TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Hasanrize]

Returning to the topic , i would like to know if the KizilElma will be exported ? Also the Price of the drone . Thanks

If there is a customer, it will be for sure. Given even TUSAŞ is looking for partners for TF-X, Kızılelma will surely be open for sale.

 

[Latebra Factum]

If there is a customer, it will be for sure. Given even TUSAŞ is looking for partners for TF-X, Kızılelma will surely be open for sale.

because i thought it would be strictly for internal usage , but it's very nice to see a cost-effective 5th gen UCAV is for sale

 

[Gary]

Power generation IS NOT related to engine,
Engine power does limit how much power you can generate but a 6000lbf engine is already enough to power 90kVA generator.

I think it's very clear that the engine thrust rating affects the performance of many electornics system on board a modern fighter jet. The very reason behind the decision to re-engine the F-35 is power.

3. System cooling requirements already exceed F135 design specifications.

Like electricity, the demand for subsystem cooling is measured in kilowatts. The F135 was designed to handle a 15 kilowatts cooling demand, but that requirement has already doubled to an estimated 30 kilowatts. Cooling air is generated primarily by pulling bleed air from the engine and running it through heat exchangers. The F135 meets the 30 kilowatts demand by pulling more bleed air from the engine, which further reduces thrust. By the time Block 4 version of the F-35 is fully fielded in 2028, aircraft sub-systems will need a minimum of 47 kilowatts of cooling, and the amount required to meet follow-on capability demands range as high as 60 kilowatts. The F-35’s power plant will need to generate twice the cooling the F135 engine delivers.

5. The F135 engine will not meet future electrical power requirements.

Like the demands for thrust, range and cooling, the voltage generation specification that was designed into the JSF was wholly sufficient for the subsystems envisioned in 2001. However, the performance and tactical effective range of subsystems like a new APG-85 radar [PDF] and enhanced electronic warfare systems that will come with the F-35 Block 4 will require more electrical power. Add upgrades that are on the horizon like directed energy weapons, and you start hitting voltage stops. The F-35 Joint Program Office has already identified this challenge and signaled the need for an engine that can produce more kilowatts of power.

9 reasons why the F-35 needs a new engine - Breaking Defense

As the military decides between upgrading what it’s got and starting fresh, the Heritage Foundation’s John “JV” Venable argues the more expensive option now will save in the long run.

breakingdefense.com

And this is from a fighter with 180kN of thrust
The F-15EX has 2x130kN F110 engine, that means more electrical power generation for onboard a very powerful electronics like the APG-82v1 or the EPAWSS and many more.

From the engine alone you know that advanced model F-15 will be able to power more potential than a 40kN powered aircraft like the Kizilelma B, not to mention its flight characteristics, like how fast/high could it go, its energy conservation in a dogfight etc.

F-22's avionics are now probably worse than new EF's and definitely worse than F-35s, and probably even F-15EX
Also, sentences like "Like AWACS" are pure bs and propaganda, same with Chinese and Russian claims of similar kind

Really ? and this is from 2007 (Aviation week). None of the European AESA'ed airplane can do this. The Jamming power of the APG-81 (in which the APG-77v1 are very similar with) has the same amount of jamming power than 3x F-16 combined. To this day Eurocanards still uses external jamming pod like the Arexis, while in the APG-77/77v1 and APG-81 it is embedded in the radar itself.

and yes both the F-22 and F-35 operate with the highest rated engine ever put on a fighter jet (f119 and F135).

look more here

How does the F-15C's APG-63(V)3 stack up to the APG-81 and APG-77(V)1? Is it the most capable radar on a fighter aircraft in the world li...

Answer (1 of 2): Thank you for A2A. The APG-63(v)3 (F-15C) and APG-82 (F-15E) are 3rd gen. AESA radars and should be having similar number of T/R modules as APG-77. A direct comparison is difficult since we still don’t have any picture of APG-63v3’s TRMs. The APG-63(v)3 and especially APG-82 ar...

www.quora.com

 

[Latebra Factum]

Regarding that turkey is part of NATO , do you guys think that the KizilElma and the TAI TF-X would benefit the MIDS-JTRS Link -16 for secure and fast comms ?

 

[Radonsider]

I think it's very clear that the engine thrust rating affects the performance of many electornics system on board a modern fighter jet. The very reason behind the decision to re-engine the F-35 is power.

3. System cooling requirements already exceed F135 design specifications.

Like electricity, the demand for subsystem cooling is measured in kilowatts. The F135 was designed to handle a 15 kilowatts cooling demand, but that requirement has already doubled to an estimated 30 kilowatts. Cooling air is generated primarily by pulling bleed air from the engine and running it through heat exchangers. The F135 meets the 30 kilowatts demand by pulling more bleed air from the engine, which further reduces thrust. By the time Block 4 version of the F-35 is fully fielded in 2028, aircraft sub-systems will need a minimum of 47 kilowatts of cooling, and the amount required to meet follow-on capability demands range as high as 60 kilowatts. The F-35’s power plant will need to generate twice the cooling the F135 engine delivers.

