TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Bozan]

The F-35 is to secure TR against Iran or Russia, or some low threat militias and non-state actors.

There isn't a significant conflict of interest between TR and USA, it is between AKP and USA.

From Erdogan supporting the Muslim brotherhood and painting the US and enemy from his early days is how we got to today. By acting like Iran and helping Iran avoid sanctions.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

TEI is 46% owned by US. There is literally an American on the board of directors. When we make TF35000 and Kaan, it will still be with the blessing of US.

-Turkey should seizure their 46% part , that very dangerous to have them inside , Seizure will be answer for f35 money that are 1.6 billion $ i think that USA dont gave to us .

 

[uçuyorum]

-Turkey should seizure their 46% part , that very dangerous to have them inside , Seizure will be answer for f35 money that are 1.6 billion $ i think that USA dont gave to us .

You are being sentimental. You need to be cold blooded and rational. The orders we get thanks to these partnerships and the manufacturing capabilities we achieved through this is enabling our current projects. If we acted harsh and acted in that manner it would significantly hit the ability of our companies to sustain themselves.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

You are being sentimental. You need to be cold blooded and rational. The orders we get thanks to these partnerships and the manufacturing capabilities we achieved through this is enabling our current projects. If we acted harsh and acted in that manner it would significantly hit the ability of our companies to sustain themselves.

They aslo profit from our low cost production, dont think they like to give us job to produce some parts , If they want let them stop production parts completely , Only Turkiye needs so many parts for its own projects like hurkuş, Gogbey, Kaan, hurjet etj so we can survive .

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Had we have taken delivery of the F35 planes and been using them, we would have been praising them now.
It is only after we were kicked out of the F35 program and started to develop our own plane and defence equipment and when embargoes started to bite, did we learn the real value of indigenisation.

I have to say, that albeit your statement here is mostly correct, we did find out about the short comings and restrictions of using these planes relatively late as people not directly involved in purchasing or evaluating them.
I think the government officials were partly aware of the restrictions hence the insistence for acquiring the source codes which had become a problem that started restraining our relationship already, however, I think the government was betting on us achieving some kind of breakthrough after getting the first batch and examining them up close.
But in summary, most of the negative reports and dissatisfaction with the obligation to ask permission from the US before you could even make them ready for flight came to surface after we were kicked out.

All in all, it would have been a boost to join this plane to our air force, but it would've been an expensive piece of decoration. A leased exhibition peace that you wouldn't be allowed to use independently, practically begging and trying to persuade the American overlords that we're using them according to US guidelines.

We should count our blessings and move on.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I have to say, that albeit your statement here is mostly correct, we did find out about the short comings and restrictions of using these planes relatively late as people not directly involved in purchasing or evaluating them.
I think the government officials were partly aware of the restrictions hence the insistence for acquiring the source codes which had become a problem that started restraining our relationship already, however, I think the government was betting on us achieving some kind of breakthrough after getting the first batch and examining them up close.
But in summary, most of the negative reports and dissatisfaction with the obligation to ask permission from the US before you could even make them ready for flight came to surface after we were kicked out.

All in all, it would have been a boost to join this plane to our air force, but it would've been an expensive piece of decoration. A leased exhibition peace that you wouldn't be allowed to use independently, practically begging and trying to persuade the American overlords that we're using them according to US guidelines.

We should count our blessings and move on.

I agree, but we should at least work to get the 4-5 aircrafts that we paid for, not because it's a game changer, but we can examine and compare its capabilities with KAAN. This would be very good for KAAN project imho.

 

[Khagan1923]

It is hilarious to me that I still see the same discussion and arguments about this plane after almost a decade not to mention the discussion particular to Türkiye-F35.

On one side you have those who love to act as if the F-35 is a trashcan and useless, which of course is not true, and on the other side you have those who act as if you can conquer another country with just 12 of them, which is also of course is not true.

Both sides don't recognize how ridiculous they are being. Especially those who make arguments plainly on their political stance.

First of all you can't focus on the plane and make your arguments based on that.

Context matters.

And the context for us is this. Our Air Force is aging, it is capability wise behind some of its neighbors. And this is the consequence of betting all you have on one horse long-term, i.e. the F-35 project. The first mistake here was not to diversify your options by agreeing to the deal offered to you over a decade ago to become a partner in the Eurofighter project.

