Navy Turkish Aircraft Carrier Project

[Sinan]

Calm down. His statement is factually correct. If MMU becomes reality, the plane will eventually developed further. What's wrong with his posting?

Bro, did i say otherwise, please be fair.

 

[Zafer]

False

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. We certainly don't want this forum to be filled with false information, so Sinan does have a point, but what Zafer is saying may turn out to be correct, but it is presented as a fact rather than a speculation (in the first post)



What we know is MMU may start as a 4.5 gen, before entering service as a 5th gen fighter. However it is often touted as being 5+, meaning that there is room for future upgrades.

I wouldn't really call this a family, more of a planned evolution. Also, we don't know much about its autonomous capabilities, who knows, Goksungur and TAI's future fighter drones may be prioritised instead, and MMU may rely mainly on human input, with some AI to aid the pilot.

We don't really know if MMU will have specific variants, but chances are it will be solely focused on air superiority like the F-22, along with the capability to strike ground targets. Though it must be mentioned that by 2030 we should have supersonic drones for the purpose of ground attack.

MMU won't be like the F-35 family, with the A, B & C variants. Neither will it be like the F-18 family, with specialized variants like the Growler (for EW). No, it'll be Turkey's version of the F-22 and its design will be homed in until it's perfect, perhaps being heavily modified decades later to keep up with the latest tech.

MMU won't have a twin seat variant, the Hurjet will likely suffice as an advanced jet trainer. As for a version which can launch from a carrier, who knows at this point. This is a possibility. Truth be told, we are just speculating at this point. But let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

Our drones will fill in niches and each drone will be part of its own family. Meanwhile the MMU is very early in its development, but everything indicates that it will be a platform solely built for one purpose and the entire fleet will likely be upgraded all to the same specification when the time comes.

Yes, like Zafer said, it could become a family. But everything currently indicates that it won't. Just to be clear Zafer isn't the only one who said this, I've seen it on a Turkish YouTube channel.

Now let me just turn everything I said upside down... If MMU is fully autonomous, we could see a "cockpitless" version, which could then be developed into a family of drones. But let me flip the switch once again. Would this even be necassary with the Goksungur and MIUS coming up? Probably not.


The future is going to favour drones. Air superiority fighters will be the last to transition to be unmanned because as of now a pilot is still superior to AI (this could already be changing). But everything else such as attack aircraft, bombers, strike-fighters, EW aircraft will all be drones surprisingly soon. Expect a single drone platform to diversify into many variants. Meanwhile, as mentioned earlier, the only niche which will be dominated by manned aircraft will be air superiority fighters... until AI catches up. This greatly limits the amount of variants we could expect for the MMU "family"


In my opinion this is the most variation I can see:

1. MMU standard variant
2. MMU carrier variant

Continuous upgrades to both, in blocks/phases, different loadouts depending on the mission.

"False information", "false claims", who are you calling a liar when I am saying my opinion.
Yourself are claiming many things, stop lying.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

False

"False information", "false claims", who are you calling a liar when I am saying my opinion.
Yourself are claiming many things, stop lying.

Read again and come up with a rebuttal, will be moving my post to the TFX thread.

You can tell me what's wrong with what I said.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Some source started to prove us about Turkish AC. As It was stated in here, The Turkish AC wont't be less than 40000ton but not bigger than 60000 ton displacement and runway will allow the STOVL aircrafts for take off and landing. A ship in thos dislacement scale will have a length around 280m and launching mechanism will be high likely CATOBAR.

Previous months, Ismail Demir stated that They are evaluating the naval drones and working on it to deploy them on platforms like these. I understand from this statement that Turkey will develop a naval variant of existing drones (less likely) or reveal a new drone (jet powered) which will have strenghtened landing gears and appropriate wing design + proper gears for CATOBAR. Navalized MIUS Block-? will be as a preperation for manned Tf-X Block-? for AC platforms because Navy will certainly have own marine strike wings when AC is revealed. Otherwise, Noone needs a huge investment like this.

 

[Zafer]

runway will allow the STOVL aircrafts for take off and land

What I understand from this is the runway will be able to withstand the heat of a downward exhaust. The AC should be able to support arrested landing of TFX as well. The suggested length of the AC should be able to support 23 TFX planes on the main deck. This size of a carrier can be powered by gas turbine engines and not require nuclear power. Not having nuclear means the catapults will be electromagnetic and not steam. This can allow for easier deployment of directed energy and rail-gun weapons supported by a common electrical system. Let's hope for the best.