5. The F135 engine will not meet future electrical power requirements.

Like the demands for thrust, range and cooling, the voltage generation specification that was designed into the JSF was wholly sufficient for the subsystems envisioned in 2001. However, the performance and tactical effective range of subsystems like a new APG-85 radar [PDF] and enhanced electronic warfare systems that will come with the F-35 Block 4 will require more electrical power. Add upgrades that are on the horizon like directed energy weapons, and you start hitting voltage stops. The F-35 Joint Program Office has already identified this challenge and signaled the need for an engine that can produce more kilowatts of power.

9 reasons why the F-35 needs a new engine - Breaking Defense

As the military decides between upgrading what it’s got and starting fresh, the Heritage Foundation’s John “JV” Venable argues the more expensive option now will save in the long run.

breakingdefense.com

And this is from a fighter with 180kN of thrust
The F-15EX has 2x130kN F110 engine, that means more electrical power generation for onboard a very powerful electronics like the APG-82v1 or the EPAWSS and many more.

From the engine alone you know that advanced model F-15 will be able to power more potential than a 40kN powered aircraft like the Kizilelma B, not to mention its flight characteristics, like how fast/high could it go, its energy conservation in a dogfight etc.


Really ? and this is from 2007 (Aviation week). None of the European AESA'ed airplane can do this. The Jamming power of the APG-81 (in which the APG-77v1 are very similar with) has the same amount of jamming power than 3x F-16 combined. To this day Eurocanards still uses external jamming pod like the Arexis, while in the APG-77/77v1 and APG-81 it is embedded in the radar itself.

and yes both the F-22 and F-35 operate with the highest rated engine ever put on a fighter jet (f119 and F135).

look more here

How does the F-15C's APG-63(V)3 stack up to the APG-81 and APG-77(V)1? Is it the most capable radar on a fighter aircraft in the world li...

Answer (1 of 2): Thank you for A2A. The APG-63(v)3 (F-15C) and APG-82 (F-15E) are 3rd gen. AESA radars and should be having similar number of T/R modules as APG-77. A direct comparison is difficult since we still don’t have any picture of APG-63v3’s TRMs. The APG-63(v)3 and especially APG-82 ar...

www.quora.com

Like wtf man, F-35 can't even generate 3xF-16,

And as i said before, engine performance is important because of the loss of performance from the shaft after you get energy from it, BUT after a level it doesn't mean much, you can get (and they did) 1MW from a SINGLE F110 (and lost only 1.5k lbs), electric generators are not a part of the engine, they are separate (known as EPS)

Uh and no, non 5th gens use pods or wingtips as they don't have stealth concern, and nearly all AESA arrays can do EW and ED, with EF radars being one of the best, developed by Leonardo.
Also keep in mind that AN/APG-77(v)1 and 81 is now old, thus USAF wants to change it

How fast an aircraft could go, or what kind of agility it would have is not just related to thrust, it is related to literally everything, size, shape, weight, thrust, load, wing shape and all.


What you should be looking here is that Kızılelma has very low drag by design and high lift, also it carries AAM's in the bays and has EOTS integrated into it, which means you won't get drag and lift penalties from carrying them under the wing or the body.

Also, you should be looking at TWR, pure thrust doesn't mean anything, if it was the way then heavy lifters would be the most agile ones

 

[Radonsider]

Regarding that turkey is part of NATO , do you guys think that the KizilElma and the TAI TF-X would benefit the MIDS-JTRS Link -16 for secure and fast comms ?

They are subject to US export licenses, if TurAF wants it they might try to get those, other than that we have our own links and more that are underway (one of the most important is ASELSAN IVDL)

 

[Latebra Factum]

They are subject to US export licenses, if TurAF wants it they might try to get those, other than that we have our own links and more that are underway (one of the most important is ASELSAN IVDL)

the MIDS-JTRS Link-16 is the most potent and secure comms for aircrafts and ground-control units in the world, dedicated to coalition and allied forces , i would suppose that it will be used at some point , or maybe Turkey wants to be more independent from NATO and US restrictions , which i support

 

[Radonsider]

the MIDS-JTRS Link-16 is the most potent and secure comms for aircrafts and ground-control units in the world, dedicated to coalition and allied forces , i would suppose that it will be used at some point , or maybe Turkey wants to be more independent from NATO and US restrictions , which i support

Well in todays world Link-16 transfer rate is not enough, so that's why we are developing our own stuff

 

[Latebra Factum]

Well in todays world Link-16 transfer rate is not enough, so that's why we are developing our own stuff

the link 16 has a rate of at least 57 kilobits per second , am i right ?