The second mistake was going on a dumb , yes dumb you can argue about it as much as you like the signs are clear here, buying spree for the S-400 just to get kicked out of a project you have been a partner in since the start, a project you have pretty much planned the future of your Air Force around, a project which over its lifetime would have netted you Billions of dollars in revenue.

I'm not going to accept the words of the MoD btw you can post it here as often as you want, nor I will I take anyone serious no matter its political stance who says the clear cut lies of " We didn't want it cause it is broke", get out of here, is that why you send pilots to train in the US on your planes? Is that why you didn't just cancel your orders? Why pay the first payment for the first 24 planes?

Things like that just make you stoop low and lose your integrity. Easy as that.
You exchanged your then future plans for the Air Force for a tin can that can't even do its job in the Russian Army, where it its btw connect to a network and should do a job 10x times better it would for you. Yet Ukraine regulary bombs Crimea, regulary attacks the Russian Navy.

Saying things like " We will take it out of storage if we need it" is just hilarious. You will never know when you will need it, by the time you take it out it will be already be too late. They can make any excuses they want, the S-400 is rotting away in a storage warehouse somewhere secret cause the TSK does not want it and was not impressed by it. It was a purely political purchase driven by the Government thinking it could show the US the middle finger and they would not react, it was also a election move. Why are there no exercises being done with it? Is it because 1. the Army does not want it 2. You are scared of the consequences if you use it again and 3. You can't replace the missiles cause any other purchase from Russia will lead to more sanctions which you can't afford anymore.

Having the F-35 right now would not only have alleviated the symptomes our Air Force is suffering but would have added a lot of to the MMU project. I already mentioned the financial aspect. Or have you all forgotten that Türkiye was to be the MRO station for the F-35 fleet in Europe? Do you even understand the things you have lost? Do you understand the know-how our companies could have continued gaining?

The same people in the government talking down the F-35 would have praised it to the heavens if we were still in the project and how good of a job the government did joining the project and procuring the jet and how it will help our industry and bring in billions.


As much as we all hope for MMU to continue fast and without any problems the likelyhood is that it won't enter inventory and service until the 2030s. And even if our engineers did the impossible and made it serial production worthy in 4 years, you are still bound to the US due to the need for its engines.

So tell me what exactly did you gain by getting kicked out of the project? Cause all I hear is how getting kicked out saved us from a broken jet, which we all know especially those who make that argument is plainly a lie.

If it was so broken the Air Force and Government especially could have stopped ordering any new jets after the initial 24 F-35.


Neither is the F-35 a miracle jet. Greece buying 12-24 of them, still waiting for that contract according to our "experts" it was supposed to get signed 3 years ago, won't change anything in the long-term. Wars aren't just fought in the sky, according to that logic Russia should have won its war in a week.

I also don't buys this shit that Biden isn't on purpose sending the notification for the sale to Greece because Türkiye needs to first get its F-16 Block 70 sales. Biden loves Greece, there are other reasons for this, my theory being Greece not having the financial means to actually get the sale through. Under Trump both LM and the then Ambassador to Greece mentioned them first paying of their F-16V modernization before thinking about asking to buy the F-35. In the then Ambassador's words "Beggars can't be chosers".

How about we look at things with neutrals eyes and don't let us get distraced by your fanboying of politicians or political parties.

Not getting the F-35 won't be the end of the world, but getting it would have solved a lot of problems we are currently facing. And what makes this hurt the most is that we lost the F-35 in exchange for a tin can that even fails to do its proper job in the Army where it should especially excel.

And no I won't answer to people quoting government officials to me nor those who talk about conspiracy theories "The planes get switched off with one button". Okay.

Just like with the F-16, Türkiye would have become the country to use those jets the best. And now we need to hope that Germany gains clarity for 5 minutes and doesn't veto our purchase of the Eurofighter.

Cascading problems 5-6 years later for a tin can that we don't even use. Incredible.

Also pointing out mistakes and wrong doings doesn't make you "traitor" as much as some people love to act as if it does, no it actually helps make you stronger.