 

[azaher77]

Turkey held talks with UK to purchase aircraft carrier

Britain last year offered to help Ankara locally produce vessel after declining to sell one

www.middleeasteye.net

Turkey held talks with #UK to purchase aircraft carrier.

 

[Anthony]

Basically Turkey inquired about buying 'a brand new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier or a decommissioned one, but British officials denied that request.'

But in return British officials 'offered to sell the design of an aircraft carrier and provide technical support during the construction in Turkey'.

Finally according to the article, a Turkish source said 'After the consultations with the British government, Turkey has decided to build its own ship, instead of purchasing it'.

Imo It is not clear whether the British offer to sell the design went through or not, but i'm guessing it has. Especially since Erdogan was quite vocal about building an AC, which means the project is maturing. If this happens, i expect something like what happen with Navantia and TCG Anadolu.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356631880603435016

 

[Yasar_TR]

Basically Turkey inquired about buying 'a brand new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier or a decommissioned one, but British officials denied that request.'

But in return British officials 'offered to sell the design of an aircraft carrier and provide technical support during the construction in Turkey'.

Finally according to the article, a Turkish source said 'After the consultations with the British government, Turkey has decided to build its own ship, instead of purchasing it'.

Imo It is not clear whether the British offer to sell the design went through or not, but i'm guessing it has. Especially since Erdogan was quite vocal about building an AC, which means the project is maturing. If this happens, i expect something like what happen with Navantia and TCG Anadolu.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356631880603435016

If tackled before 2030 it is a waste of money. We need to wait until TFX., economy and support ships are ready before undertaking a program as big as this and channelling funds that are needed for other areas of the defence industry.

 

[Zafer]

If we wait to finish one thing to start another we are losers already.
We need to believe that we will pull off every single feat that we find in our way and synchronize the completion time frames of related development.

As the public we better ask for more rather than less.

 

[Anthony]

Basically Turkey inquired about buying 'a brand new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier or a decommissioned one, but British officials denied that request.'

But in return British officials 'offered to sell the design of an aircraft carrier and provide technical support during the construction in Turkey'.

Finally according to the article, a Turkish source said 'After the consultations with the British government, Turkey has decided to build its own ship, instead of purchasing it'.

Imo It is not clear whether the British offer to sell the design went through or not, but i'm guessing it has. Especially since Erdogan was quite vocal about building an AC, which means the project is maturing. If this happens, i expect something like what happen with Navantia and TCG Anadolu.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356631880603435016

So it seems Turkey is going with a fully local design according to Ragip Soylu....

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356654985954676737

 

[uzaysan]

İf this is true, than we are hundred percent sure we will make tfx. Maybe we can use Mius on it?

And what about escort ships? One ship per year is not enough for an aircraft carrier. And this ships that produced will replace 40 year old ships. So out ship count will remain same. İ only believe if they start production of tf2000 destroyers

 

[the]

What second-hand carrier would Turkey buy? The UK only has two ACs: Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles - which are both fairly modern and would not likely be sold to another country.

 

[Anmdt]

How does it make sense Turkey to decline an offer for assistance to build an aircraft design of HMS Queen Elizabeth variant in Turkey just as it was done with Navantia's Athlas (Juan Carlos I)?
There are some inconsistencies in the source:

In short;
-Turkey wants to purchase an aircraft carrier in last years (could be related to a decommissioned LPH, this has been on news when the ship was transferred to Brazil in 2018 that Turkey was also interested in purchasing it)
Why would Turkey want to purhase an aircraft carrier off the shelf without local production? Why would such a request was made in first place?

-UK declines the request but offers an assistance to build the design. (no chances on purchasing a Queen Elizabeth tonnage wise so request from Turkey is already a misinformation)
Doesn't it make sense for the offer take place as: a request was made with intentions of receiving an asistance to design and build an aircraft carrier? Which was also revealed in earlier times and has been driving point for the projects will be challenging by solely depending on national sources.

-As offer is declined (but Turkey has declined the assistance offer, after UK has declined the purchase request), Turkey decides move on with a national design.
How does this make sense? With which sources, which experience? In the end, an asisstance will be received regardless of the decision.


The news should be consistent within itself, within conjecture of Turkish Navy's procurement choices.


A few minor edits in the text.

 

[CAN_TR]

Main source is Middle East Eye, don't take that too serious.

