TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Ryder

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When was the last time a country like Russia expressed worries about likely transfer of a technology to other states? (If it is true) Russia is talking as if It is about nuclear tech. The effectiveness of Turkish technology against Russian hardwares can be seen in these speeches. About transfer of drone tech, They are lying.

Russians have their pride hurt remember these Russians see us as inferior and the type of people that have to be bullied since they got their noses bloodied in Syria, Libya and Karabag are making excuses on how the Turks outfoxes them.

It makes their blood boil that they cant bully us as they used to.
 

TheInsider

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There was some shit that went under the table. As far as i know, TEI did some IP rights infringement under the table that is why the project kept classified.
 

Zafer

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There was some shit that went under the table. As far as i know, TEI did some IP rights infringement under the table that is why the project kept classified.
IP rights are per country, if they are not taken by someone in a particular country you can use them as you please in that country. Well, if they are taken then you can be sued for it.

We expected PG115 to be used for TB2 but it never happened, so there must be a good reason.
 

Inspector_spacetime

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TB2 was using widespread foreign parts. Foreign propellers(Germany based company), foreigns comm sistems (VIASAT), foreign hf systems (Garmin), foreign engines(rotax), foreign payload(Wescam) even foreign fuel pumps(some UK based company) There were so many foreign subsystems i lost count of it. Many of those systems replaced with national counterparts because of embargoes. Today Tb2 is overwhelmingly a national product but they lied for years to the Turkish people. If there were no embargoes in place nothing would have replaced you can be sure of it. This is how much Baykar cares about national subsystems. They care so much that they are the local distributor and maintenance facility of Wescam FLIRs.

PG-115 is developed for Herons because we wanted Aselflir-300 on them. To carry heavy Aselflir-300, modifications had to be done on the 100hp engine of Herons.

CATS is worse than MX-15D
A little heavier but this is not the important part.
CATS uses a 640*512 IR camera on the other hand MX-15D uses 1280*1024 ( or 720). Its IR sensor is a full generation ahead. Baykar never wanted to take that performance hit for the sake of national industry until Canada embargoed Turkiye. Aselsan works on 1280*1024 and 1280*720 IR sensors but Aselsan needs a few years to come up with a product. Aselsan has CATS in serial production, offers DASS and Aselflir-400(1024*768) as a serial production-ready product(but probably we will skip producing those), and has Aselflir-500C(c for compact) Aselflir-600 projects going on( they will use 1280*720,1280*1024 IR sensors).
This strategy is industry wide. The same thing happend with Atak helicopter, SOM missile's, etc. I believe it was Temel Kotil that explained this using Lego as an example. He explained that you make a final product using Lego pieces that come from various sources, be it domestic and foreign. At the beginning most components are foreign, but as time goes on for every individual Lego piece/component an indiginous version gets developed and the localized % of the final product becomes higher and higher. I heard this concept from other higher ups within the industry, but the Lego example was the one that stuck for me. The higher ups never lied about this strategy and have been transparent and known for a while, if you are referring to the 100% yerli ve milli thing, that is a whole nother topic and its more targeted to effecting the morale in positive way. But everyone that knows about economies of scale and production knows that 100% localization is not feasible. Regarding the strategy for instance ATAK, the first few ATAK helicopters had more foreign products then newer one's. Eventually when the engine is localized and ready, the local percentage of ATAK will be at the desired/targeted level (probably not 100% though as that is not feasible in most cases). Milgem frigate's as well, they started off at 20, 30% or 40% I dont really remember it. It is now at more than 60% the last I heard. In the original road map of Altay we can see this same strategy as well. The original plan was for the first 250 tanks to use foreign engine, until the local one was ready, tank 251 and onward was supposed to have the local engine. I may have a few mistakes regarding the details with numbers because I am trying to write it from memory, but my point is the strategy behind these projects.