 

[Strong AI]

 

[GoatsMilk]

It is hilarious to me that I still see the same discussion and arguments about this plane after almost a decade not to mention the discussion particular to Türkiye-F35.

On one side you have those who love to act as if the F-35 is a trashcan and useless, which of course is not true, and on the other side you have those who act as if you can conquer another country with just 12 of them, which is also of course is not true.

Both sides don't recognize how ridiculous they are being. Especially those who make arguments plainly on their political stance.

First of all you can't focus on the plane and make your arguments based on that.

Context matters.

And the context for us is this. Our Air Force is aging, it is capability wise behind some of its neighbors. And this is the consequence of betting all you have on one horse long-term, i.e. the F-35 project. The first mistake here was not to diversify your options by agreeing to the deal offered to you over a decade ago to become a partner in the Eurofighter project.

The second mistake was going on a dumb , yes dumb you can argue about it as much as you like the signs are clear here, buying spree for the S-400 just to get kicked out of a project you have been a partner in since the start, a project you have pretty much planned the future of your Air Force around, a project which over its lifetime would have netted you Billions of dollars in revenue.

I'm not going to accept the words of the MoD btw you can post it here as often as you want, nor I will I take anyone serious no matter its political stance who says the clear cut lies of " We didn't want it cause it is broke", get out of here, is that why you send pilots to train in the US on your planes? Is that why you didn't just cancel your orders? Why pay the first payment for the first 24 planes?

Things like that just make you stoop low and lose your integrity. Easy as that.
You exchanged your then future plans for the Air Force for a tin can that can't even do its job in the Russian Army, where it its btw connect to a network and should do a job 10x times better it would for you. Yet Ukraine regulary bombs Crimea, regulary attacks the Russian Navy.

Saying things like " We will take it out of storage if we need it" is just hilarious. You will never know when you will need it, by the time you take it out it will be already be too late. They can make any excuses they want, the S-400 is rotting away in a storage warehouse somewhere secret cause the TSK does not want it and was not impressed by it. It was a purely political purchase driven by the Government thinking it could show the US the middle finger and they would not react, it was also a election move. Why are there no exercises being done with it? Is it because 1. the Army does not want it 2. You are scared of the consequences if you use it again and 3. You can't replace the missiles cause any other purchase from Russia will lead to more sanctions which you can't afford anymore.

Having the F-35 right now would not only have alleviated the symptomes our Air Force is suffering but would have added a lot of to the MMU project. I already mentioned the financial aspect. Or have you all forgotten that Türkiye was to be the MRO station for the F-35 fleet in Europe? Do you even understand the things you have lost? Do you understand the know-how our companies could have continued gaining?

The same people in the government talking down the F-35 would have praised it to the heavens if we were still in the project and how good of a job the government did joining the project and procuring the jet and how it will help our industry and bring in billions.


As much as we all hope for MMU to continue fast and without any problems the likelyhood is that it won't enter inventory and service until the 2030s. And even if our engineers did the impossible and made it serial production worthy in 4 years, you are still bound to the US due to the need for its engines.

So tell me what exactly did you gain by getting kicked out of the project? Cause all I hear is how getting kicked out saved us from a broken jet, which we all know especially those who make that argument is plainly a lie.

If it was so broken the Air Force and Government especially could have stopped ordering any new jets after the initial 24 F-35.


Neither is the F-35 a miracle jet. Greece buying 12-24 of them, still waiting for that contract according to our "experts" it was supposed to get signed 3 years ago, won't change anything in the long-term. Wars aren't just fought in the sky, according to that logic Russia should have won its war in a week.

I also don't buys this shit that Biden isn't on purpose sending the notification for the sale to Greece because Türkiye needs to first get its F-16 Block 70 sales. Biden loves Greece, there are other reasons for this, my theory being Greece not having the financial means to actually get the sale through. Under Trump both LM and the then Ambassador to Greece mentioned them first paying of their F-16V modernization before thinking about asking to buy the F-35. In the then Ambassador's words "Beggars can't be chosers".

How about we look at things with neutrals eyes and don't let us get distraced by your fanboying of politicians or political parties.