 

[Glass🚬]

Main source is Middle East Eye, don't take that too serious.

Ragip soylu is historically a accurate source tho.

 

[Zafer]

Buying a ready made ship would save us 8 years of development time. and once we navalized Hürjet we would be good to go.

Buying the QE2 design and getting build assistance for it makes no sense as it is a VTOL only ship that lacks a catapult and an arresting gear, practically the same as our Anadolu LHD.

We need a catobar ship that can launch and receive full size fighters like MMU and we can only make it ourselves. Once we make it it will be second only to US nuclear carriers and possibly to none.

We have the Anadolu experience and with the competence and ingenuity of our engineers we are all set to go.

 

[dBSPL]

Development of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier – a design history​

In this article, we review how the design of the Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carriers evolved. This is a broad subject, worthy of several books but this article provides an overview.

Given their size and limitations, the three Invincible class carriers (CVS) had served the nation very well but by the late 1990s consideration of how to replace them was being discussed. In 1997 the MoD began some outline concept studies for potential future carriers. At this stage, it was accepted they would be considerably bigger than the CVS and most likely operate VSTOL aircraft, although a conventional carrier operating Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet or even a navalised ‘Sea Typhoon’ were briefly considered. Operational analysis suggested that 50 aircraft would be needed to ensure campaign success in medium-intensity scenarios and would probably require a ship displacing at least 38,000 tonnes. Probably for the benefit of the Treasury, the MoD did, however, examine life extension refits and hull-stretching the CVS but unsurprisingly in 1999 concluded that the hulls were too old and lacked the beam to comfortably operate larger future aircraft (the JSF eventually grew to twice the size of the Harrier).

The decisions of the 1998 Defence Review were generally sound and promised the navy would have “two 40,000 ton aircraft carriers, with a complement of up to 50 aircraft and helicopters each. The first will have an in-service date of 2012”. The Future Aircraft Carrier project to build the CVF was formally launched in January 1999. In the light of the capabilities forecast for the QEC by the mid-2020s it is interesting to reflect on how closely they will fulfil the 9 original Key User Requirements (KUR) that were laid down in 1999.

• Interoperability – able to contribute to joint and international operations
• Integration – able to integrate with the joint battlespace and support air group operations with command, control, communications and intelligence functions
• Availability – able to provide one operational ship available at all times
• Deployability – able to deploy worldwide
• Sustainability – able to mount sustained operations
• Aircraft – able to deploy offensive air power without host-nation support
• Survivability – have a high probability of surviving damage
• Flexibility – able to operate the largest possible range of aircraft
• Versatility- able to operate in the widest range of roles.

Design competition​

The assessment phase began at the end of 1999 with initial £5.9M Analysis of Options contracts awarded to two consortia lead by British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) and Thomson-CSF (now Thales). This was followed by the award of a second year-long £30M assessment phase contract to both teams in July 2001.

There was considerable scope for creativity and innovation and the only major stipulations beyond the KURs were that the ship must be built in Britain, carry up to 48 aircraft, be single-hulled and not nuclear powered. Affordability was obviously a major consideration and through-life costs were to be given very high priority. Because the crew is such a major factor in the cost of ownership, a target ships company of around 600 was suggested by the MoD. Both consortia gave this considerable attention and the resulting low manpower requirement is a major achievement.

Three possible configurations were to be examined; conventional catapult-assisted take-off, barrier assisted landing (CATOBAR colloquially referred to as ‘cats and traps’), Short take off, barrier assisted landing (STOBAR) and short take-off, vertical landing (STOVL) options. A fourth option of a ‘hybrid’ CATOBAR and STOVL carrier was briefly considered during 2000 but quickly eliminated as too expensive.

Early studies examining possible flight deck layouts (islands in red, aircraft lifts in blue). The challenges of aircraft carrier design are often grossly underestimated. How to efficiently move aircraft between the hangar and flight deck, safely fuelled and armed, then launch and recover the maximum number of aircraft in a short time in a very confined space. That’s before considering how the island must be configured for navigation, aircraft control, sensors and engine uptakes/downtakes.

By 2001 it was clear the UK would be participating in the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter / F-35) project and the STOBAR option was eliminated. The original specification called for a carrier that could launch 150 fixed-wing sorties every 24-hours, but by late 2002 the figure had been reduced to 110. BAE Systems studies indicated that a CATOBAR carrier would need to be at least 10,000 tonnes larger than a STOVL design.

