TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371202355383963648

Investment of $ 1 Billion for Bayraktar TB-2
I guess the deal is being signed with Ethiopia.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371262333410893824

The source of allegations is here

 

[Ardabas34]

Are they preparing for a war? I know they had some dam issues with Egypt.

 

[Glass🚬]

Are they preparing for a war? I know they had some dome issues with Egypt.

Egypt threatens to strike their dam every other day and they also have some low-key internal conflict with one of their minorities.

 

[Oublious]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371202355383963648

Investment of $ 1 Billion for Bayraktar TB-2
I guess the deal is being signed with Ethiopia.

Could it be more defence deals like first Hisar customer?

 

[Kartal1]

Egypt threatens to strike their dam every other day and they also have some low-key interior conflict with one of their minorities.

While acquisition of drones would be extremely beneficial for every African country dealing with insurgency I don't see what purpose will TB-2 serve against the Egyptian Air Force. I also didn't understand in what way this investment will come. Will they buy drones? If so I don't think this is very rational decision but for sure beneficial for Turkey's economy.

 

[Glass🚬]

While acquisition of drones would be extremely beneficial for every African country dealing with insurgency I don't see what purpose will TB-2 serve against the Egyptian Air Force. I also didn't understand in what way this investment will come. Will they buy drones? If so I don't think this is very rational decision but for sure beneficial for Turkey's economy.

Egypt is an irrational actor, I wouldnt be surprised if they also directly threatend with a land war against ethiopia. These are the same people who gave away their waters to Greece and their islands to Saudi arabia.

 

[what]

1 bln €, they could probably buy the company for that money.

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

Engine has been recently avaliable? ANKA has been running on PD155-170 for years
E/O has been recently avaliable? Herons has been flying with Aselflir-300 for years
GNSS-GPS has been recently avaliable? What ANKA has been flying with when TB2s were jammed in Syria?

I am still telling this, no need to be biased towards a company, i am on equal basis for all and i evaluate them based on the jobs they have achieved.
BMC hasn't achieved anything in IFV - ACVs (wheeled or tracked) while FNSS did a lot.
So by being biased, people come to a point to ignore success of FNSS?

I don't really have any other words for this.

PD-155 engine's are too big for TB2's if I recall correctly. From my understanding Baykar started work on TB3 using PD-170 engine's. It is believed that TB3 will be bigger or have a bigger payload. Along with that as well, the engine's for TB2 are off the shelf engine's and embargoe's don't really effect the production of TB2's, as they can find alternatives to this engine: https://www.trthaber.com/haber/gundem/gokyuzunun-yeni-oyuncusu-yerli-motorla-gelecek-527093.html

Aselflir-300 was too heavy for TB. Same with CATS. There was quite a few kg's difference between CATS and Wescam, and I believe I read that the CATS didn't have as strong a camera as that of Wescam. But regardless of this, after the Canadian embargo on Wescam, they decided to implement CATS on TB2's:

The reason for choosing Wescam over CATS was for pragmatic and performance reasons, I am sure this was based on the needs and requests of the armed forces.

Edit:
the difference in Kg and performance might not have been between CATS and Wescam, but Wescam and another indigous solution, probably Aslelfir. CATS serial production started in October of 2020: https://www.trthaber.com/haber/bili...milli-gozunde-seri-uretim-mujdesi-521257.html
According to the youtube video, integration of CATS to TB2's in the same period. The video itself is from 6'th of November 2020.
So, when CATS became available they started work on implementing it into the TB2's quite fast.


Exactly right, FNSS, BMC, Otokar, Baykar, TAI, Sarsilmaz, Kale, etc. These are all strategic companies. Even Durmazlar (a non defence industry company) is a company with strategic value. In other words Turkey cannot afford to lose any of these companies. Or at the very least the know-how they carry. So name changes, fusions, take-overs etc are all tolerable. But losing these companies entirely, the state won't allow. For instance when BMC went broke, the state stept in, in order to guarantee its survival and sold the company in an auction in order to be privately owned.

