TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Radonsider]

İngilizcem yetmediği için Türkçe yazıyorum sonra çevirebilirsem çeviririm.

Baykar'ın genel olarak daha ucuz üretim yöntemlerini seçtiği ortada gibi. Zaten öyle yapmasalar hem ucuz yapamazlar hemde istedikleri adetlerde üretemezler kolay kolay. Kızılelma daha prototip aşamasında olduğu için bir şey demek doğru olmaz ama büyük ihtimalle o da insanlı hava araçlarına göre çok daha fazla hata payıyla üretilecek ki maliyeti düşük olsun. Akıncı ve TB2 de hala daha o "mükemmel" üretim yok gibi. MQ-1 ve MQ-9'la karşılaştırınca aradaki fark bariz belli oluyor. Ama işte onlarda deli fiyatlara mal oluyorlar. Bence Baykar'ın yaptığı doğru olan gibi. kaliteye çok kasarlarsa süreçler çok uzar. Kızılelma'nın RCS konusuna gelince de dediğim gibi bence daha üstünde ciddi RCS azaltma çalışmaları yapılmamıştır, en fazla bilgisayar üzerinde simulasyonlar. Kızılelma üretime yaklaştıkça RCS düşürme işleri ciddiye biner zaten o zaman daha ince işler yapılır. Ama yine dediğim gibi bence RCS yi çok düşürmeye kasarlarsa maliyetleri aşırı yükseltirler. Bu iha 0.1- 0.05 m² RCS ye sahip olsa efsane olur zaten. İnsanlı bi araç gibi aşırı kasmaya gerek yok RCS yi. Baykar istese MQ-28 gibi bir üretimde yapabilir ama yani maliyeti uçururlar. Kötüleme amaçlı söylemiyorum bu arada yanlış anlaşılmasın.

It seems clear that Baykar generally chooses cheaper production methods. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't be able to make it cheap and they wouldn't be able to produce it in the quantities they want. Since the Red Apple is still in the prototype stage, it would not be right to say anything, but it will most likely be produced with a much higher margin of error than manned aircraft, so that the cost will be lower. Akıncı and TB2 still do not seem to have that "perfect" production. Compared to the MQ-1 and MQ-9, the difference is obvious. But here they come at crazy prices. I think what Baykar does is like the right thing. If they are too harsh on quality, the processes take too long. As I said about Kızılelma's RCS, I don't think serious RCS reduction studies have been done on it, mostly simulations on the computer. As Red Apple gets closer to production, RCS downgrades get serious, then finer work is done. But again, as I said, I think if they try to reduce the RCS too much, they will increase the costs excessively. This drone would be legendary if it had 0.1-0.05 m² RCS. There is no need to overstretch the RCS like a manned vehicle. Baykar can produce something like the MQ-28 if he wants, but they will increase the cost. View attachment 51409

View attachment 51408

And what I am trying to tell is that they cannot do it for Kızılelma, stealth is something else, RCS is a dependant stat, it needs good production quality or else it could create fluctuations or spikes in certain areas, which would mean it could hamper operational usage,

it seems like they aim more stealth than 0.1 region, at least given that they use serrations etc which other 0.1-1 (frontal) vehicles lack.

Tbh using the given stats for S-400 X band radar, I would say something lower than or in the region of 0.05 would be OK for us.

I completely agree on the part where you said Akıncı and TB-2 have worse quality compared to MQ-9, MQ-1 or TAI products, but keep in mind that they are not intended for stealth purposes, no one really wants spikes in certain regions because of misalignment or rough surfaces.

Keep in mind that Kızılelma-B will probably the premier BVR combat aircraft for TurAF until Typhoon T4 or TF-X arrives just because of stealth



And yes, this is just the first prototype, the build quality will improve and I hope them to improve it further than TB-2 or Akıncı levels.

And also, it seems to me that Kızılelma uses spars and bulkheads, just by the skin I think they appear

 

[Bogeyman]

A Novel 3-D Printed Air-Cooled Fuel Cooler Heat Exchanger for Aviation Industry​

Unmanned aerial vehicles are expected to complete their missions even in adverse weather conditions. Overheating in the engine area may occur, particularly at high speeds due to using the full engine throttle. Another design factor that affects endurance duration and maximum takeoff weight is the weight of the unmanned aerial vehicle heat exchanger. In this paper, a new type of air-cooled fuel cooler heat exchanger is proposed to reduce the total weight of the heat exchanger by increasing cooling performance through the design flexibility offered by additive manufacturing. The printed circuit heat exchanger has a circular cross-section to prevent dead bends in the heat transfer surfaces and feed coolant air directly onto the fins and circulation pipes. Twisted fins and piping structure were adjusted so they could be produced without any support, generate turbulence, and reduce total weight. The fluid flow and heat transfer characteristics of novel and conventional heat exchangers were simulated in 3-D. The flow physics of both exchangers were studied to determine how the new design enhances heat transfer. Numerical results showed that the new heat exchanger has 55.6% more cooling capacity than the conventional one. The heat exchanger weight was decreased from 774g to 263g.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364314235_A_Novel_3-D_Printed_Air-Cooled_Fuel_Cooler_Heat_Exchanger_for_Aviation_Industry

NOTE: One of the project authors works in TAI.