In September 2002 it was confirmed the design would be an ‘adaptable carrier’ configured with a ski jump for STOVL but capable of being fitted with catapults and arrestor gear if required at some point in the future. The displacement had by now grown to 60,000 tonnes. The First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Michael Boyce stated that RN studies had decisively concluded that a larger ship is cheaper to build in terms of cost per tonne but also has lower maintenance costs. His maxim “air is free, and steel is cheap” was widely quoted and inline with a global trend for larger combatants. Work done in the 1960s for the cancelled CVA-01 carrier design found that increasing tonnage from 40,000 to 50,000 tons increased costs 10%, but aviation capability by 50%. Conversely, the CVF designers concluded in 2001 that a 25% cost reduction for both ships, from £4 billion to £3 billion, would result in a 50% cut in sortie rate. A larger ship also met the criteria for sortie generation, adaptability, comfortable accommodation standards and the ability to embark extra personnel and aircraft in an emergency. The bigger ship is also easier to upgrade in future, a major consideration for a vessel with a planned lifespan of 50 years.

The BAE Systems CVF proposal (2002) in conventional CATOBAR configuration. Note one of the three small aircraft lifts emerging in the middle of the island.

A major factor in any aircraft carrier design is the size and layout of the hangar. With the JSF project not yet mature, the initial design assumed a capacity of 26 aircraft with an approximate wingspan of 12m. (The F-35B does not have folding wings and has a maximum wingspan of 10.7m) The beam of the ship is critical for seakeeping and stability, constraining the size of the hangar. The adaptable carrier also requires a gallery deck immediately below the flight deck and above the hangar, where catapults and arrestor gear could be fitted. The Hangar must interface with the aircraft and weapons lifts in a way that is optimal for aircraft movements. To maximise protection, weapon magazines are located deep in the centre of the ship and together with their associated lifts, are one of the first items that needed to be fixed in the design. The large size of CVF allowed the selection of deck-edge lifts which would be vulnerable to heavy seas if used in small carriers. Deck-edge lifts have several advantages, including a larger capacity than internal lifts.

A 2003 iteration of the Thales Alpha concept configured for VSTOL but with converging runways and a full-width ski jump at the bow.

Alpha – Delta​

In December 2002 the Thales / BMT Alpha concept was selected by the Integrated Project Team (IPT) as the preferred design, beating the proposal from BAE Systems who had been expected to win. The Alpha was seen as more innovative and technically developed than the BAES design. The Alpha employed a simpler main hull shape with large sponsons for a very wide (70m) flight deck. It was less stealthy than the flared hull form of the BAES proposal but this was not a key requirement for CVF.

The twin island design offered many advantages The BAES design featured 3 small aircraft lifts with one emerging oddly in the centre of the novel island structure. It was also fitted with four Sea RAM ILMS defence systems located on each quarter. The Alpha had two large aircraft lifts, a larger hangar and podded propulsion which was seen as an innovation from cruise ships that could be exploited by CVF. The Alpha also had VLS cells for Aster missiles, 3,000 tonnes of armour protection and very high survivability standards.

Unfortunately, by mid-2003 it was clear the Alpha was an unaffordable gold-standard option. A scaled-down, stripped-back, ‘minimum viable technical design’ was then produced, the 55,000-tonne Bravo. The podded propulsion was deleted as by now it was accepted they could not meet naval shock resistance and noise signature standards. The Alpha’s fully automated weapon handling system was replaced with a cheaper and semi-manual highly automated system and self-defence measures were pared back to soft-kill only and ‘fitted for, but not with’ close-in weapons.

Although supposedly saving around £200m in construction costs, it was quickly established by the Defence Procurement Agency Sea Technology Group (STG) that the Bravo did not meet damage control and stability standards. The Charlie variant was then developed with greater subdivision but this reduced internal volume further. The compromises of the Bravo and Charlie were seen to be adding technical risk and complications to construction and the RN successfully argued for a small increase in budget for a slightly larger ship. The result was the 65,000 tonne Delta which was subsequently adopted as the basis for the QEC we know today.

The third assessment phase saw newly formed Carrier Alliance working on refinements but the project now entered a politically turbulent period of delay, indecision and attempts to control costs. In December 2005, funding for the demonstration phase – the detailed design was approved.

Images released in 2005 show how the Delta design had progressed. The flight deck configuration, ski ramps and island design are not far from the final form. It is interesting to note that jet blast deflectors were still considered necessary at this stage but subsequently deleted.