 

[Radonsider]

the link 16 has a rate of at least 57 kilobits per second , am i right ?

Yes, iirc with a different mode it can reach 117

 

[Latebra Factum]

Yes, iirc with a different mode it can reach 117

so you've said you're developing your own version , which means Turkey is heading towards a full A2/AD airspace with independent command and control infrastructure

 

[Latebra Factum]

If turkey stays at this momentum , i can see it as the ruling military power by 2030 , even exceeding the nearby powers , with sat links between aircrafts and drones , indigenously made tactical communication systems and 5th gen drones , that's an overkill

 

[Gary]

Like wtf man, F-35 can't even generate 3xF-16,

sorry not three, but four. A flight of two F-35 blinded a "red air" flight of 8 F-16. That is just how good the 35 is

“The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a national border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost 'Niki' Luijsterburg, the squadron commander, was responsible for the adversaries.​

​

We figured that the F-35's stealth would keep us out of harm's way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximise the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target.​

​

To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the 'Blue Air' F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.”​

​

– Lt Col Ian 'Gladys' Knight, Commander of 323rd Test and Evaluation Squadron, Royal Netherlands Air Force. (Source: Out of The Shadows: RNLAF Exercises with F-35A – Combat Air Magazine. May 2018)​

​

Uh and no, non 5th gens use pods or wingtips as they don't have stealth concern, and nearly all AESA arrays can do EW and ED, with EF radars being one of the best, developed by Leonardo.

I clearly mention Eurocanards (Rafale, EF200, and Gripen), none of which are 5th gen and still uses external pod for offensive EW.

What you should be looking here is that Kızılelma has very low drag by design and high lift, also it carries AAM's in the bays and has EOTS integrated into it, which means you won't get drag and lift penalties from carrying them under the wing or the body.

In which the F15 happens to also have high lift design and happens to have a more powerful engine (and basically more powerful everything). So unless the F-15 are fighting the Kizilelma's with full drop tanks attached on each of its wing, they will still be superior in that particular scenario.

Sidewinders and AMRAAMS are not that big penalties for an F-15, not in 1982, 1991, 2003 etc.

I mean why come up with idea of Kizilelma going against F-15 in the first place ? the more appropriate match would be the TF-X.

 

[Afif]

sorry not three, but four. A flight of two F-35 blinded a "red air" flight of 8 F-16.

I think he is talking about engine's electricity generation power.

 

[Radonsider]

sorry not three, but four. A flight of two F-35 blinded a "red air" flight of 8 F-16. That is just how good the 35 is

“The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a national border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost 'Niki' Luijsterburg, the squadron commander, was responsible for the adversaries.​

​

We figured that the F-35's stealth would keep us out of harm's way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximise the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target.​

​

To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the 'Blue Air' F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.”​

​

– Lt Col Ian 'Gladys' Knight, Commander of 323rd Test and Evaluation Squadron, Royal Netherlands Air Force. (Source: Out of The Shadows: RNLAF Exercises with F-35A – Combat Air Magazine. May 2018)​

​

I clearly mention Eurocanards (Rafale, EF200, and Gripen), none of which are 5th gen and still uses external pod for offensive EW.



In which the F15 happens to also have high lift design and happens to have a more powerful engine (and basically more powerful everything). So unless the F-15 are fighting the Kizilelma's with full drop tanks attached on each of its wing, they will still be superior in that particular scenario.

Sidewinders and AMRAAMS are not that big penalties for an F-15, not in 1982, 1991, 2003 etc.

I mean why come up with idea of Kizilelma going against F-15 in the first place ? the more appropriate match would be the TF-X.

F-35 has 2x80kVA generators, F-16 has 60kVA
Case closed


EF for example (as it is the one with most advanced avionics from the Europeans) can use both the pods and radar, think of it like F-35 barracuda and APG-81

I am not really comparing, just answering.


F-15 would lose much with equipping weapons and pods, every aircraft does
You know where most of "X can supercruise" comes from? It is because most can supercruise without weapons, but drag and weight makes it not possible to do after equipping them.


F-15 has bigger and more powerful engines because it is heavier, Kızılelma has smaller because it is lighter, MTOW of KE is just 6 tons, at combat load it would probably be around 4.5 tons with a 10000lbf engine, i don't get why it is hard to understand that it is about scale, F-15 might have more powerful engines but it doesn't make it superior, especially in BVR where F-15(EX) would get trashed by its enormously high RCS

 

[Gary]

F-15 would lose much with equipping weapons and pods, every aircraft does
You know where most of "X can supercruise" comes from? It is because most can supercruise without weapons, but drag and weight makes it not possible to do after equipping them.


