years in a shorter time.

Save you blabber to who will buy it, shame on you underestimating Türkiye, we keep moving faster than you wish.

 

[boredaf]

And those weapons can only be used against their enemies and not ours.

That doesn't make sense since we have been using their weapons against our enemies for decades, including this very year. Or do you think F-16s we've been using are from some other magical country other than the US?

Hard work for an organization means putting more man hours

not necessarily making engineers work long hours

These two literally contradict each other.

It means buying computers that do a better job, employing supporting scientific disciplines to speed up analysis and tests. Ordering components to multiple makers to make sure a faster procurement is provided. It is planning in a manner where no time is lost waiting for components from a single source to arrive. It is starting the ejecting seat development earlier rather than later.

It means doing what you would be expected to do over the years in a shorter time.

Nothing you say here has any basis on reality, par course for you. Shoulda woulda coulda. We are talking about Eurofighter procurement while you're talking in general platitudes and vague concept that might do this or that. Where are those computers coming from? What scientific "disciplines" that we are not employing right now that is going to speed up analysis and tests? Who are those companies that we could order components but we don't? And which components are those? Starting the ejection seat earlier? Doing what would take years in a shorter time? Now you've gone full on into time machine territory, how on earth is that a realistic argument?

Training more people to find out gems among them.

Where are those people are going to come from and who is going to train them? Universities that already have a problem with providing quality education in many subjects? To students who have been failed and fallen behind against other countries thanks to 2 decades of politicised education system? Another empty platitude that doesn't have a real meaning, and not just because what I have already said, but mostly because this is not something that could be done in a year or two, a change like that takes decades to actually take effect. You are not going to change a student who barely passed high school into a competent technician or engineer by just throwing money at them. Change like that start from the bottom and takes years to implement, especially since you also have to get people interested in what you need to being with.

All your arguments suggest we shovel money into mouths of the enemy. Those weapon makers are to stand in front of us as enemies.

Geopolitics is NOT black and white, it has never been for us and it will never be. This type of short sighted and simplistic view of geopolitics is not only dangerous but if it was followed through you would turn us into another North Korea, cut off from most of the world, from our biggest economic partners and make us beholden to China at the end of the road.

Save you blabber to who will buy it, shame on you underestimating Türkiye, we keep moving faster than you wish.

Don't try to put words into my mouth. I'm not underestimating Türkiye, I am just not overlooking our shortcomings and faults like you do. People like you who turn a blind eye to the things that are wrong and things people in charge fucked up in the last 20 years are the reason why our economy tumbled down so hard, just for one example. Unlike you, I want my country to be actually strong and self-reliant, take steps further on firm ground, rather than pipe dreams that are based on vague platitudes, chest beating and promises.

 

[Zoth]

It does not. DSCA readout only includes F110s for the F-16s, nothing else.

"forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares)"

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

You can remove articles from the packages announced to the congress, but you can't add articles.

The 23billion dollar package does not include the engines for KAAN. Nor does it include the F404 engines for Hurjet.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

They include 48 F110GE129D engines (the last 30 planes we bought in 2010 had F110GE129B engines)
The KAAN jet uses F110GE129E engine which is optimised for twin engine usage and are the same engines on the F15EX jets.

Eurofighter deal will be for the latest version of this plane according to the statement given by Turkish MOD. The latest version is most probably the Tranche 5 which uses the British Leonardo UK designed ECRS MK2 hybrid Aesa radar (with both GaAs and GaN T/R modules)

I guess that was my mistake, i guess i remember wrong that the deal also includes the engines, thanks for the correction.

This correction brings another question though, it seems that USA is not keen to sell us the engines for Hurjet and Kaan unless CAATSA is lifted, what our other options for engines in case USA ends up not selling us the engines?

 

[Saithan]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

 

[boredaf]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

Same type of stuff was also mentioned when F-16 deal was approved and then categorically denied by our officials its almost like some people immediately go into shit stirring mod or something.