In 2005 BMT announced it has tested 4 different CVF hull form models and assessed them for propulsion efficiency, manoeuvrability, seakeeping and noise signatures. It also investigated skeg length, rudder size, transom stern flaps and bulbous bow designs. The basic Delta concept went through many further iterations and development before the design was considered sufficiently mature by late 2006 for detailed cost estimates to be drawn up prior to ordering long-lead items. Complex funding and industry arguments held up progress considerably but Queen Elizabeth class ships were finally ordered on 25 July 2007 (Although there were further politically-inspired delays after this point).

The ship would be a hybrid of the new Lloyds Naval Ship Rules, maximising use of commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) equipment where possible, while built to defence standards in many critical areas. The CVF design principles were, however, very different to the cheaply-built HMS Ocean, having much higher survivability standards and avoiding over-reliance on commercial equipment that did not stand up well to the rigours of naval service.

The QEC have a large, 16,000m2 flight deck in a flexible layout optimised for best aircraft traffic flow with a single runway and ski ramp. The 4,727m2 (29,000 metre3) hangar has a maximum capacity of about 20 x F-35s or a larger number of helicopters. Without the need for catapults, the QEC can utilise the large gallery deck for aviation offices, aviation stores and an aircrew refreshment bar. Selecting a large ship offers a generous allowance for weight growth margins of up to 16% for additional equipment to be added through the planned 50-year life of the ship. If cats and traps were ever fitted it could add significantly to the displacement, much of the weight would be ballast in the bottom of the ship to counteract the added topweight.

The ship has Integrated Electric Propulsion (IEP), four electric motors drive twin shafts in a conventional arrangement. Two gas turbines and 4 diesels provide the power for propulsion, electronics and the hotel load with a large extra margin of power available for future requirements. Automation has been used wherever possible, especially for weapons and stores handling to reduce manning needs. Modern waste disposal equipment is fitted to make the ship as environmentally friendly as possible. (More details of the QEC design can be found in various related articles here)


The development of such large and complex vessels was never likely to be entirely straightforward but most of the hindrances have been more political than technical. Only after a few years of active service can the ship’s success be fully judged but early indications are good. HMS Queen Elizabeth, effectively a prototype vessel, passed initial sea trails with no major problems (Although perhaps she was lucky to avert a total failure of the propeller shaft thrust block). Despite the many obstacles and external pressures that shaped the project, the designers succeeded in creating a highly innovative aircraft carrier that has a potential for further development. A very good balance has been struck between compromises on capability, initial costs and through-life costs. In a future article, we will look at the delays, the cats and traps detour, passing French involvement and the political background.

21 years after the CVF project began – the real thing.

Development of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier – a design history | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

 

[Zafer]

RN studies had decisively concluded that a larger ship is cheaper to build in terms of cost per tonne but also has lower maintenance costs

global trend for larger combatants

A larger ship also met the criteria for sortie generation, adaptability, comfortable accommodation standards and the ability to embark extra personnel and aircraft in an emergency. The bigger ship is also easier to upgrade in future, a major consideration for a vessel with a planned lifespan of 50 years.

Selecting a large ship offers a generous allowance for weight growth margins of up to 16% for additional equipment to be added through the planned 50-year life of the ship.

The development of such large and complex vessels was never likely to be entirely straightforward but most of the hindrances have been more political than technical.

75.000 tons
300 meters
3 catapults
Heat tolerant deck for interoperability with F35B operator navies (skijump ?)
36 x TFX and 32 Hürjet (catapulted and no wing folding)
Various UAVs in plenty
Aero-derivative gas turbine or custom naval gas turbine propulsion

 

[Combat-Master]

For Hurjet we can take India's Tejas Naval for comparison, they are well-matched in size, weight and engine size - ofcourse the Naval version of Tejas has greater wingspan which is around 60% greater than Hurjet.

I believe navalising Hurjet would be the quickest way- but if a naval version is being developed parallel to training and light attack versions of Hurjet - we may see it within the decade or sooner.

 

[Zafer]

I believe navalising Hurjet would be the quickest way- but if a naval version is being developed parallel to training and light attack versions of Hurjet - we may see it within the decade or sooner.

If our engineers will take 7 years to navalize a plane which already is slated to hit the air in 2023 they must be willing to get hanged one by one at the Taksim Square or optionally the Kızılay Square.