TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Radonsider

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You seems to have a problem with the aerodynamics but somehow completely forgot that Kizilelma has a totally different thrust and payload class with the F-15 especially late model ones like the EX

Look carefully I even put the F-15 in its maximum allowable weight (MTOW) and in the end the F-15 still out power the Kizilema

Yes, but by what degree ?

KE is not a VLO or ELO aircraft, some estimate puts it in the 0.24m² RCS range.


advanced model F-15 APG-81/81v1 guaranteed to have it's detection range reduced due to low observable features but this is not as extreme as you think. Remember APG-81 is the largest most powerful radar out there with the exception of maybe the APG -77v1 and 81 duo.

Its self protection suite, the EPAWSS will be sufficient to protect not only against incoming missile but hostile radar.

Passive detection (like from the EPAWSS) is actually usually longer than active transmitter like the APG-81.

And depending if you actually go against a mere foreign F-15EX operator or you go against USAF operated F-15EX the results from that hypothetical air battle could be different. Remember the USAF (together with IAF [Israel] and PLAAF) is the only air force that has extensively tested 5th gen against 4.5th gen. So they must know a thing or two about defending against 5th gen jets.

And that's what i am saying, they have different aerodynamics, but you tried to dodge that, especially by giving example of AMX.


Again, you are wrong, even if you take 31ton or 38 ton, F-15EX and KE end up with similar TWR,



An estimate which doesn't account RAM, RAS, not even a model of the current KE and it is PEC and still gets 0.24, this number would be much lower in a real config.

+Even if it is 0.2m², and let's say F-15EX radar can detect a 1m2 from 150km, KE would be detected from around 65km and if KE is using a radar that can detect 1m² from 100km, it would detect F-15EX from (8-10m²) 160km





The last part, who operates it is definitely important, and i touched on this in my previous posts with someone else
 

Trakya_forever

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Come on KE RCS value will be less than 0,2 it is for sure. It is only shape and design. Composite material and possible RAM not included for this estimate.

Also for F16, F15, Rafale and EF these are empty RCS values. No pods, no weapons. With them there will be huge increase in RCS values.
 

Radonsider

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Come on KE RCS value will be less than 0,2 it is for sure. It is only shape and design. Composite material and possible RAM not included for this estimate.

Also for F16, F15, Rafale and EF these are empty RCS values. No pods, no weapons. With them there will be huge increase in RCS values.
Exactly
 

Trakya_forever

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On the other hand, do you really think that American F35s and others have the same capabilities in terms of radar and ew suites? If so, you will be really disappointed:)
You will pay 1.5 billion dollars get 10 F35s and will be a nightmare for even US Navy carrier group. Wake up, you are dreaming. Come to the real world.

There are three types of F35. For Americans, for its real partners and others. Nobody sells you this technology for money in the world. If you are lucky, you can get it from Aliens maybe.
 
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Gary

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And that's what i am saying, they have different aerodynamics, but you tried to dodge that, especially by giving example of AMX.
I dodge nothing, you point aerodynamics, even though there's no data that suggest that the AMX could or couldn't be as agile as the KE

So I came up with things that has numbers instead, thrust and payload.

You point aerodynamics as a differentiator of the two (AMX and KE) while I point thrust and payload as a differentiator, at the very least my differentiator has ready numbers available

Again, you are wrong, even if you take 31ton or 38 ton, F-15EX and KE end up with similar TWR,
In an Air-Air configuration the F-15 will not be carrying payload such as in Air-Ground mission. In a typical air-air config, F-15 payload are usually 4x AIM-120 + 4x AIM-9 totalled at 988kg (<1 ton) and sometimes drop tanks which will be ejected in combat.

14 tons empty + 1 ton + 6 tons fuel = 21 tons

21 tons = 205.9kN ~206 kN
TWR = 260kN/206kN = 1.26

Kizilelma empty weigh without weapons (6 tons-1.5tons) = 4.5 tons =44.1 ~44 kN
TWR = 44/44 = 1

So the KE clean without weapons is still underpowered against an F-15 with 8 missiles.

