TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Yasar_TR]

the alleged 70-100 km missile that ismail demir mentioned lately could be a derivative of göktug ?

I think you will find that it is actually the last of the Hisar series; Probably, Hisar-U.
These Hisar series air defence missiles we are developing are all based on dual pulse motor Technology where only half of fuel is used in launch then the remainder of fuel is used at terminal phase.
Goktug range are like : AMRAAM and AIM-9X . They have standard solid fuel rocket engines that burn all the fuel after launch to reach Mach 4+ speeds.

 

[Abdelaziz]

I think you will find that it is actually the last of the Hisar series; Probably, Hisar-U.
These Hisar series air defence missiles we are developing are all based on dual pulse motor Technology where only half of fuel is used in launch then the remainder of fuel is used at terminal phase.
Goktug range are like : AMRAAM and AIM-9X . They have standard solid fuel rocket engines that burn all the fuel after launch to reach Mach 4+ speeds.

The second engine in hisars increase their weight significantly .. and hence decrease the range

 

[Yasar_TR]

The second engine in hisars increase their weight significantly .. and hence decrease the range

There is no second engine!
Dual pulse motors have like, two fuel tanks. The engine uses first part of fuel when launched. Then at terminal phase when the missile start losing speed it uses the fuel in the second section to catch up with target at high speed.

 

[TheInsider]

the alleged 70-100 km missile that ismail demir mentioned lately could be a derivative of göktug ?

It can be everything but Göktuğ. But my money is on the cut-down version of the Siper aka Hisar-U. I expect a ~100km Hisar family missile(a resembling geometry and a dual pulse engine) with an RF seeker. Siper should be the same missile with better guidance (Ka-band AESA RF+IIR) and added booster for a longer range. The anti-ballistic missile should be a brand new design with a reaction control system for very high altitude interception.

 

[Yasar_TR]

livik.net

Dit domein kan te koop zijn!

www.livik.net

SOM-J missile will have composite body rather than an aluminium body. This will mean significant reduction in weight and extension of range.
May be as once mentioned by Gurcan Okumus, it will also fit the TFX internal bay too.
Quote:
SOM-J, F-35 iç istasyonu için geliştirilen bir seyir füzesi olmakla beraber hem F-16’da hem Milli Muharip Uçağımızın (MMU) iç istasyonunda kullanılabilecek çok yetenekli önemli bir seyir füzemiz
Unquote.

SAGE Mühimmatlarında Yeni Gelişme - C4 Defence

AA muhabirlerinden Göksel Yıldırım, TÜBİTAK SAGE yürüttüğü çalışmaları, Enstitü Müdürü Gürcan Okumuş ile konuştu.

www.c4defence.com

 

[Hexciter]

President of Defense Industry:

Work has started for the submarine-launched version of the ATMACA Cruise Missile.

There’s a a case of a cruise missile that can be launched from a submarine. A rocket engine can be used firstly. Then the transformation into a cruise missile case….

We are launching our AKYA torpedo, Turkey's first local and national torpedo.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435929406329995269

 

[Hexciter]

……Although Turkey was expelled from the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program in July 2019, the SOM-J Project did not stop and work continued with the aim of conducting the first fire test from a TurAF F-16 by the end of 2021. In addition to the F-16 and TF-X/MMU warplanes, it will also be integrated into Armed Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (SİHA) such as TAI product AKSUNGUR and BAYKAR DEFENSE product AKINCI. In this context, integration studies on AKINCI SİHA started in the first half of 2021. In this way, cruise missiles that can penetrate deep into the enemy line from the SİHAs will be fired and directed to enemy targets by the pilots and payload operators at the Ground Control Station. As one of the world's leading countries in S/UAV technologies, Turkey will also open a new page with the SİHA-Air-Ground Cruise Missile (ALCM) concept.


The SOM-J, which is currently powered by the Improved TR40 Turbojet Engine (it is aimed to localize the engine on the SOM-J in time, and I am waiting for the development of a version of the KTJ-3200 suitable for SOM-J), is approximately 3.9m long and has a high subsonic speed. It weighs 540kg and can reach a range of 275km+ (150nm+). Equipped with a particle-effect armor-piercing warhead weighing approximately 140kg, the SOM-J Missile uses an IIR (Infrared Imager) seeker (with MCT-based cooled MWIR detector). Meanwhile, within the scope of the recently completed product development studies, it is stated that a significant reduction in weight has been achieved thanks to the use of composite material in the SOM-J body. While it is stated that the results of these studies have been approved, we do not currently have clear information about whether the Modified SOM-J design will turn into a product. With its lightweight body and turbojet engine with closed-loop lubrication system, a significant range increase will be possible in the Modified SOM-J compared to the standard version.