Therefore it doesn't really suprise me to read that the roadmap followed on TB2 was like this as well, because that is the general strategy that SSB and the defense industry as a whole has been following for years now and the main reason why the industry is succesful. As the industry matures, it can afford to start new projects with a higher local percentage because components are more readily available from within the country as well as technological know how. I am sure Gokbey starts off with a higher localized percentage, compared to how ATAK started off for instance. And future helicopter projects after Gokbey will probably start off with an even higher localized level as compared to Gokbey due to the general industry having matured more as well as local engine's being readily available etc.

I don't really know how many UAV's we have in total, but it is safe to assume that most of these uav's in the inventory use Wescam FLIRs (almost all of TB2's and some Anka's). Some Anka's were eqiuped with Wescam's as well when Starfire's were blocked, during this time CATS didn't meet the requirements: https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...rts-serving-turkish-naval-forces-command-3035
For Anka's they also opted for Wescam instead of CATS due to performance issue. This suggests that the decisions regarding which FLIRs to be installed was done by the end user/military and not Baykar or TAI.

Having so much of these Wescam FLIRs in the inventory, than it is only natural that maintenance as well as distribution needs to be done by someone. According to your post Baykar took on the distribution and maintenence of Wescam FLIRs. But that doesn't automtically mean that Baykar doesn't care about national subsystems. Baykar followed the exact same strategy under the coordination of SSB, on top of that, when CATS started to be serially produced in october of last year, they immidiately started implementing them on TB2. They were doing flight tests in the first week of november. The leadership at Baykar stress the importance of indigous production every time they get the chance. This is also backed by how they sponsor and organize events like Teknofest and T3 workshops to inspire our youth to persue technological and scientific endeavors. If anything, I would argue that Baykar is the company that spearheads the importance of indigous production and innovation.
 
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Zafer

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Today Tb2 is overwhelmingly a national product but they lied for years to the Turkish people. If there were no embargoes in place nothing would have replaced you can be sure of it. This is how much Baykar cares about national subsystems. They care so much that they are the local distributor and maintenance facility of Wescam FLIRs.
End product quality is paramount, you need to make sure you use top quality components to make top quality unmanned combat air vehicles. If the weight of FLIR was 10kg more and it could see a blurry image and other components didn't work as well as they did we highly likely would not be talking about success of TB2s, the whole world is talking. The performance of every component adds up to make the end product. You can not race a sprinter and not give him the right shoes and expect him to win a split second margin. Only those who want to be top notch will know this. You can't make this happen with a dicey supply chain, you need to make sure components keep coming. Did you know that main blocks of PD170 engines were still supplied from a foreign supplier as of IDEF-2019, I am still unaware if this situation has changed.
 

Philip the Arab

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50 UAVs being produced in KSA in 5 years,although I wonder how much is actually being locally made.

1618374161156.png
 
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Yasar_TR

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OK! These pictures are nice but the latest news about it is even nicer!
It completed it’s 30000+ft trials (with it’s landing gear inside) with success.
 

TheInsider

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Then you shouldnt have told tall tales to people. Baykar should have said even though TB2 is a %100 national design, most of TB2s subsystems are not national but we are working with our partners to nationalize them. They were talking about %90+ national contribution since like 2014. Wescam MX-15 alone worth i don't know maybe like 1/3 of total cost. The national contribution was like %50 at best until this year.
 