 

[the]

There's no way they've bought $1bn worth of Bayraktar drones. if its around $1 million per drone, that would equal to 1000 drones. They haven't even produced a total of 500 TB2s, let alone an order for 1000.........

 

[Zafer]

There's no way they've bought $1bn worth of Bayraktar drones. if its around $1 million per drone, that would equal to 1000 drones. They haven't even produced a total of 500 TB2s, let alone an order for 1000.........

$ 1 mn is dirt cheap but I think it should be more like around $ 1.75 mn. And there is the cost of control stations where still more than 500 pieces of planes is a hefty proposition. These planes can be opportunistically used to bomb and rocket many things. Also Akıncı is in the pipeline and can be added to the mix along with a variety of munitions possibly bringing down the plane count to around two hundreds. But the video says $ 1.7bn (Canadian?).

 

[Anmdt]

PD-155 engine's are too big for TB2's if I recall correctly. From my understanding Baykar started work on TB3 using PD-170 engine's. It is believed that TB3 will be bigger or have a bigger payload. Along with that as well, the engine's for TB2 are off the shelf engine's and embargoe's don't really effect the production of TB2's, as they can find alternatives to this engine: https://www.trthaber.com/haber/gundem/gokyuzunun-yeni-oyuncusu-yerli-motorla-gelecek-527093.html

Aselflir-300 was too heavy for TB. Same with CATS. There was quite a few kg's difference between CATS and Wescam, and I believe I read that the CATS didn't have as strong a camera as that of Wescam. But regardless of this, after the Canadian embargo on Wescam, they decided to implement CATS on TB2's:

The reason for choosing Wescam over CATS was for pragmatic and performance reasons, I am sure this was based on the needs and requests of the armed forces.

Edit:
the difference in Kg and performance might not have been between CATS and Wescam, but Wescam and another indigous solution, probably Aslelfir. CATS serial production started in October of 2020: https://www.trthaber.com/haber/bili...milli-gozunde-seri-uretim-mujdesi-521257.html
According to the youtube video, integration of CATS to TB2's in the same period. The video itself is from 6'th of November 2020.
So, when CATS became available they started work on implementing it into the TB2's quite fast.


Exactly right, FNSS, BMC, Otokar, Baykar, TAI, Sarsilmaz, Kale, etc. These are all strategic companies. Even Durmazlar (a non defence industry company) is a company with strategic value. In other words Turkey cannot afford to lose any of these companies. Or at the very least the know-how they carry. So name changes, fusions, take-overs etc are all tolerable. But losing these companies entirely, the state won't allow. For instance when BMC went broke, the state stept in, in order to guarantee its survival and sold the company in an auction in order to be privately owned.

PG-115 has been around longer than PD-155, for domestic market they could use this one. Moreover, PG-115 can be used in place of Rotax engines on Herons, then definitely can be used directly in place of Baykar's.
There are no excuses i think:
CATS wasn't the only and the only , neither the first E/O, there was aselflir 300 etc. Yes heavy but it existed.
Moreover let us not forget Baykar is regional service center&authorized seller of the Wescam products. This information was on their website not long time ago if they haven't removed it.

Now imagine the tantrum if Otokar or FNSS or any other private company , ofcourse except BMC, was being authorized sellers/distributor for MTU products.

The problem is, not every company is being treated the same, they are all strategical but some are more strategical thus even common people and officials defend them at all costs.

Pragmatic and performance reasons: now i really wonder if these reasons will be reconsidered if BMCs engines performs worse than exported ones, or they will be defended to the end against other competitors for sake of being domestic.

 

[Combat-Master]

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey​

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey

Turkey is actively using Bayraktar TB series of combat drones in Libya. The technology for the drones was acquired from Israel, writes the Russian news agency FAN, noting that Israel, being surrounded by unfriendly Arab states, reached out to Turkey, the only ally in the region. The article...

uawire.org

 

[Combat-Master]

Meanwhile - "Russian" Drones..