An estimate which doesn't account RAM, RAS, not even a model of the current KE and it is PEC and still gets 0.24, this number would be much lower in a real config.
I'd be happy if you have and could post alternate suggestions with source.
+Even if it is 0.2m², and let's say F-15EX radar can detect a 1m2 from 150km, KE would be detected from around 65km and if KE is using a radar that can detect 1m² from 100km, it would detect F-15EX from (8-10m²) 160km
There's actually a mathematical formula for it that I saw once , I'll try find one, till then this is guessing
The last part, who operates it is definitely important, and i touched on this in my previous posts with someone else
True, F-15EX operated by the USAF actually has scored kill against US 5th gen jet.

Don't know if other potential operator of the Eagle II could do this.
 

Trakya_forever

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Why do you compete 10-15 million USD unmanned drone with F15EX, F35, F22? And of course always one on one situation. KE and more is a new page. It will have new and unattended strategies. We will wait and see the consequences in time. There is no need to match KE with the most sophisticated fighters in the world. War is the totality of weapons and tactics and KE will be only an element for this.
 
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Radonsider

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I dodge nothing, you point aerodynamics, even though there's no data that suggest that the AMX could or couldn't be as agile as the KE

So I came up with things that has numbers instead, thrust and payload.

You point aerodynamics as a differentiator of the two (AMX and KE) while I point thrust and payload as a differentiator, at the very least my differentiator has ready numbers available


In an Air-Air configuration the F-15 will not be carrying payload such as in Air-Ground mission. In a typical air-air config, F-15 payload are usually 4x AIM-120 + 4x AIM-9 totalled at 988kg (<1 ton) and sometimes drop tanks which will be ejected in combat.

14 tons empty + 1 ton + 6 tons fuel = 21 tons

21 tons = 205.9kN ~206 kN
TWR = 260kN/206kN = 1.26

Kizilelma empty weigh without weapons (6 tons-1.5tons) = 4.5 tons =44.1 ~44 kN
TWR = 44/44 = 1

So the KE clean without weapons is still underpowered against an F-15 with 8 missiles.


I'd be happy if you have and could post alternate suggestions with source.

There's actually a mathematical formula for it that I saw once , I'll try find one, till then this is guessing

True, F-15EX operated by the USAF actually has scored kill against US 5th gen jet.

Don't know if other potential operator of the Eagle II could do this.
Uh you can look into wing, inlet, LEX, vertical stab, body shape and so to determine if the aircraft is made for agility or something else.


As i said before thrust by itself is not meaningless, and especially when you in BVR combat, tho yes being higher and faster gives you a range advantage for your missiles, which F-15EX has.

4.7 tons of KE to 21 tons of don't have much of a difference in TWR, around 0.3

Uhh that's literally common sense, a PEC will reflect 100% of the EMW.
With a good RAM you can reduce up to -30dBsm
 

Gary

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Why do you compete 10-15 million USD unmanned drone with F15EX, F35, F22? And of course always one on one situation. KE and more is a new page. It will have new and unattended strategies. We will wait and see the consequences in time. There is no need to match KE with the most sophisticated fighters in the world. War is the totality of weapons and tactics.
My whole post is about this. Why compare two very different class of planes ? And whats with some members that come up with some fantasy post like how easily KE will make F-16/15 obsolete.

Why not TFX against an F-15…? Its actually a more realistic one.
 

Radonsider

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My whole post is about this. Why compare two very different class of planes ? And whats with some members that come up with some fantasy post like how easily KE will make F-16/15 obsolete.

Why not TFX against an F-15…? Its actually a more realistic one.
My whole post is about this. Why compare two very different class of planes ? And whats with some members that come up with some fantasy post like how easily KE will make F-16/15 obsolete.

Why not TFX against an F-15…? Its actually a more realistic one.
The problem is you kind of doing it wrong, essentially your idea is correct but arguements are not.
 

Gary

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Uh you can look into wing, inlet, LEX, vertical stab, body shape and so to determine if the aircraft is made for agility or something else.

I could've looked it all day and no numbers would come out of it. When the MiG-25 first came, the common wisdom in the CIA and US military intelligence is that the MiG-25 is a super agile plane due to the sheer size of the wing. Now we know that's not the case
As i said before thrust by itself is not meaningless, and especially when you in BVR combat, tho yes being higher and faster gives you a range advantage for your missiles, which F-15EX has.

Again, while the low observable treatment of the. kE guarantee a degree of reduced detection for the F-15…what we don't know is how much
4.7 tons of KE to 21 tons of don't have much of a difference in TWR, around 0.3
Yes, one is heavily armed, the other is clean. If the KE is armed the TWR dropped to below 1
Uhh that's literally common sense, a PEC will reflect 100% of the EMW.
With a good RAM you can reduce up to -30dBsm
Again with what mathematical formula do you come up with this ? How do you even come with the number 65km and 160km in post #8797 I would be happy to know.
 