 

[Sanchez]

Terms and conditions rarely apply to real world use. We were also supposed to not use our Leo2s in Cyprus and "Southeast" but we did. F-16 sale could only happen if Turkey accepted the NDAA but it was reversed and removed from the bill etc. What are they gonna do, ask for the platforms back? Once you have them in house, stuff they can do is minimal as we've seen in the past decade.
--
Tolga Özbek claims Turkey is interested in second hand EF-2000s from gulf countries to speed up the procurement, probably Saudi or Qatar. But I doubt it, Yaşar Güler did state that they're not interested in second hand jets in the past. Unlike the previously reported UK T1s though, Saudi and Qatar jets are pretty new. Saudis have 48 T2 and 24 T3s and Qatar is still getting the delivery of its 24 T3s, I think only half or so were delivered until now. Maybe they want to get Qatar's yet to be delivered T3s as a stop gap(for the stopgap..)

There's also this to consider. Certifying Turkish munitions and avionics for EF-2000 will take time but it's very good that it's being worked on before a deal is possibly reached.

"...The most important condition for the purchase is the integration of these systems into Eurofighter aircraft. In the last few weeks, teams from Turkish defense companies such as ASELSAN, Roketsan and HAVELSAN have been meeting with Eurofighter teams. One of Turkey's important conditions for integration is that it wants local and national systems to be included in the aircraft."

Eurofighter’da ilk adım ikinci el – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

 

[Saithan]

Well if the configuration is the same I'd welcome 2nd hand EF, but that is only after the purchase deal has been signed with monetary fines to be dished out if they fail to uphold their agreements.

 

[Zafer]

That doesn't make sense since we have been using their weapons against our enemies for decades, including this very year. Or do you think F-16s we've been using are from some other magical country other than the US?

When did you use these weapons against western countries, Greece doesn't even count as we are not even conflicting with them. Enemies who have invaded Türkiye once already you want to count on them to give you weapons to fight whom. Other nations than the west we don't need any more weapons than we are already making ourselves. All lame ass claims you make I won't even bother answering.

 

[Zoth]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

I also saw tweets from good defence industry channels that deny that.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1844809427532272011

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1844849236220768588

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1845017946394898676

Turkey has 2 very strict red lines, they don't accept any conditions on where to fly whatever they buy and the most important part is the integration of our indigenous systems.

Same type of stuff was also mentioned when F-16 deal was approved and then categorically denied by our officials its almost like some people immediately go into shit stirring mod or something.

This is not a rumor, Eurofighter delegation is already in Turkey and in talks with Aselsan, Roketsan, Havelsan or TAI in general, other than Germany all other 3 members on the consortium really want this deal to pass. And it seems that it will pass.


In the other hand, the F16 deal is more complicated, Turkey same as in above example, wants to integrate their indigenous systems into F16-Vipers but USA seems that doesn't like that idea, they also want to build the new F16s in Turkey and also make the modernization in Turkey due to how congested F16 production line is at Lockheed factories.

Tolga Özbek claims Turkey is interested in second hand EF-2000s from gulf countries to speed up the procurement, probably Saudi or Qatar. But I doubt it, Yaşar Güler did state that they're not interested in second hand jets in the past. Unlike the previously reported UK T1s though, Saudi and Qatar jets are pretty new. Saudis have 48 T2 and 24 T3s and Qatar is still getting the delivery of its 24 T3s, I think only half or so were delivered until now. Maybe they want to get Qatar's yet to be delivered T3s as a stop gap(for the stopgap..)

You are right, but getting some second hand Eurofighters will speed up our proccess of intregrating them into our logistic lines, getting EFs now and start flying and maintaining them now will be beneficial for us once we get our T4/T5s in the future.

 

[boredaf]

This is not a rumor, Eurofighter delegation is already in Turkey and in talks with Aselsan, Roketsan, Havelsan or TAI in general, other than Germany all other 3 members on the consortium really want this deal to pass. And it seems that it will pass.

You misunderstood me mate, I was talking about there being red lines about the Eurofighter purchase. Same kind of talk was going around on tweeter when the rumours of F-16 agreement being done were making the rounds.