Not getting the F-35 won't be the end of the world, but getting it would have solved a lot of problems we are currently facing. And what makes this hurt the most is that we lost the F-35 in exchange for a tin can that even fails to do its proper job in the Army where it should especially excel.

And no I won't answer to people quoting government officials to me nor those who talk about conspiracy theories "The planes get switched off with one button". Okay.

Just like with the F-16, Türkiye would have become the country to use those jets the best. And now we need to hope that Germany gains clarity for 5 minutes and doesn't veto our purchase of the Eurofighter.

Cascading problems 5-6 years later for a tin can that we don't even use. Incredible.

Also pointing out mistakes and wrong doings doesn't make you "traitor" as much as some people love to act as if it does, no it actually helps make you stronger.

long story short, poor planning and poor politics. It should have been a smooth and a gradual process of moving away from western jets as your own capabilities become available. Instead they did everything to make it as difficult and hard as possible for the nation.

 

[uçuyorum]

How are you gonna effectively use a system you aren't continuously training on, maintaining and testing? How are you gonna know its effectiveness without using it on drills?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I always wondered why the S-400 was bought 4-5 years ago? It's still more or less mothballed and has an inactive status.
The Hisar/Siper project has been going on for quite a while, surely the defense contractors have informed the government when the individual systems will be ready.
We haven't had a decent air defense system for 20-25 years, what difference would the last 4-5 years have made? Who would we have had to defend against in the short term if we had needed the S-400? The PKK and the YPG have neither ballistic missiles nor cruise missiles, the Greeks don't dare to attack Turkey, they don't have the courage, let alone the number of soldiers.
Neither Iran nor Russia would have dared to attack Turkey because of its NATO membership.
The US would not attack Turkey for some flimsy story either, the cost-benefit factor alone would be zero, especially as it would be uncontrollable as a country, even if our country had been bombed into the stone age.
So why did we buy the S-400, why were we kicked out of the F-35 program, why did we deny ourselves these planes, the worst part is that we have already paid for some of them.
To date I have found no logical reason, the government has think tanks and its successes in the arms sector alone show that it is not incapable of foresight. So why?

Even if there is a real reason, which we will never know, even the biggest idiot with halfway common sense would have waited another 2-3 years until the first 5-10 machines were delivered, then you could still have bought the S-400. So why this step?

 

[uçuyorum]

I always wondered why the S-400 was bought 4-5 years ago? It's still more or less mothballed and has an inactive status.
The Hisar/Siper project has been going on for quite a while, surely the defense contractors have informed the government when the individual systems will be ready.
We haven't had a decent air defense system for 20-25 years, what difference would the last 4-5 years have made? Who would we have had to defend against in the short term if we had needed the S-400? The PKK and the YPG have neither ballistic missiles nor cruise missiles, the Greeks don't dare to attack Turkey, they don't have the courage, let alone the number of soldiers.
Neither Iran nor Russia would have dared to attack Turkey because of its NATO membership.
The US would not attack Turkey for some flimsy story either, the cost-benefit factor alone would be zero, especially as it would be uncontrollable as a country, even if our country had been bombed into the stone age.
So why did we buy the S-400, why were we kicked out of the F-35 program, why did we deny ourselves these planes, the worst part is that we have already paid for some of them.
To date I have found no logical reason, the government has think tanks and its successes in the arms sector alone show that it is not incapable of foresight. So why?

I think it was a reaction to a certain major event.

 

[BaburKhan]

I always wondered why the S-400 was bought 4-5 years ago? It's still more or less mothballed and has an inactive status.
The Hisar/Siper project has been going on for quite a while, surely the defense contractors have informed the government when the individual systems will be ready.
We haven't had a decent air defense system for 20-25 years, what difference would the last 4-5 years have made? Who would we have had to defend against in the short term if we had needed the S-400? The PKK and the YPG have neither ballistic missiles nor cruise missiles, the Greeks don't dare to attack Turkey, they don't have the courage, let alone the number of soldiers.
Neither Iran nor Russia would have dared to attack Turkey because of its NATO membership.
The US would not attack Turkey for some flimsy story either, the cost-benefit factor alone would be zero, especially as it would be uncontrollable as a country, even if our country had been bombed into the stone age.
So why did we buy the S-400, why were we kicked out of the F-35 program, why did we deny ourselves these planes, the worst part is that we have already paid for some of them.
To date I have found no logical reason, the government has think tanks and its successes in the arms sector alone show that it is not incapable of foresight. So why?