One of the authors working on the fix project said that the project is old, not new. However, I said it should stay here to confirm the ability at hand.

 

[MADDOG]

Whilst I do agree with most of the comments, I would like to bring up something. KE's production quality is currently better than that of Akinci and the TB-2. It will surely improve over time as well. The issue with the radome is evident, but you could nitpick certain production mistakes with top aircraft such as the F-22 if you look that closely. Regarding the rivets, they seem relatively flat and if they're painted over I believe they won't become much of a problem. The Rafale has some respectable RCS values. KE in terms of production quality is on par with that aircraft (not counting the production errors). KE also comes with serrations, a low RCS fuselage and HUGE usage of carbon composites. The number of rivets and drilled holes are actually relatively minor as well. You've got this big composite thing flying around that has been designed with stealth in mind. I certainly believe it has got a number of tricks up its sleeve. Don't write the KE off just yet

 

[Nutuk]

It seems clear that Baykar generally chooses cheaper production methods. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't be able to make it cheap and they wouldn't be able to produce it in the quantities they want. Since the Red Apple is still in the prototype stage, it would not be right to say anything, but it will most likely be produced with a much higher margin of error than manned aircraft, so that the cost will be lower. Akıncı and TB2 still do not seem to have that "perfect" production. Compared to the MQ-1 and MQ-9, the difference is obvious. But here they come at crazy prices. I think what Baykar does is like the right thing. If they are too harsh on quality, the processes take too long. As I said about Kızılelma's RCS, I don't think serious RCS reduction studies have been done on it, mostly simulations on the computer. As Red Apple gets closer to production, RCS downgrades get serious, then finer work is done. But again, as I said, I think if they try to reduce the RCS too much, they will increase the costs excessively. This drone would be legendary if it had 0.1-0.05 m² RCS. There is no need to overstretch the RCS like a manned vehicle. Baykar can produce something like the MQ-28 if he wants, but they will increase the cost.

Well with "it seems" you are already declaring your opinion and not something factual, I guess all the countries ordering the TB2 are a bit in disagreement with you. Quality does not show on photo's, it shows herself on the battlefield. On picture the French Neuron looks quite impressive and quality but what is quality if it remains off battlefield?

Secondly drones are still in evolution form compared to the long years that jet fighters already have behind and drones are catching up in dazzling speed.

The MQ-1 and MQ-9 looks indeed nice and are probably also nice drones, but can you tell me in which war they have shined?

 

[Bogeyman]

A Novel 3-D Printed Air-Cooled Fuel Cooler Heat Exchanger for Aviation Industry​

Unmanned aerial vehicles are expected to complete their missions even in adverse weather conditions. Overheating in the engine area may occur, particularly at high speeds due to using the full engine throttle. Another design factor that affects endurance duration and maximum takeoff weight is the weight of the unmanned aerial vehicle heat exchanger. In this paper, a new type of air-cooled fuel cooler heat exchanger is proposed to reduce the total weight of the heat exchanger by increasing cooling performance through the design flexibility offered by additive manufacturing. The printed circuit heat exchanger has a circular cross-section to prevent dead bends in the heat transfer surfaces and feed coolant air directly onto the fins and circulation pipes. Twisted fins and piping structure were adjusted so they could be produced without any support, generate turbulence, and reduce total weight. The fluid flow and heat transfer characteristics of novel and conventional heat exchangers were simulated in 3-D. The flow physics of both exchangers were studied to determine how the new design enhances heat transfer. Numerical results showed that the new heat exchanger has 55.6% more cooling capacity than the conventional one. The heat exchanger weight was decreased from 774g to 263g.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364314235_A_Novel_3-D_Printed_Air-Cooled_Fuel_Cooler_Heat_Exchanger_for_Aviation_Industry

NOTE: One of the project authors works in TAI.

One of the authors working on the fix project said that the project is old, not new. However, I said it should stay here to confirm the ability at hand.

I heard from another friend that the project will be used in nice places. So there is still hope for TISU UCAV.

 

[Combat-Master]

I heard from another friend that the project will be used in nice places. So there is still hope for TISU UCAV.

Is this the same friend that said some naughty things about the Hurjet which turned out to be not true ?

 

[Bogeyman]

Is this the same friend that said some naughty things about the Hurjet which turned out to be not true ?

