TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[kenny]

KE::Composite
TF-X : Metal alloy

Actually plastic

 

[Rodeo]

I was relieved when the Anka-3 and TAI stealth fighter news came out . Baykar KE fast development is really concerning and unrealistic . TAI will beat and destroy Baykar if the airforce made a competition . I would choose a company with aviation experience than a company with drone experience for the stealth fighter .

TAI fighter or new projects will be based on the experience of a real stealth Tf-x production and design process while Baykar KE is just Akinci just in other form .

Look how precise the Tf-x prototype

And then the KE , let's not mention the actuator and how they covered it

You have a point. I am also concerned with the sloppily built prototypes of Baykar. And those actuators are an eyesore. But they're a very young company and growing like crazy. They should eventually mature their manufacturing quality. They seem to prioritize speed of development over everything else. Much like Elon Musk's companies. We should wait a few years to see if they're gonna catch up with TAI in terms of manufacturing capabilities.

But you're right. I trust TAI's quality and methodology more than BAYKAR's. The latter is a private company. They have a different mindset and operation.

 

[Radko]

We shouldn't expect a high quality production on Kızılelma. And also a very low RCS seems impossible. Kızılelma probably will not have a RAM on it too. 0.1-0.05m² RCS would be pretty good for a platform like this cheap. Baykar should make it as cheapest as possible by lowering overall build quality and sacrificing RCS.

This doesn't seem viable
Even the TB-2 has really good production quality, Baykar SHOULD NOT comprise it's stealth

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Your personal "expert" opinions about TAI and Baykar don't change anything.
Both are working hard for this country.

 

[Trakya_forever]

In Baykar We Trust.

 

[AWP]

We shouldn't expect a high quality production on Kızılelma. And also a very low RCS seems impossible. Kızılelma probably will not have a RAM on it too. 0.1-0.05m² RCS would be pretty good for a platform like this cheap. Baykar should make it as cheapest as possible by lowering overall build quality and sacrificing RCS.

I disagree with you . private companies like Baykar should have a good production quality so they can compete in any where in fact it's a must since they made world stage with tb-2 .

In Turkey situation where it's hard to buy new air platforms , the domestic alternative must be on a high level since this UAV platforms will be the backbone of the Turkish airforce power .

I like Baykar and I wish them the best , but this KE at the moment is a total BS .

 

[MADDOG]

KE::Composite
TF-X : Metal alloy

Heh?

 

[MADDOG]

We shouldn't expect a high quality production on Kızılelma. And also a very low RCS seems impossible. Kızılelma probably will not have a RAM on it too. 0.1-0.05m² RCS would be pretty good for a platform like this cheap. Baykar should make it as cheapest as possible by lowering overall build quality and sacrificing RCS.

I've heard that the aircraft is coated with RAM but take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Radko]

Honestly I don't even think aircraft had "serious" RCS simulations and tests. Probably it will not see a RCS test chamber at all. Maybe when Tusaş's one starts servicing buuut I doubt.

You are not going to design an aircraft without RCS Sims, even 80s aircraft had been tested with those simulations, albeit simpler


You really underestimate Baykar tbh

 

[Zafer]

What is the point of commenting on an unfinished work. Baykar will work on perfecting the KE in a continuous manner. Every iteration will be a better product until it meets the requirement of the day. It only needs to be able to beat the enemy and not necessarily be far better than but only be ahead of them. This way the product will be available as early as possible.

 

[Baris]

Isn't one of the main advantages of Kızılelma is that it is meant to be expendable and cheaper (1/9th of a traditional fighter jet) compared to 5th gen fighters but still being the leading 1st gen jet drone fighter ? Why are we comparing it with something like the TF-X ?
Compare it with any other drone, the features it will have surpass every other drone out there.

 

[Siper>MMU]

You are not going to design an aircraft without RCS Sims, even 80s aircraft had been tested with those simulations, albeit simpler


You really underestimate Baykar tbh

Kızılelma came pretty quickly. I think they focused primarily on making this thing fly first. Later they can focus on RCS improvements. It's very easy to modify an unmanned aircraft.

 

[Radko]

Kızılelma came pretty quickly. I think they focused primarily on making this thing fly first. Later they can focus on RCS improvements. It's very easy to modify an unmanned aircraft.

They would still need to run RCS simulations for the overall design.


We can easily see that they will replace parts in the future, mainly GNSS thing and antennas, production quality, and actuators.
Overall design will stay the same

 

[Zafer]

"There are three basic types of UCAVs. The first class are “expendables”, that are launched by fighter planes or bombers in the air. They are small drones, cheap to manufacture, and can carry weapons, jammers, or sensors. These little planes never return to base. The second class are called "attritables," meaning that they can be sacrificed but not in great number. They can cost a few million dollars each, carry weapons, jammers, or ISR [intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] systems, and land back at home base if they survive the fight. The final class are called “survivables” and they can cost up to $50 million each. They perform many of the same missions as manned fighter planes and are expected to return to base. Boeing recently replaced an F-16 pilot with computers in the cockpit, making the fighter plane autonomous. At about $20 million each, they are survivables."

Unmanned fighter planes (UCAVs) and the kill web - Military Embedded Systems

WARFARE EVOLUTION BLOG. Unmanned autonomous fighter planes are the most interesting elements in the advanced kill web, even more intriguing than the manned super-stealthy 6G fighter planes we discussed in previous articles. UCAVs (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles) have the potential to render our...

militaryembedded.com

 

[Deliorman]

Yeah you have some imperfections on the body of KE but let's not forget that this is only the first prototype. All they will use this thing for is testing and trying new stuff so do you even need it to look perfect?