Radonsider

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I could've looked it all day and no numbers would come out of it. When the MiG-25 first came, the common wisdom in the CIA and US military intelligence is that the MiG-25 is a super agile plane due to the sheer size of the wing. Now we know that's not the case


Again, while the low observable treatment of the. kE guarantee a degree of reduced detection for the F-15…what we don't know is how much

Yes, one is heavily armed, the other is clean. If the KE is armed the TWR dropped to below 1

Again with what mathematical formula do you come up with this ? How do you even come with the number 65km and 160km in post #8797 I would be happy to know.
if the KE is armed it doesn't go below 1, you don't take full fuel load everytime.

And comparing a 3x sized fighter and it's capacity to KE is, ridiculous.

Literally radar range formula (with ofc not changing some parameters because we couldn't otherwise) but in general if you want 1/2 detection distance you need 1/16 less RCS
 

Gary

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if the KE is armed it doesn't go below 1, you don't take full fuel load everytime.
And you think the F-15 2000lb (6 tons) of fuel that I inserted earlier just stay that way during flight ?
And comparing a 3x sized fighter and it's capacity to KE is, ridiculous.
Not ridiculous, the F-15EX is known and confirmed to score hits against an even deadlier (V) LO aircraft

Literally radar range formula (with ofc not changing some parameters because we couldn't otherwise) but in general if you want 1/2 detection distance you need 1/16 less RCS
But then you haven't entered everything, the peak power , gain etc.

The formula itself is quite complex, I'll post it once I manage to find one and post here.
 

Radonsider

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And you think the F-15 2000lb (6 tons) of fuel that I inserted earlier just stay that way during flight ?

Not ridiculous, the F-15EX is known and confirmed to score hits against an even deadlier (V) LO aircraft


But then you haven't entered everything, the peak power , gain etc.

The formula itself is quite complex, I'll post it once I manage to find one and post here.
And what? Score hits from what range? In which environment, claims like those are not so healthy.

Yes i didn't, but if you know what range the radar detects a Xm² target, then you can calculate the others, i took AN/APG-81's claimed stat for F-15EX, 1m² from 150km
 

Radonsider

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Aselsan's patent application for RAM radar absorber material is number 2016-209181.
Absorption capacity >15 db at selected frequency, >20 db at specific frequency range.
Used materials; Fiberglass woven thermoset resin coating, closed cell foam structure, lossy magnetic/dielectric filler.

Hmm, so they improved it to 30dB in those 4 years? Noice
 

Afif

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And what? Score hits from what range? In which environment, claims like those are not so healthy.

Yes i didn't, but if you know what range the radar detects a Xm² target, then you can calculate the others, i took AN/APG-81's claimed stat for F-15EX, 1m² from 150km
Bro, Boeing claimed that their new F15EX has frontal RCS of an f35 due to extensive use of RAM.
As you said before, good RAM can reduce RCS up to -30dBsm.
So, i think we need to fit that in our calculation for F15EX. Obviously, USA should have the best RAM tech in the world as they are in that business for half of a century.
from 150km, KE would be detected from around 65km and if KE is using a radar that can detect 1m² from 100km, it would detect F-15EX from (8-10m²) 160km
I think we also need to take into consideration that KEs radio transmission could be picked up by f15EXs EW suite and vice versa. So, they may not get to use their radar against each other as much as we are thinking here, just for the shake of maintaining stealth.
 

Radonsider

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Bro, Boeing claimed that their new F15EX has frontal RCS of an f35 due to extensive use of RAM.
As you said before, good RAM can reduce RCS up to -30dBsm.
So, i think we need to fit that in our calculation for F15EX. Obviously, USA should have the best RAM tech in the world as they are in that business for half of a century.

I think we also need to take into consideration that KEs radio transmission could be picked up by f15EXs EW suite and vice versa. So, they may not get to use their radar against each other as much as we are thinking here, just for the shake of maintaining stealth.
Second part is alr, that's definitely correct,
but there is no possibility of F-15EX having low levels of RCS, exposed fan blades, no canopy coating, no geometry etc.


Main problem is those fan blades that are directly exposed to enemy radars
 

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