SOM-J 5’inci Nesil ASuW Füzesi Atış Testi için Geri Sayım Başladı!

Öncelikli olarak sabit ve hareket halindeki su üstü hedeflere karşı (ASuW) kullanılmak üzere tasarlanan ancak yoğun bir şekilde korunan kara hedeflerine karşı da kullanılabilen 5’inci Nesil SOM-J Füzesinin geliştirme çalışmalarına 18 Şubat 2014’te Savunma Sanayi Başkanlığı (SSB) ile Ana...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[TheInsider]

A new booster engine, a smart capsule(kinda like an empty torpedo that can go to designated coordinates) is in design for Sub-Atmaca. I expect a range increase for Sub-Atmaca like the Atmaca-Land.

 

[Ryder]

……Although Turkey was expelled from the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program in July 2019, the SOM-J Project did not stop and work continued with the aim of conducting the first fire test from a TurAF F-16 by the end of 2021. In addition to the F-16 and TF-X/MMU warplanes, it will also be integrated into Armed Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (SİHA) such as TAI product AKSUNGUR and BAYKAR DEFENSE product AKINCI. In this context, integration studies on AKINCI SİHA started in the first half of 2021. In this way, cruise missiles that can penetrate deep into the enemy line from the SİHAs will be fired and directed to enemy targets by the pilots and payload operators at the Ground Control Station. As one of the world's leading countries in S/UAV technologies, Turkey will also open a new page with the SİHA-Air-Ground Cruise Missile (ALCM) concept.


The SOM-J, which is currently powered by the Improved TR40 Turbojet Engine (it is aimed to localize the engine on the SOM-J in time, and I am waiting for the development of a version of the KTJ-3200 suitable for SOM-J), is approximately 3.9m long and has a high subsonic speed. It weighs 540kg and can reach a range of 275km+ (150nm+). Equipped with a particle-effect armor-piercing warhead weighing approximately 140kg, the SOM-J Missile uses an IIR (Infrared Imager) seeker (with MCT-based cooled MWIR detector). Meanwhile, within the scope of the recently completed product development studies, it is stated that a significant reduction in weight has been achieved thanks to the use of composite material in the SOM-J body. While it is stated that the results of these studies have been approved, we do not currently have clear information about whether the Modified SOM-J design will turn into a product. With its lightweight body and turbojet engine with closed-loop lubrication system, a significant range increase will be possible in the Modified SOM-J compared to the standard version.

SOM-J 5’inci Nesil ASuW Füzesi Atış Testi için Geri Sayım Başladı!

Öncelikli olarak sabit ve hareket halindeki su üstü hedeflere karşı (ASuW) kullanılmak üzere tasarlanan ancak yoğun bir şekilde korunan kara hedeflerine karşı da kullanılabilen 5’inci Nesil SOM-J Füzesinin geliştirme çalışmalarına 18 Şubat 2014’te Savunma Sanayi Başkanlığı (SSB) ile Ana...

www.defenceturkey.com

Honestly Thank God it wasnt cancelled.

I was really wondering what will happen to the SOM J.

It would have been a waste and wasted potential by cancelling it.

 

[Hexciter]

Personally I don’t believe that SOM-J has 540kg launching weight. It has smaller volume, has 85kg lighter warhead and uses lighter composite body structure compared to the SOM missile which is weighting 600 to 660 kg. She must be much lighter.

 

[azaher77]

ops

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435946656982306821

 

[Yasar_TR]

Personally I don’t believe that SOM-J has 540kg launching weight. It has smaller volume, has 85kg lighter warhead and uses lighter composite body structure compared to the SOM missile which is weighting 600 to 660 kg. She must be much lighter.

Addition of composite materials in it’s structure is going to make it significantly lighter than the specified 540kg weight. But this advantage may be used in more fuel and/or explosives to make it go longer and/or be more destructive.
Of course the use of composite materials will mean standard SOM will be lighter too. So the same can be said about SOM A,B and C versions too.
In fact even A2A missiles and Kuzgun range of missiles may benefit from this as well.
UMTAS, L-UMTAS, OMTAS, CİRİT, SOM, HİSAR, BORA and KAPLAN are some examples of missiles that can benefit.