 

[Zoth]

You misunderstood me mate, I was talking about there being red lines about the Eurofighter purchase. Same kind of talk was going around on tweeter when the rumours of F-16 agreement being done were making the rounds.

Ah yeah, you were talking about the same rumors for red lines, yeah i totally misunderstood that part, my bad.

 

[dBSPL]

IMO, Qatar's EFs are hardly second-hand. They received their first jet in 2022 and as far as I know, full operational capability has not yet been declared. Deliveries have not been completed anyway. In fact, the Qatari Air Force has purchased more aircraft than its capacity, almost like filling its plate from a buffet, due to the comfort provided by vast financial resources, political support recruitment-lobbying and planning mistakes. Qatar's special position is its network of diplomatic relations, not hardpower. Apart from the EF, Qatar also continues to order F-15s and has 36 Rafale aircraft, some of which are in Konya. Very probably, they will also want to buy KAAN in the first available schedule.

The Kuwaiti air force is a bit more reliant on the EF. So even if we take this speculation as true, I don't see Kuwait and KSA as likely, the country he is referring to is probably Qatar.

On the other hand, I think that there is a negotiation package that aims for concrete significant progress in defense cooperation with the EU region, including not only the purchase of 20+20 EFs, but also additional A400Ms, MRTT kits and its domestic retrofit activities. Even though no longer a must for us, we can expect an acceleration in the joint air defense project, taking into account the needs for EU. From unmanned aviation to air defense, we are no longer just buyers; there is significant mutual potential here. Joking but true, if they give the Eurodrone project to Baykar or TAI, they will have a ready-to-go platform within 2 year.

 

[Zapper]

I saw tweets mentioning conditions on EF not to fly it in Aegean/Adalar denizi.

EU economy is currently shit...I heard this clause was being put in by the Germans but it's very likely for the other 3 countries to pressurize Germans to let go just so they can keep the jobs and firms running while getting in some much needed cash

Not to mention, such clauses often don't mean anything. The F-16s for instance were sold to pakistanis to be used for anti-terrorist activities on their western front (kinda dubious since one would need gunships over fighter jets for such ops) but we all know against whom they're primarily intended for

 

[Quasar]

The first flight of the aircraft equipped with mission equipment in the HAVA-SOJ project is coming soon

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1845767292296003994

 

[Kartal1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685394034859147264

What is the chance that we cooperate on the KC-390 with Embraer within this agreement? I think this will be a good option for a future replacement of our C-130s. I just saw that they are also making a tanker version for it.

I remember that in the past there was going to be a cooperation agreement between TUSAS and Embraer, but TUSAS scrapped it as they didn't see the future potential of Embraer at the time. Maybe it is time for a second chance?

 

[Oublious]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685394034859147264

What is the chance that we cooperate on the KC-390 with Embraer within this agreement? I think this will be a good option for a future replacement of our C-130s. I just saw that they are also making a tanker version for it.

I remember that in the past there was going to be a cooperation agreement between TUSAS and Embraer, but TUSAS scrapped it as they didn't see the future potential of Embraer at the time. Maybe it is time for a second chance?

View attachment 71172
View attachment 71173

kicking Israel out of South America.

 

[boredaf]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685394034859147264

What is the chance that we cooperate on the KC-390 with Embraer within this agreement? I think this will be a good option for a future replacement of our C-130s. I just saw that they are also making a tanker version for it.

I remember that in the past there was going to be a cooperation agreement between TUSAS and Embraer, but TUSAS scrapped it as they didn't see the future potential of Embraer at the time. Maybe it is time for a second chance?

View attachment 71172
View attachment 71173

I swear I was thinking about the chances of us being interest in this bird just yesterday. I feel like air force might want to keep the logistics simple and continue on with the LM and Airbus planes, but it looks like a really good alternative.

Imagine if we could get a production line going here, that would bloody amazing.

 

[Sanchez]

With the mentioned C-130J purchase and extra A400 order, I don't think air force would be interested in a similar sized aircraft. We absolutely will need a CN-235 replacement in the next decade however.