No, this is a different friend. 1 of them was the author of the project. The other was his close friend.

By the way, it is said that Hürjet's engines will still arrive in January.

 

[Holikarbon]

Heh?

I thought the shell was aluminum alloy but it was composite

 

[MADDOG]

I thought the shell was aluminum alloy but it was composite

Yep. Not counting her insides, the entire fuselage is composite.

 

[what]

Offtopic Posts have been deleted. If you want to discuss Greek UAV programs, the Greek subforum is your friend.

 

[Hasanrize]

I was relieved when the Anka-3 and TAI stealth fighter news came out . Baykar KE fast development is really concerning and unrealistic . TAI will beat and destroy Baykar if the airforce made a competition . I would choose a company with aviation experience than a company with drone experience for the stealth fighter .

TAI fighter or new projects will be based on the experience of a real stealth Tf-x production and design process while Baykar KE is just Akinci just in other form .

Look how precise the Tf-x prototype

And then the KE , let's not mention the actuator and how they covered it

Oğuz Ergin, who have a lot of student working in defense industries, made a video about this; you can look for it.

TUSAŞ is a state-owned company that suffers from some chronic issues just like others. Those are mostly related to efficiency and poor management of human resources. That was another reason Baykar is much faster, also more innovative.

TAI products are higher-end compared to Baykar, but if we tried to use Anka instead of TB-2, we would be bankrupted by now. Imagine all those inevitable TB-2 losses were actually Anka's losses. It is not just more expensive, also production speed is much slower.

War in Ukraine also showed us that quality is not always better than quantity.

 

[Ryder]

Oğuz Ergin, who have a lot of student working in defense industries, made a video about this; you can look for it.

TUSAŞ is a state-owned company that suffers from some chronic issues just like others. Those are mostly related to efficiency and poor management of human resources. That was another reason Baykar is much faster, also more innovative.

TAI products are higher-end compared to Baykar, but if we tried to use Anka instead of TB-2, we would be bankrupted by now. Imagine all those inevitable TB-2 losses were actually Anka's losses. It is not just more expensive, also production speed is much slower.

War in Ukraine also showed us that quality is not always better than quantity.

Thats what people forget.

Quality wins battles while quantity wins wars.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Oğuz Ergin, who have a lot of student working in defense industries, made a video about this; you can look for it.

TUSAŞ is a state-owned company that suffers from some chronic issues just like others. Those are mostly related to efficiency and poor management of human resources. That was another reason Baykar is much faster, also more innovative.

TAI products are higher-end compared to Baykar, but if we tried to use Anka instead of TB-2, we would be bankrupted by now. Imagine all those inevitable TB-2 losses were actually Anka's losses. It is not just more expensive, also production speed is much slower.

War in Ukraine also showed us that quality is not always better than quantity.

What's the price difference between ANKA and TB2?

 

[Era_shield]

Even Boeing, who have much more money and experience, have significant flaws in their first prototype (right) compared to subsequent prototype (left):

People who are expecting KE's first prototype to be perfect don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Ryder]

MIUS KE sounds so good it gives me chills.

I think I will make it my ringtone.

 

[Ryder]

Even Boeing, who have much more money and experience, have significant flaws in their first prototype (right) compared to subsequent prototype (left):

View attachment 51418

People who are expecting KE's first prototype to be perfect don't know what they're talking about.

Double standards if it was Lockheed Martin or Boeing everybody gives it a pass.

But since its Baykar which is by standards a new company people are willing to berate or write it off.

Many dumbass opposition idiots in Turkiye are pointing this out by saying the Damat is cheating people so called "Ataturk supporters" who are not really Ataturk supporters in my opinion.

If Ataturk was alive and was able to witness these drones flying he would be having tears in his eyes.

 

[AzeriTank]

You also forgot one thing, you need titanium to make structure and cover it with composite like US and TAI does, but Turkey doesnt have Titanium resources and we all know that in case of war, those ships or resources will be the first targets. I feel like with KE Turkey is really want to make spmething that it can mass produce with its own resources. As Turkey wants to go to Syria and fight Greek, this will be the most important. On the other hand, with those Ukranian engines, they are most probably designed to shoot first, without killing itself with high angle turns all the time.
Also, its not secret that Tai and KE will share their technolofy(mostly Tai to Baykar) as government look at it the guarantee of the country

 

[Hexciter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603732725034356740

 

[Boykaz]

ANKA ile TB2 arasındaki fiyat farkı nedir?

Tusaş Anka = 20-25 million usd
Baykar bayraktar TB2= 5-6 million usd

 

[Agha Sher]

Tusaş Anka = 20-25 million usd
Baykar bayraktar TB2= 5-6 million usd

Latest deals indicate $17 million usd per TB2 (however, this likely includes training, technical support and ammunition)

Those days of TB2 selling for $6 million are long gone