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TheInsider

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This strategy is industry wide. The same thing happend with Atak helicopter, SOM missile's, etc. I believe it was Temel Kotil that explained this using Lego as an example. He explained that you make a final product using Lego pieces that come from various sources, be it domestic and foreign. At the beginning most components are foreign, but as time goes on for every individual Lego piece/component an indiginous version gets developed and the localized % of the final product becomes higher and higher. I heard this concept from other higher ups within the industry, but the Lego example was the one that stuck for me. The higher ups never lied about this strategy and have been transparent and known for a while, if you are referring to the 100% yerli ve milli thing, that is a whole nother topic and its more targeted to effecting the morale in positive way. But everyone that knows about economies of scale and production knows that 100% localization is not feasible. Regarding the strategy for instance ATAK, the first few ATAK helicopters had more foreign products then newer one's. Eventually when the engine is localized and ready, the local percentage of ATAK will be at the desired/targeted level (probably not 100% though as that is not feasible in most cases). Milgem frigate's as well, they started off at 20, 30% or 40% I dont really remember it. It is now at more than 60% the last I heard. In the original road map of Altay we can see this same strategy as well. The original plan was for the first 250 tanks to use foreign engine, until the local one was ready, tank 251 and onward was supposed to have the local engine. I may have a few mistakes regarding the details with numbers because I am trying to write it from memory, but my point is the strategy behind these projects.

Therefore it doesn't really suprise me to read that the roadmap followed on TB2 was like this as well, because that is the general strategy that SSB and the defense industry as a whole has been following for years now and the main reason why the industry is succesful. As the industry matures, it can afford to start new projects with a higher local percentage because components are more readily available from within the country as well as technological know how. I am sure Gokbey starts off with a higher localized percentage, compared to how ATAK started off for instance. And future helicopter projects after Gokbey will probably start off with an even higher localized level as compared to Gokbey due to the general industry having matured more as well as local engine's being readily available etc.

I don't really know how many UAV's we have in total, but it is safe to assume that most of these uav's in the inventory use Wescam FLIRs (almost all of TB2's and some Anka's). Some Anka's were eqiuped with Wescam's as well when Starfire's were blocked, during this time CATS didn't meet the requirements: https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...rts-serving-turkish-naval-forces-command-3035
For Anka's they also opted for Wescam instead of CATS due to performance issue. This suggests that the decisions regarding which FLIRs to be installed was done by the end user/military and not Baykar or TAI.

Having so much of these Wescam FLIRs in the inventory, than it is only natural that maintenance as well as distribution needs to be done by someone. According to your post Baykar took on the distribution and maintenence of Wescam FLIRs. But that doesn't automtically mean that Baykar doesn't care about national subsystems. Baykar followed the exact same strategy under the coordination of SSB, on top of that, when CATS started to be serially produced in october of last year, they immidiately started implementing them on TB2. They were doing flight tests in the first week of november. The leadership at Baykar stress the importance of indigous production every time they get the chance. This is also backed by how they sponsor and organize events like Teknofest and T3 workshops to inspire our youth to persue technological and scientific endeavors. If anything, I would argue that Baykar is the company that spearheads the importance of indigous production and innovation.
I know the strategy very well and i'm not against it. What I'm against is to advertise a product %90+ national while it is not. We never advertised Atak or SOM as a %90+ national product.
 

what

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Then you shouldnt have told tall tales to people. Baykar should have said even though TB2 is a %100 national design, most of TB2s subsystems are not national but we are working with our partners to nationalize them. They were talking about %90+ national contribution since like 2014. Wescam MX-15 alone worth i don't know maybe like 1/3 of total cost. The national contribution was like %50 at best until this year.

You're right, I wonder how many companies to the same thing.
In need of more attention and PR for your product? Claim its 100% Milli.
 

Nutuk

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They talk mostly like milli tasarim. National design.

You can design something 100% but that does not mean all subsystems are national. You can use ready products in your design.

There is a lot of noise and misunderstanding when talking about national products
 

TheInsider

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Yes, most of the time companies say "milli tasarım" or "%100 milli tasarım" which translates to national design or %100 national design. Companies never give a national contribution percent. Baykar was an exception they were bragging like %90+ national and local. FOr example Roketsan or Tubitak Sage always say "national" stand-off cruise missile but we know its engine, radar altimeter(recently nationalized via Meteksan) etc were foreign.

Unproven claims= Lying=Unfair competition.
 

TheInsider

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Of course it is normal. What is not normal is claiming you have %90+ national parts while you were using widespread foreign parts.
 

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