Even if there is a real reason, which we will never know, even the biggest idiot with halfway common sense would have waited another 2-3 years until the first 5-10 machines were delivered, then you could still have bought the S-400. So why this step?

Siper is going on for sure, until full Operational Capabillity is archieved for Product 1 Variant we will have 2027. In 2027 we have the Siper Product-1 fully Operational, with a Range up to 100 km and no real ATBM Capabillity. Arround 2030's I expect we have fully Capable LR Air Defence with Ranges over 150 km + in Service.

When S-400 is not active, I ask me how Training will be conducted ?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I think it was a reaction to a certain major event.

I don't know, there was nothing big, and honestly the S-400 is not that cool that it would have stopped anything big here, or thwarted any plans of any country or government.
The S-400 is only good if you really have a very decent radar network and connect it to a chain of other air defense systems as a network and even then you are not invincible.
The Ukraine war proved that the S-400 is nothing special Game Changer.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Siper is going on for sure, until full Operational Capabillity is archieved for Product 1 Variant we will have 2027. In 2027 we have the Siper Product-1 fully Operational, with a Range up to 100 km and no real ATBM Capabillity. Arround 2030's I expect we have fully Capable LR Air Defence with Ranges over 150 km + in Service.

When S-400 is not active, I ask me how Training will be conducted ?

Again, who do we have to defend ourselves from in the next 5-10 years that it would have been necessary to act immediately? We could easily have waited until 2030.

We have shot ourselves in the foot, let's hypothetically assume that the S-400 would never have been bought.
Just from the laborious reverse engineering of the F-35 at AVIONIK, AESA RADAR, on-board computer, engine & Co, we could have shortened our own development of the TAI KAAN by 3-4 guaranteed, and even accelerated our own engine by years.
We could even have built a modified clone later with a single jet engine.

 

[uçuyorum]

I don't know, there was nothing big, and honestly the S-400 is not that cool that it would have stopped anything big here, or thwarted any plans of any country or government.
The S-400 is only good if you really have a very decent radar network and connect it to a chain of other air defense systems as a network and even then you are not invincible.
The Ukraine war proved that the S-400 is nothing special.

I think it was a reaction to events that occured in coup attempt basically. F16s pursuing presidents plane etc. But it's speculation.

 

[Zafer]

Again, who do we have to defend ourselves from in the next 5-10 years that it would have been necessary to act immediately? We could easily have waited until 2030.

We have shot ourselves in the foot, let's hypothetically assume that the S-400 would never have been bought.
Just from the laborious reverse engineering of the F-35 at AVIONIK, AESA RADAR, on-board computer, engine & Co, we could have shortened our own development of the TAI KAAN by 3-4 guaranteed, and even accelerated our own engine by years.
We could even have built a modified clone later with a single jet engine.

You wouldn't be allowed to learn anything useful from F35. Buying F35 was shooting ourselves on the foot.

 

[Huelague]

Most countries are already retiring their Phantoms and Tornados, we were going to do so with F35 but here we are

The point is, 50 years old jets (3rd gen) are still in use, beside the fact they are working on 6th gen fighter jets. Means, we can export our 5th+ gen Kaan to a country who is "thinking" on a 6th gen jet.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I think it was a reaction to events that occured in coup attempt basically. F16s pursuing presidents plane etc. But it's speculation.

But that's pointless, the coup was already over.
All the pilots, generals, admirals and soldiers were kicked out, arrested or fled. Not to mention that the security precautions for the use of F-16 aircraft were certainly tightened considerably afterwards.
Each of these Turkish F-16 aircraft has had a Turkish on-board computer with its own national-level friend or foe recognition for years. No one can tell me that it is not possible to disable the weapon systems remotely with remote maintenance software in the form of a remote system in the event of telltale signs.

 

[Huelague]

You wouldn't be allowed to learn anything useful from F35. Buying F35 was shooting ourselves on the foot.

We leared much of F-35 program.