By the end of this journey I am sure that Baykar will perfect the design yet how useful this drone will be in real combat situations is something that I can't answer. Hopefully Turkish strategists will find ways to use this beauties in the best way possible.

 

[Radko]

Well Akıncı still has some gaps around panels. It doesn't mean it's built poorly but it is obvious that they are trying to lower the costs. Baykar uses a "softer and more flexible" composite it seems. They also don't use any steel framing at all. A fully composite body has more flex than a steel/aluminum strenghtened one. MQ-9 however looks more "rigid" but it has VERY high cost compared to Akıncı. What is Baykar doing is not wrong thats just the way they do it. https://www.gannett-cdn.com/authori...3e8-1603-6b00-e053-0100007fa974-49203a99.jpeg View attachment 51407

After some usage you can also see defects on F-35 or F-22, indeed Baykar does the job for a lesser quality compared to TAI or LM, but compromising stealth for price is not something good

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603415587899772928

TÜBİTAK SAGE has officially announced the Doğan missile family developed for KIZILELMA.

 

[AWP]

After some usage you can also see defects on F-35 or F-22, indeed Baykar does the job for a lesser quality compared to TAI or LM, but compromising stealth for price is not something good

Exactly

We can't use the poor quality concept of Akinci on KE . Unlike Akinci , KE is a stealth drone and any small dent or defect or gap will compromise its stealthy feature .

 

[Siper>MMU]

GökDOĞAN and BozDOĞAN

 

[Radko]

İngilizcem yetmediği için Türkçe yazıyorum sonra çevirebilirsem çeviririm.

Baykar'ın genel olarak daha ucuz üretim yöntemlerini seçtiği ortada gibi. Zaten öyle yapmasalar hem ucuz yapamazlar hemde istedikleri adetlerde üretemezler kolay kolay. Kızılelma daha prototip aşamasında olduğu için bir şey demek doğru olmaz ama büyük ihtimalle o da insanlı hava araçlarına göre çok daha fazla hata payıyla üretilecek ki maliyeti düşük olsun. Akıncı ve TB2 de hala daha o "mükemmel" üretim yok gibi. MQ-1 ve MQ-9'la karşılaştırınca aradaki fark bariz belli oluyor. Ama işte onlarda deli fiyatlara mal oluyorlar. Bence Baykar'ın yaptığı doğru olan gibi. kaliteye çok kasarlarsa süreçler çok uzar. Kızılelma'nın RCS konusuna gelince de dediğim gibi bence daha üstünde ciddi RCS azaltma çalışmaları yapılmamıştır, en fazla bilgisayar üzerinde simulasyonlar. Kızılelma üretime yaklaştıkça RCS düşürme işleri ciddiye biner zaten o zaman daha ince işler yapılır. Ama yine dediğim gibi bence RCS yi çok düşürmeye kasarlarsa maliyetleri aşırı yükseltirler. Bu iha 0.1- 0.05 m² RCS ye sahip olsa efsane olur zaten. İnsanlı bi araç gibi aşırı kasmaya gerek yok RCS yi. Baykar istese MQ-28 gibi bir üretimde yapabilir ama yani maliyeti uçururlar. Kötüleme amaçlı söylemiyorum bu arada yanlış anlaşılmasın.

It seems clear that Baykar generally chooses cheaper production methods. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't be able to make it cheap and they wouldn't be able to produce it in the quantities they want. Since the Red Apple is still in the prototype stage, it would not be right to say anything, but it will most likely be produced with a much higher margin of error than manned aircraft, so that the cost will be lower. Akıncı and TB2 still do not seem to have that "perfect" production. Compared to the MQ-1 and MQ-9, the difference is obvious. But here they come at crazy prices. I think what Baykar does is like the right thing. If they are too harsh on quality, the processes take too long. As I said about Kızılelma's RCS, I don't think serious RCS reduction studies have been done on it, mostly simulations on the computer. As Red Apple gets closer to production, RCS downgrades get serious, then finer work is done. But again, as I said, I think if they try to reduce the RCS too much, they will increase the costs excessively. This drone would be legendary if it had 0.1-0.05 m² RCS. There is no need to overstretch the RCS like a manned vehicle. Baykar can produce something like the MQ-28 if he wants, but they will increase the cost. View attachment 51409

View attachment 51408

And what I am trying to tell is that they cannot do it for Kızılelma, stealth is something else, RCS is a dependant stat, it needs good production quality or else it could create fluctuations or spikes in certain areas, which would mean it could hamper operational usage,

it seems like they aim more stealth than 0.1 region, at least given that they use serrations etc which other 0.1-1 (frontal) vehicles lack.

Tbh using the given stats for S-400 X band radar, I would say something lower than or in the region of 0.05 would be OK for us.

I completely agree on the part where you said Akıncı and TB-2 have worse quality compared to MQ-9, MQ-1 or TAI products, but keep in mind that they are not intended for stealth purposes, no one really wants spikes in certain regions because of misalignment or rough surfaces.

Keep in mind that Kızılelma-B will probably the premier BVR combat aircraft for TurAF until Typhoon T4 or TF-X arrives just because of stealth



And yes, this is just the first prototype, the build quality will improve and I hope them to improve it further than TB-2 or Akıncı levels.

And also, it seems to me that Kızılelma uses spars and bulkheads, just by the skin I think they appear