F-15 has bigger and more powerful engines because it is heavier, Kızılelma has smaller because it is lighter, MTOW of KE is just 6 tons, at combat load it would probably be around 4.5 tons with a 10000lbf engine, i don't get why it is hard to understand that it is about scale, F-15 might have more powerful engines but it doesn't make it superior,

You know the AMX Ghibli is not far at 6.7tons, but no one will pit an AMX against F-15s

In a full takeoff mode (MTOW) the F-15 310000kg (304kN) weight with 260kN thrust generate TWR of 0.85
But that's because of F-15 large payload capacity. Its empty weight is at 14.5 tons, add a payload of maybe 4x AIM-9 and 2x AIM-120 and lets say it becomes 15 tons. 15ton ,add the 2x F110 GE 129 (260kN total ) and you get 1.76 TWR

KE 6 tons with 44kn thrust is at 0.7 TWR.

So the F-15EX with full payload would actually be faster, more agile than KE B.

trashed by its enormously high RCS

and happens to be equipped with enormously big radar, very capable self defense suit, very agile and fast.

 

[Gary]

EF for example (as it is the one with most advanced avionics from the Europeans) can use both the pods and radar, think of it like F-35 barracuda and APG-81

The ones known for offensive EW, is the ECRS MK2 equipped jets, none of which are operational...yet.

 

[Radonsider]

You know the AMX Ghibli is not far at 6.7tons, but no one will pit an AMX against F-15s

In a full takeoff mode (MTOW) the F-15 310000kg (304kN) weight with 260kN thrust generate TWR of 0.85
But that's because of F-15 large payload capacity. Its empty weight is at 14.5 tons, add a payload of maybe 4x AIM-9 and 2x AIM-120 and lets say it becomes 15 tons. 15ton ,add the 2x F110 GE 129 (260kN total ) and you get 1.76 TWR

KE 6 tons with 44kn thrust is at 0.7 TWR.

So the F-15EX with full payload would actually be faster, more agile than KE B.


and happens to be equipped with enormously big radar, very capable self defense suit, very agile and fast.

You seem to lose it, how can you compare AMX to KE, they have completely different aerodynamics, cmon man


Another thing you forget is fuel, you cannot just add weapons' weight and call it operational or so.


Another thing you lose is stealth has the edge over the radars.

 

[Zafer]

The US would break ????? How's that , a country with the most advanced fighters and air defenses, missile defenses, EW systems, AEW&Cs , SRADs , BVRAAMs ,the most powerful workforce and economy in the world, the most powerful industrial machine in the world, the most advanced Recon, espionnage, thermal reconnaissance, ISTAR satellites , the most potent C3I,C4I.C4ISTAR and C5I infrastructures, the most secure link in the world :Link 16(MIDS-JTRS) ,the poweful land force in the world,the most powerful naval forces in the world and the most advanced air fleet history with the longest combat experience . All of this isn't enough. And vietnam was a different age, if it was today, Vietnam would fall in a matter of hours

The dollar that enabled all this is crumbling.

 

[Gary]

You seem to lose it, how can you compare AMX to KE, they have completely different aerodynamics, cmon man

You seems to have a problem with the aerodynamics but somehow completely forgot that Kizilelma has a totally different thrust and payload class with the F-15 especially late model ones like the EX

Another thing you forget is fuel, you cannot just add weapons' weight and call it operational or so.

Look carefully I even put the F-15 in its maximum allowable weight (MTOW) and in the end the F-15 still out power the Kizilema

Another thing you lose is stealth has the edge over the radars.

Yes, but by what degree ?

KE is not a VLO or ELO aircraft, some estimate puts it in the 0.24m² RCS range.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506932248859267074

advanced model F-15 APG-82 guaranteed to have it's detection range reduced due to low observable features but this is not as extreme as you think. Remember APG-81 is the largest most powerful radar out there with the exception of maybe the APG -77v1 and 81 duo.

Its self protection suite, the EPAWSS will be sufficient to protect not only against incoming missile but hostile radar.

Passive detection (like from the EPAWSS) is actually usually longer than active transmitter like the APG-81.

And depending if you actually go against a mere foreign F-15EX operator or you go against USAF operated F-15EX the results from that hypothetical air battle could be different. Remember the USAF (together with IAF [Israel] and PLAAF) is the only air force that has extensively tested 5th gen against 4.5th gen. So they must know a thing or two about defending against 5th gen jets.

F-15EX Wins Some, Loses Some in Northern Edge | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The F-15EX both shot down some adversaries and was shot down itself during the recent Northern Edge wargame in Alaska.

www.airandspaceforces.com