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381704442337185795

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey​

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey

Turkey is actively using Bayraktar TB series of combat drones in Libya. The technology for the drones was acquired from Israel, writes the Russian news agency FAN, noting that Israel, being surrounded by unfriendly Arab states, reached out to Turkey, the only ally in the region. The article...

uawire.org

When was the last time a country like Russia expressed worries about likely transfer of a technology to other states? (If it is true) Russia is talking as if It is about nuclear tech. The effectiveness of Turkish technology against Russian hardwares can be seen in these speeches. About transfer of drone tech, They are lying.

 

[Combat-Master]

Baykar TB-3 P-1. . . . LOADING . . . . .

 

[Era_shield]

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey​

Russia accuses Israel of selling drone technology to Turkey

Turkey is actively using Bayraktar TB series of combat drones in Libya. The technology for the drones was acquired from Israel, writes the Russian news agency FAN, noting that Israel, being surrounded by unfriendly Arab states, reached out to Turkey, the only ally in the region. The article...

uawire.org

"...the drones of the Bayraktar family are very similar to the drones manufactured in Israel. This includes the appearance..."

Do Russians have eyes?

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

PG-115 has been around longer than PD-155, for domestic market they could use this one. Moreover, PG-115 can be used in place of Rotax engines on Herons, then definitely can be used directly in place of Baykar's.
There are no excuses i think:
CATS wasn't the only and the only , neither the first E/O, there was aselflir 300 etc. Yes heavy but it existed.
Moreover let us not forget Baykar is regional service center&authorized seller of the Wescam products. This information was on their website not long time ago if they haven't removed it.

Now imagine the tantrum if Otokar or FNSS or any other private company , ofcourse except BMC, was being authorized sellers/distributor for MTU products.

The problem is, not every company is being treated the same, they are all strategical but some are more strategical thus even common people and officials defend them at all costs.

Pragmatic and performance reasons: now i really wonder if these reasons will be reconsidered if BMCs engines performs worse than exported ones, or they will be defended to the end against other competitors for sake of being domestic.

The PG-115 engine is a classified engine, as far as I know. I personally never came across any information regarding this engine. The speculation surrounding this engine was about it potentially being used in a Harop type of suicide drone. As to why it wasn't used on TB2, I do not know. I am sure they had their reasons. The Rotax engine is an engine that hasn't got a strategical value in the sense that it isn't hard to find an alternative to it. If PG-115 engine hasn't been used, then I am sure SSB had a reason for it. We also got to consider that there are loads of information behind the scenes that we aren't aware of. A lot of variables and moving parts, starting from engine performance and whether TEI has issue's with it or not, the needs and demands of the military and TB2 itself, the unit costs per engine, are only a couple of things off the top of my head. And usually there are many other variables that can't be foreseen before they actually occur and based on all this dicisions are made.

Especially the unit cost per engine, I think, plays a big factor here.
For instance, the reason that we want to go 80%+ (and having all strategic components to at least have the know-how to make domestically), instead of 100% domestic is for feasibilty and costs per unit. Even strategic components can be imported, if it is cheaper per unit or if it otherwise serves our interests (trade deals with other countries), but wants to have the know-how of it incase there are embargoes, etc. The reasoning behind not using the PG115 engine could be this, or it could simply not be in serial production, or serial production has started but all available units are being reserved for a secret project like suicide drones for example. Like I said, there isn't much known about the PG115, or at least I don't know much about it, so all I can do is speculate.

If Otokar, BMC or FNSS were authorizid distributers or sellers of MTU products, I personally wouldn't mind. If it is regarding components that is. If they were selling end products like whole tanks, than I still wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't see the point considering the Turkish industries strategy. But these are business decisions and it is these companies's own perogative how they go about their business.
And sure, Flirs like Aselflir's did exist before which is fair enough and I acknowledged this in my previous post. But we also got to consider the performance demands of SSB and the military, on top of that how the flir would effect the aerodynamic and performance of TB2 and many other variables that we haven't thought of. I remember reading that Aselflir was causing balancing issue on ATAK when it was still being developed.