 

[Oublious]

 

[Yasar_TR]

Regarding our BVR air to air missiles and their range; I would have thought it would be feasible to develop an air to air missile with a dual pulse motor? PL15 of China and AIM-260 of US both have dual pulse motors and they have ranges of 300+ km and 200+km respectively.
Due to the dual pulse engine they would have excellent kinetic energy for the terminal phase as well.
We already have 230kg Hisar missiles in hand with dual pulse motors.
Developing an air to air version of these may be in the portfolio of SSM/Tubitak !! Any thoughts ??

 

[Merzifonlu]

Theoretically possible. But Hisar missile family is a heavy missiles. Since it is our first air defence missile project, tolerances are kept wide. If an air-to-air missile is to be recruited from the Hisar missile, Hisar technology must first be refined. Wide tolerances should be narrowed and the missile should be lightened.

 

[Combat-Master]

Regarding our BVR air to air missiles and their range; I would have thought it would be feasible to develop an air to air missile with a dual pulse motor? PL15 of China and AIM-260 of US both have dual pulse motors and they have ranges of 300+ km and 200+km respectively.
Due to the dual pulse engine they would have excellent kinetic energy for the terminal phase as well.
We already have 230kg Hisar missiles in hand with dual pulse motors.
Developing an air to air version of these may be in the portfolio of SSM/Tubitak !! Any thoughts ??

Dual-Pulse may offer longer range engagements and a bump in NEZ. However, it is still not anywhere close to what ramjet propulsion can do. Will we see dual-pulse air to air missile development? Likely for block improvements of Gokdogan missiles.

 

[Trakya_forever]

As I remember Mr. Okumuş mentioned about bigger engine for BVR missile for PHASE II not dual pulse one. Perhaps in time we can see dual pulse engine maybe as PHASE III.

 

[Yasar_TR]

How China is Fast Catching up with the West in the Race for Air-to-Air Missile Superiority

In recent years, China’s technological strides and development of a wide range of air-to-air missiles (AAM) has prompted some nations to integrate these missiles on their fighter fleet, or simply […]

www.raksha-anirveda.com

According to this Indian site, US has chosen the Dual pulse route to be able to produce a missile that will fit in to internal bays of F22 and F35. Also be light enough to be carried by new Hornets and Eagles.
Aim120D achieves it’s long range capability with a dual pulse motor too.
@Combat-Master , you are correct in pointing out that nothing comes close to a ramjet powered air to air missile’s performance with respect to NEZ, speed and agility. But ramjets come with a baggage too. They are cumbersome, larger and often heavier.
So if we are looking for a2a missiles for our TFX internal bays natural development of choice should be dual pulse. Otherwise I fully agree on the superiority of Ramjet.
One thing that has been bugging me about the ramjet development we were informed about is the fact that we do not know if Tubitak is developing a ramjet Gökhan with solid or liquid fuel. Meteor has solid fuel for it’s propulsion.
quote:
“In fact The Meteor possibly outranges all missiles in the world while engaging manoeuvring targets at long-range. A core capability on the Meteor is the world’s first operationalised ramjet motor. At launch, the Meteor is boosted to a speed above Mach 2 by a conventional motor, propelled by fuel from a chamber, which eventually becomes the ramjet combustion chamber when the rocket fuel expends. Above Mach 2, the missile transitions to ramjet operations, maintaining a ‘throttle able’ speed up to Mach 5.”
Unquote.

 

[TheInsider]

There is a big problem with ramjet missiles. Their flight time is a lot longer compared to solid rockets. This means you have to feed updated target coordinates to the missile for a long time until the terminal engagement where the active RF seeker of the missile picks its target. This is one of the reasons why the US choose not to go for Ramjet missiles.

 

[Yasar_TR]

As medium to longer range missiles go, average speed of meteor compared to solid fuelled rockets is slower. (Hence it takes longer to get to it’s target). This is due to it’s throttle able engine coasting until it is in range of target. But the situation changes when it is near the target. That is when it goes faster than all of it’s competitors, nearing 4.5 Mach. But it is heavier and fatter. So not all planes will be happy with it. Especially stealthy ones.
Chinese have used a dual pulse motor in their 300km range PL15 missile. But they are using a solid fuelled ramjet for their 400+ km range PL21. Russians too may have gone the solid fuelled ramjet route in their R77PD/K77M missile.