We gotta understand, we are looking from the outside and base our judgement and opinions on that. But those people in charge have way more information and performance data to make more sound decisions than us. And I can assure you, none of what the people say regarding things like this that they haven't already considered. They thought of all these arguments even before the product was made. They can't really answer us a lot of times either, because they are basing these decisions based on information and data that they aren't able or willing to share.

I agree that not every company is treated the same, but not in the way you think. I think there is a witch hunt going on against BMC and a little on Baykar currently. Less so on Baykar, but that is because of TB2's performance. BMC and Baykar are being defended by officials and common people is because BMC is being attacked due to political rhetoric. If something or someone is being attacked than naturally there will be those to defend it. The more important thing is to look at the how: what are the arguments used against it? What is the root cause and motive behind these arguments? etc. By objectively analysing this, we can get a fair understanding of what is going on. Same goes for Otokar by they way. I write the almost exact same arguments as I did in this posts if I see unfair critisizm and bashing of Otokar and Koc group (on youtube comments mostly). This is sad and unfair and it only serves for us to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Pragmatic and performance reasons will ofcourse be considered when Tumosan's and BMC's engine start rolling out. They will handle it like SSB have been systematically handling every other project. I am sure that a minor performance difference is tolerated for the sake of domesticity. We have seen many products and components that have gradually improved throughout the years with this aproach. The same tactics will most likely also be used on engine's. But if the performance issue's are more severe, then they will wait for the local product to mature (this happend with KTJ-3200 iirc), and look for imports as a stop-gap. Unless ofcourse there are embargoes in play as well as urgency, then even performance issue's will be less of a factor and make initial batches, etc. It all depends on which scenario plays out. We have seen a few delays over various projects for the sake of improving the products throughout the years. SSB, the military and the industry as a whole know what they are doing, and the overall strategy they have been following has been working out for more than a few decades. They have already started implementing Tumosan engine's in FNSS's 6x6's, so I am sure the demostic engine's performance are at a tolerable level at the least, we still need to see how they perform in the field once they start rolling out en masse, but even then improvements on these products will be made. It's a dynamic process. And yes, there will be problems regarding these various projects, but that is Murhpy's law.

 

[TheInsider]

TB2 was using widespread foreign parts. Foreign propellers(Germany based company), foreigns comm sistems (VIASAT), foreign hf systems (Garmin), foreign engines(rotax), foreign payload(Wescam) even foreign fuel pumps(some UK based company) There were so many foreign subsystems i lost count of it. Many of those systems replaced with national counterparts because of embargoes. Today Tb2 is overwhelmingly a national product but they lied for years to the Turkish people. If there were no embargoes in place nothing would have replaced you can be sure of it. This is how much Baykar cares about national subsystems. They care so much that they are the local distributor and maintenance facility of Wescam FLIRs.

PG-115 is developed for Herons because we wanted Aselflir-300 on them. To carry heavy Aselflir-300, modifications had to be done on the 100hp engine of Herons.

CATS is worse than MX-15D
A little heavier but this is not the important part.
CATS uses a 640*512 IR camera on the other hand MX-15D uses 1280*1024 ( or 720). Its IR sensor is a full generation ahead. Baykar never wanted to take that performance hit for the sake of national industry until Canada embargoed Turkiye. Aselsan works on 1280*1024 and 1280*720 IR sensors but Aselsan needs a few years to come up with a product. Aselsan has CATS in serial production, offers DASS and Aselflir-400(1024*768) as a serial production-ready product(but probably we will skip producing those), and has Aselflir-500C(c for compact) Aselflir-600 projects going on( they will use 1280*720,1280*1024 IR sensors).

 

[Nutuk]

Herons did also use Rotax, so if Heron uses PG115 it should be useful for TB2 too (without knowing the weight issues of PG115)

 

[Cabatli_TR]

PT3 Akinci completed high altitude and speed tests

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381975914263760898